What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving?

[Hizikyah]

I chose Annihilationism (Evil people will seize to exist at death) based on the statements about the second death, from which there is no resurrection, and the ashes beneath the feet.

That is Scriptural;

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Malakyah 3:16, "Then those who reverenced Yahweh spoke often one to another, and Yahweh paid attention and heard them; and a Book of Remembrance was written in His presence of those who gave reverence to Yahweh, and who thought upon, His Name."

 

[Word_Swordsman]

No, that is not an answer for those who are wicked. We are not talking about whether or not they were given an out or not. We are talking about whether or not the punishment is loving, fair, and just.

In other words, is it loving, fair, and just to throw somebody in a wood chipper for lying and or for speeding? Does it really matter if the country made sacrifices for it to be a crime free and loving environment? Should not the punishment itself be taken under consideration?

Also, please vote in the Poll.

Will you hold God to your understanding of the depth of His love?

Recently an 85 year old man passed a stopped school bus, striking and killing a girl getting off the bus. He kept driving.
He didn't think he could help the girl, so went on, and hid his damaged car. He had no intention of killing anyone that day. They found the man. He is off to prison for 15 years. Is our system unfair to him? What about that little girl and her family? Were we fair to them? No answers required. Fairness and "justice" are not meant to be hand in glove. Just ice administers the law. Fairness is differently perceived between violator and victim. Few if any prison inmates believe any punishment given them is fair. Victims, or families of victims, rarely think the punishment is sufficient. But all yield to the judge.

Of course it should be expected that an unbeliever would be offended at the punishment he was warned about. So what has that to do with us? It's between God and the offender. Somewhat like most people avoid breaking laws, believers in Christ stay safe from eternal punishment, and enjoy the benefits of being a good citizen of Heaven.

 

[Chopper]

Also, the 2nd Death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) cannot be understood as talking about eternal torment because it is tied to the 1st Death. The numbering here suggests that they are related to one another. For Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that we should fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell. The question then remains, why don't people believe Jesus?

Hold your breath as long as you can without watching the time and in the end see how long it was.
After you are done doing that, compare how long it seemed as to how long it actually was.
There's your "eternity" in that how long it will take for the flames to consume to ashes.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Also, the 2nd Death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) cannot be understood as talking about eternal torment because it is tied to the 1st Death. The numbering here suggests that they are related to one another. For Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that we should fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell. The question then remains, why don't people believe Jesus?

The first death is common to all generations from Adam on except the last standing at Jesus' second coming.

The second death is common only to unbelievers not found in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Many will not believe Jesus because of the same reason Eve then Adam fell in sin. They chose death, not life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, that is not an answer for those who are wicked. We are not talking about whether or not they were given an out or not. We are talking about whether or not the punishment is loving, fair, and just.

In other words, is it loving, fair, and just to throw somebody in a wood chipper for lying and or for speeding? Does it really matter if the country made sacrifices for it to be a crime free and loving environment? Should not the punishment itself be taken under consideration?

Also, please vote in the Poll.

then it is a faulty question.

And yes it does matter. God loved them, he offered them an out. so you can not say God is not a God of love.
God answered that by sending his son (hell was not made for mankind, so again your question is faulty, you can not compair throwing someone into a chipper to hell.)

Since hell was not made for mankind, and the ones who go their go there as children of their father (satan) it does not matter what the punishment is, it is deserved.

 

[Jason0047]

When do we determine when the word forever or eternal doesn't actually mean eternal? I've heard the adventist argument before and this portion was repeated verbatim in the many many SDA sermons I have watched:

"Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 KJV which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically."

There is a disconnect with this line of thinking. Every time the bible mentions eternal life or living forever there is no dispute with anyone that it means it literally. But when those words are used for the Lake of Fire/Hell, well no! Surely it is metaphorical.

Clearly, there are times when it is used metaphorically. How do we know? In the case above we have clear and obvious evidence that Edom isn't still burning. Do we have any evidence like that for Hell?

First, I am not SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) and I disagree with them strongly on other issues. Catholics believe in the Trinity but it does not mean they do not have other false doctrines. So just because some group might have correct doctrine on one thing does not mean they have other false doctrines that would paint them as false.

Second, there are several problems with the ECT interpretation on Revelation 14:10.

#1. The English word "ever" is translated from the Greek word "aion" which can be defined as "age." We know this to be true because Matthew 24:3 translates the Greek word "aion" into "world." For the dsiciples ask about the end of the "world" (i.e. age). It wouldn't make any sense for them to ask about the end of everlasting.

#2. The Lamb and his holy angels will present during this supposed unending eternal torture. Jesus is said to have a physical body in Revelation. This is a problem if Jesus desires to be with His people in the Eternal New Earth. He will be too busy watching the wicked burn for all eternity with his holy angels.

#3. They will have no rest day or night is in reference to the fact that those who take the Mark will not be able to sleep while they are alive. This makes sense because they are plagued by horrible soars, and other judgments by God.

#4. Both Isaiah and Revelation use symbolic language. Especially Revelation. The smoke of their torment is a metaphorical phrase. For if you were to read it literally it would not make any sense. Torment is a human emotion that is experienced. How can the emotion of torment manifest into smoke? Even if you were to suggest it is talking about crying or screaming, how can these things turn into smoke? The smoke of their torment is metaphorical. Not literal.

 

[Jason0047]

The first death is common to all generations from Adam on except the last standing at Jesus' second coming.

The second death is common only to unbelievers not found in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Many will not believe Jesus because of the same reason Eve then Adam fell in sin. They chose death, not life.

That still does not answer the question why ECT proponents change the difference between the two deaths. They are nothing alike. You can't call one the first death and one the second death if they are nothing alike. The first death is the death of the body. The second death is everlasting torture? Sorry, that does not compute.

 

[Jason0047]

then it is a faulty question.

And yes it does matter. God loved them, he offered them an out. so you can not say God is not a God of love.
God answered that by sending his son (hell was not made for mankind, so again your question is faulty, you can not compair throwing someone into a chipper to hell.)

Since hell was not made for mankind, and the ones who go their go there as children of their father (satan) it does not matter what the punishment is, it is deserved.

You are still not really answering the question, though. You are still avoiding it. I used a real world example because Jesus used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. ECT cannot be illustrated using a real world example. In fact, most of all false doctrines can be exposed because you can't make a real world example out of them.

 

[dcontroversal]

Eternal separation from the presence of God in the lake of fire which will result in eternal torment in the mists of darkness for ever where all who reject Christ will burn for the eternal ages and the smoke of their TORMENT will ascend for ever and ever before the throne of God......

The bible is clear.....either receive it or reject it........!

 

[Jason0047]

The first death is common to all generations from Adam on except the last standing at Jesus' second coming.

The second death is common only to unbelievers not found in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Many will not believe Jesus because of the same reason Eve then Adam fell in sin. They chose death, not life.

No. Believers will actually physically live again in new resurrected bodies. They have physical life and spiritual life. They have everlasting life (both spiritually and physically) that is found only in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12). Unbelievers die which is a contrast to the physical. They will die in the second death. They have no life physically or spiritually. God always destroyed his enemies in the past. He never kept any of them alive to torture them for long periods of time.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Hold your breath as long as you can without watching the time and in the end see how long it was.
After you are done doing that, compare how long it seemed as to how long it actually was.
There's your "eternity" in that how long it will take for the flames to consume to ashes.

The great hope of an atheist must be finishing as a heap of ashes. But, even ashes remain. Matter isn't destroyed. I would not want to amount to no more than a handful of a mountain of coal ash. Neither would God. The ash will remain. The ash is that part that could be burned up. Spirit can't burn up. It can be preserved, wicked or righteous, and put in another body, one that resists consumption of fire. God has done such things before evedn with mortal bodies, and will do it again.
Daniel 3:27 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP] And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

 

[Jason0047]

Will you hold God to your understanding of the depth of His love?

I don't have to. I know the Scriptures say God is love. Realizing this truth, you can't say God is loving and yet also can torture people beyond what the crime fits. It's not justice. It's not fair; And God is always fair because God is good. God is righteous and He is not unrighteous. God is more Holy and righteous then you think. You don't give Him enough credit in being loving and good.

Recently an 85 year old man passed a stopped school bus, striking and killing a girl getting off the bus. He kept driving.
He didn't think he could help the girl, so went on, and hid his damaged car. He had no intention of killing anyone that day. They found the man. He is off to prison for 15 years. Is our system unfair to him? What about that little girl and her family? Were we fair to them? No answers required. Fairness and "justice" are not meant to be hand in glove. Just ice administers the law. Fairness is differently perceived between violator and victim. Few if any prison inmates believe any punishment given them is fair. Victims, or families of victims, rarely think the punishment is sufficient. But all yield to the judge.

This is not a real world example that proves ECT. You are explaining a situation about how our government is not fair in it's judgments. This does not apply to the fairness of God in His Judgments. If God was the Judge, and the man was not truly intending to harm the girl and it was an accident, then God would not carry out the same sentence as the world would do.

If what you say is even 1% even remotely true, then you should have no trouble explaining the fair justice and love of God using a real world example in torturing people waaaaay beyond what the crimes call for.

Of course it should be expected that an unbeliever would be offended at the punishment he was warned about. So what has that to do with us? It's between God and the offender. Somewhat like most people avoid breaking laws, believers in Christ stay safe from eternal punishment, and enjoy the benefits of being a good citizen of Heaven.

This is an avoidance of the issue. You are not talking about right and true justice or judgment. Hiding your head in the sand is not going to make the problem go away, my friend.

 

[Jason0047]

The great hope of an atheist must be finishing as a heap of ashes. But, even ashes remain. Matter isn't destroyed. I would not want to amount to no more than a handful of a mountain of coal ash. Neither would God. The ash will remain. The ash is that part that could be burned up. Spirit can't burn up. It can be preserved, wicked or righteous, and put in another body, one that resists consumption of fire. God has done such things before evedn with mortal bodies, and will do it again.
Daniel 3:27 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP] And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

I am not sure they will feel that way when they are in Torments. The rich man thought it was a pretty horrible place. But it was a place of torment and not torture, though. The rich man did not ask for buckets of water. He only asked for a tip of water to cool his tongue. The rich man ws not screaming in flames. Again, another one of people fantasies or imaginations working overtime. Oh, and Daniel 3:27 does not support ECT. There is nothing about how they will burn forever in that passage.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are still not really answering the question, though. You are still avoiding it. I used a real world example because Jesus used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. ECT cannot be illustrated using a real world example. In fact, most of all false doctrines can be exposed because you can't make a real world example out of them.

No,

It is a faulty question.

Hell was not made for man.

so you can not ask if punishment in hell is love or anything, because man was not intended to go their in the first place.

and as I already proved, God [roved his love by making an out for EVERYONE (by his death) and thus no one who is cast to hell with satan has ANYONE to blame but himself.

it does not matter if we think it is fair or not. Who are we to question God?

 

[JDecree]

I don't have to. I know the Scriptures say God is love. Realizing this truth, you can't say God is loving and yet also can torture people beyond what the crime fits. It's not justice. It's not fair; And God is always fair because God is good. God is righteous and He is not unrighteous. God is more Holy and righteous then you think. You don't give Him enough credit in being loving and good.

Putting God on trial based on our finite fallen emotionally driven sense of justice is not a good idea. Imagine for a second your idea of Hell was wrong. What have you just called the LORD?

Unjust
Unfair
Unrighteous
Unholy

 

[Jason0047]

Putting God on trial based on our finite fallen emotionally driven sense of justice is not a good idea. Imagine for a second your idea of Hell was wrong. What have you just called the LORD?

Unjust
Unfair
Unrighteous
Unholy

It's more like, "Do you know God's love and goodness enough to tell the difference of what He would do and won't do in any given situation?" Jesus asked the Father to forgiven those who crucifying Him. That is the God of love that I know.

So you believe God can be loving and yet torture people beyond what the crime calls for?

If I am wrong, then you would have no problem explaining the spiritual truth behind God torturing the wicked beyond what the crimes call for. In other words, I know God is love and know God is good. If we see dictator today punish and torture someone waaaaaay beyond what the evils they did demand, we would think that a dictator was unfair and bad. How much more good, fair, and just is God than say a dictator who hurts people beyond what bad they have done?

 

[dcontroversal]

No,

It is a faulty question.

Hell was not made for man.

so you can not ask if punishment in hell is love or anything, because man was not intended to go their in the first place.

and as I already proved, God [roved his love by making an out for EVERYONE (by his death) and thus no one who is cast to hell with satan has ANYONE to blame but himself.

it does not matter if we think it is fair or not. Who are we to question God?

Not to mention that numbers 2, 3 and 4 on his list totally miss the mark...post 26....Jesus as God has no problem seeing EVERYTHING right now...why would he have a problem doing it in the future

 

[notuptome]

Interesting...Christians are resurrected with a body like unto Christ's resurrected body. Unbelievers are resurrected unto eternal condemnation they receive a body fitted for destruction. They will have their old wretched body and will burn in the fire and not be consumed.

Man has no grounds upon which to judge God as to fairness or justness of Gods decisions. God is the Creator not the creation. God has the authority to do as He pleases.

All men have the opportunity to receive of the goodness of God. If they choose the pleasures of sin for a season they rightly will suffer the eternal condemnation that goes with it. God said that they will choose to continue in sin even though they know the penalty of their sin.

Seems the height of foolishness to endeavor to judge God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[dcontroversal]

It's more like.... do you know God's love and goodness enough to tell the difference of what He would do and won't do.

So you believe God can be loving and yet torture people beyond what the crime calls for?

If I am wrong, then you would have no problem explaining the spiritual truth behind God torturing the wicked beyond what the crimes call for. In other words, I know God is love and know God is good. If we see dictator today punish and torture someone waaaaaay beyond what the evils they did demand, we would think that dictator was unfair and bad. How much more good, fair, and just is God than say a dictator who hurts people beyond what they have done?

God is not a dictator and to compare him to such is foolish, debases God and brings him down to the level of a depraved man....dude where do you come up with this stuff......

God said...TO WHOM SHALL YE LIKEN ME......NO ONE!

 

[JDecree]

So you believe God can be loving and yet torture people beyond what the crime calls for?

I don't believe God tortures people beyond what the crime calls for. That is the difference. You are imposing your justice on God and saying He needs to match up to it. Could it be we have such a low view of the severity of sin? Could that maybe be the case?