THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Psalm 119:142-144, "Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, because Your Law is the truth! Trouble and anguish have overtaken us, but Your Laws are our delights. The righteousness of Your testimonies is everlasting, giving us understanding, so we may live,"
Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them."

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
How can you tell others about Gods standards when you don't keep any yourself or don't seem to know what biblical standard you have? Do you just make the standards up as you go along?

Obviously you still have not read post 1104 in which I answered your question.
And what I said in this post about the Holy Spirit being our helper is biblical truth, as He was sent here to help us get stronger in the faith.

Now I answered your question awhile back on this, and have given you the post number twice. Now can you please answer my question that I have asked you the past two days.


Do you know that Paul did not write all of his epistles ?
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Im just trying to find one of you guys who keep saying they are under the law ...who keeps it? Seems all you guys do is break it? The sinners do that ! What have you guys got that they don't?
did you look ....did you trace back to see if anyone said they are under the law....you have labelled all who oppose your doctrine as being under the law....now you are asking for those who are saying they are under the law... take your first swipe at Paul...
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
SO if I stole 1 time I can never tell anyone they should not steal?

Man... if that were true not a single person in the earth could say sin is bad, I bet satan would LOVE that...

What if stealing something had a terrible effect on me and those around me, and I wanted to share my story so others would not fall into the same pit?

9 Minutes Ago #1117
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104615-great-debate-law-grace-56.html#post1821958

Psalm 119:142-144, "Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, because Your Law is the truth! Trouble and anguish have overtaken us, but Your Laws are our delights. The righteousness of Your testimonies is everlasting, giving us understanding, so we may live,"

Isayah 30:9-13, "That this rebellious people, lying children, are children who will not hear; (listen to), the Law of Yahweh; Who say to the seers; Do not see! Who say to the prophets; Do not prophesy right things to us, speak smooth things to us, prophesy deceits; Get out of the way, turn away from the path, cause the Holy One of Israyl to cease from our presence! Therefore, this is what the Holy One of Israyl says: Because you despise this word (the Law) , and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon. Therefore, this iniquity will be to you like a breach; a weakened wall ready to fall a bulge of a high wall which breaks suddenly, in an instant."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Matt 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Who's doctrine was that in Matt 5:19?

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."
Theren is a difference between saying let us by Gods grace do the good we know...and teaching a biblical standard that has the power of life and death...if you condemn someone by putting them under law..you have separated them from Gods love for them...you taking the most cherished thing in the life...to be right with God to be at peace with God to know that God it for them and loves them... and you don't keep the law...even your watered down version you don't keep...So love does not judge others by a standard it does not keep... your breaking the law of moses and the Law of Christ...can you not see that?
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
I myself am not justified through keeping them, because it's the Holy Spirit who helps me to do so.. by faith, that He is real, and that He is God, He forgave me giving me grace.. I still stumble, I'm not perfect... but I no longer live to sin, I live to serve Him, I don't live in hate, I live in love, I no longer live in pride, I live by humbleness and humility ...etc

That is a very good post and exactly what we all have been saying.
We are not justified by the law, the Holy Spirit guides us to be stronger in the faith so that we keep His moral laws out of love for Him. And He molds us to be better at it, as we follow His guidance.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
Obviously you still have not read post 1104 in which I answered your question.
And what I said in this post about the Holy Spirit being our helper is biblical truth, as He was sent here to help us get stronger in the faith.

Now I answered your question awhile back on this, and have given you the post number twice. Now can you please answer my question that I have asked you the past two days.


Do you know that Paul did not write all of his epistles ?
Just read it and it sounds like you have a lust problem? You know that Jesus says if you even look upon a woman to lust you have broken the law of adultery...right? So how many times do you sin in a day? 5 ...6 10?
 
Sep 30, 2014
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Thanks for liking this, Brainfreeze. Your brain is definitely not frozen and you have the mind of Jesus!
Your welcome, and thank you for the compliment the glory is His. I call myself that because I was aw struck by God, everything I thought about life was wrong, pride, competitiveness, one upping everyone around me, trying to " stunt " on people, my thoughts were frozen in His presence.. Now the neurons flow in there...lol
 
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Mitspa

Guest
I myself am not justified through keeping them, because it's the Holy Spirit who helps me to do so.. by faith, that He is real, and that He is God, He forgave me giving me grace.. I still stumble, I'm not perfect... but I no longer live to sin, I live to serve Him, I don't live in hate, I live in love, I no longer live in pride, I live by humbleness and humility ...etc
Yes that's what the bible calls the law of the Spirit...good standard...So if God judged you by the exact standard of the law of Moses..to keep the all the law all the time? could you be justified by the law of Moses
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Just read it and it sounds like you have a lust problem? You know that Jesus says if you even look upon a woman to lust you have broken the law of adultery...right? So how many times do you sin in a day? 5 ...6 10?

Which is why I stated that the Holy Spirit is still working on me with that one, and I have been getting better at that with the Holy Spirit's guidance that I put my focus on other things. So by filling my mind with other things to where I do not leave time nor place for those thoughts to happen. We are a work in progress, He molds us to into perfection.

Still no answer to my question though:

Do you know that Paul did not write all of his epistles ?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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Theren is a difference between saying let us by Gods grace do the good we know...and teaching a biblical standard that has the power of life and death...if you condemn someone by putting them under law..you have separated them from Gods love for them...you taking the most cherished thing in the life...to be right with God to be at peace with God to know that God it for them and loves them... and you don't keep the law...even your watered down version you don't keep...So love does not judge others by a standard it does not keep... your breaking the law of moses and the Law of Christ...can you not see that?
1 Yahchanan 2:3-5, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law(entole), is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him."

Quote me my error or please apologize.

You shall not go about tale-bearing or slandering among your people.


SO im judgemental, but you said, " your breaking the law of moses and the Law of Christ"

No Scriptural refutation, no replies to my Scriptures I post, just ignore my posts and talk over them... accusations and misrepresentations....

You were shown your error in translation Romans 10:4 by me more than 2 times and by another, you never even acknowledged the posts, but continued to use it in a false manner.


you said, "if you condemn someone by putting them under law..you have separated them from Gods love for them"

Love huh?

Am I evil for posting Scripture....

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws (entole). For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
 
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Mitspa

Guest
That is a very good post and exactly what we all have been saying.
We are not justified by the law, the Holy Spirit guides us to be stronger in the faith so that we keep His moral laws out of love for Him. And He molds us to be better at it, as we follow His guidance.
well that's what you have been saying...that's not how I have understood you nor how many others have...see when we are all honest and admit we can only be justified by Faith...we can have a place of fellowship and uphold the righteous standards that God has given us...but when brother begins to teach a biblical standard they cannot keep to others and cause others to be condemned..That breaks the unity of the believers.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
1 Yahchanan 2:3-5, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law(entole), is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him."

Quote me my error or please apologize.

You shall not go about tale-bearing or slandering among your people.


SO im judgemental, but you said, " your breaking the law of moses and the Law of Christ"

No Scriptural refutation, no replies to my Scriptures I post, just ignore my posts and talk over them... accusations and misrepresentations....

You were shown your error in translation Romans 10:4 by me more than 2 times and by another, you never even acknowledged the posts, but continued to use it in a false manner.


you said, "if you condemn someone by putting them under law..you have separated them from Gods love for them"

Love huh?

Am I evil for posting Scripture....

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws (entole). For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
Yea His commandment to love other as yourself...not to condemn them by standards you admit you don't keep...that's not love...so you don't keep any of Gods Commandments at any time really.. so post those scriptures and keep pretending ...Im sure God wont mind..
 
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Mitspa

Guest
Which is why I stated that the Holy Spirit is still working on me with that one, and I have been getting better at that with the Holy Spirit's guidance that I put my focus on other things. So by filling my mind with other things to where I do not leave time nor place for those thoughts to happen. We are a work in progress, He molds us to into perfection.

Still no answer to my question though:

Do you know that Paul did not write all of his epistles ?
Brother I would love to encourage you and build you up and that you would have confidence that as you battle your sin Gods grace is with you...Please give mercy to others as you have received mercy...Good night brother
 
Sep 30, 2014
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Yes that's what the bible calls the law of the Spirit...good standard...So if God judged you by the exact standard of the law of Moses..to keep the all the law all the time? could you be justified by the law of Moses
No, that's why they sacrificed animals back then.. They couldn't keep it.. No one is perfect but the Messiah.. I don't blame the ones that try to please God by trying to keep them as long as they don't push the 613 laws on everybody else.. I just don't see it wicked to eat pork.. Killing a man or premeditated thinking of doing evil " knowing or not knowing " there's a God is wicked to me, hurting children or women is wicked to me .. I think there's different levels of wickedness along with different places of hell, but keeping the love of God and the love of our neighbor hangs all the others.. Just as scripture states
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Quote me my error or please apologize.

You shall not go about tale-bearing or slandering among your people.
Yea His commandment to love other as yourself...not to condemn them by standards you admit you don't keep...that's not love...so you don't keep any of Gods Commandments at any time really.. so post those scriptures and keep pretending ...Im sure God wont mind..
You are vile. You use vague Scriptural principles to call obedience evil...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."

1 Yahchanan 2:3-5, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law(entole), is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him."
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Brother I would love to encourage you and build you up and that you would have confidence that as you battle your sin Gods grace is with you...Please give mercy to others as you have received mercy...Good night brother

So still no answer to my question, a simple yes or no would be alright.
Nobody is going to judge you on that, for none of us are suppose to judge another. Nor are we to belittle, down grade, make fun of, or even laugh at another if they do not know.

Do you know that Paul did not write all of his epistles ?
 
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ChristIsGod

Guest
You know, mitspa - I have been a member of a Reformed "TULIP" church for over 7 yrs and pastor knows that I don't go for Calvin but as popular as that church is and their outstanding reputation, he won't let me give up my membership and knew all along that I didn't agree with Calvin -- but we all loved each other so very much that I could not put it into words on here if I tried. I'm still a member and we will always stay in touch, though I moved.

It's not this topic that upset me - it is the lying, the twisting of words, the name calling, the nasty replies, the not really taking the time to look at the verses the other Brothers are posting and before you came - it was just as bad if not worse. We never got "Scripture" as replies - just insults and sly accusations - and now you've become almost just like that. I put the others on Ignore but I had more hopes that you could remain a gentlemen like my pastor - but I suppose your idea of 'love' is quite different than his.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
No, that's why they sacrificed animals back then.. They couldn't keep it.. No one is perfect but the Messiah.. I don't blame the ones that try to please God by trying to keep them as long as they don't push the 613 laws on everybody else.. I just don't see it wicked to eat pork.. Killing a man or premeditated thinking of doing evil " knowing or not knowing " there's a God is wicked to me, hurting children or women is wicked to me .. I think there's different levels of wickedness along with different places of hell, but keeping the love of God and the love of our neighbor hangs all the others.. Just as scripture states
I would like to give you more reputation for this post, but it will not let me yet.
For what you say here is the matter of what we all say, God's moral laws are written in our heart. The 613 mosaic laws where just that, laws for the Jews under the mosaic covenant. We are not under the mosaic covenant, we are under the new covenant of our Lord in which the 613 mosaic laws do not apply.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
John (Yahchanan) 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

John 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The Words (Instructions) that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

Proverbs 10:17, "He who keeps instruction is in the way of life, but he who refuses reproof goes astray."
 
Mar 28, 2014
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well that's what you have been saying...that's not how I have understood you nor how many others have...see when we are all honest and admit we can only be justified by Faith...we can have a place of fellowship and uphold the righteous standards that God has given us...but when brother begins to teach a biblical standard they cannot keep to others and cause others to be condemned..That breaks the unity of the believers.
How far will it go when I say.... faith without works is dead?
James 2:20-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?