Just Curious About Baptism.

[passinthru]

Baptism is good but being baptized or not is not what secures eternal life. Can someone be saved when in combat just before he is taken out? Did the guy on the cross next to jesus get baptized? The pilot announces: ." we are going down folks " ? Lost in the air due to no baptism in water? Please don't ask if the plane was over the ocean :.)

 

[notuptome]

did they not have to wait until the day of pentecost?....for the HS who brought the NT into effect....

Nope the risen Jesus breathed on them the Holy Spirit in the upper room before Pentecost. Pentecost was a filling not a baptism of the Holy Spirit a filling for power to minister or in Peters case to preach the risen Christ to the Jews present.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Water baptism for believers is best demonstrated in Acts 8:34-39. Clear and without controversy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[oldhermit]

Baptism is good but being baptized or not is not what secures eternal life. Can someone be saved when in combat just before he is taken out? Did the guy on the cross next to jesus get baptized? The pilot announces: ." we are going down folks " ? Lost in the air due to no baptism in water? Please don't ask if the plane was over the ocean :.)

Why do you feel that any attempt at a ligical argument will in any way overturn the language of the text?

 

[passinthru]

Why do you feel that any attempt at a ligical argument will in any way overturn the language of the text?

Just asking ...any response? I am sure that many have the same types of questions regarding baptism. You say?

 

[oldhermit]

Just asking ...any response? I am sure that many have the same types of questions regarding baptism. You say?

Well, the problem with the creation of scenarios like the one you just proposed is that they never ad force to any argument. The inherent problem with using scenarios as a tool for challenging things in scripture is that scenarios are always rooted in one's own desires, whether consciously or unconsciously, and to render the biblical text contingent upon the content of the scenario. Scenarios are always presented as a human condition and are always the product of human intelligence. Here is what scenarios are designed to do.
1. Scenarios are an attempt to rationalize human will and behavior that is contrary to a foundational truth.
2. Scenarios will generally ignore the language of the biblical text.
3. Scenarios are used to justify a given human agenda. i.e. The end justifies the means.
4. Scenarios are an attempt to overturn the authority of the Word of God in favor of human will.
5. Scenarios exalt human intelligence above the intelligence of God.
6. Scenarios assume that the language of the biblical text cannot stand against the logical argument.
7. Scenarios assume that scripture will break down in the extreme case.
In short, the use of scenarios never add to our understand of the Word of God nor will they overturn the will of God.

 

[passinthru]

Well, the problem with the creation of scenarios like the one you just proposed is that they never ad force to any argument. The inherent problem with using scenarios as a tool for challenging things in scripture is that scenarios are always rooted in one's own desires, whether consciously or unconsciously, and to render the biblical text contingent upon the content of the scenario. Scenarios are always presented as a human condition and are always the product of human intelligence. Here is what scenarios are designed to do.
1. Scenarios are an attempt to rationalize human will and behavior that is contrary to a foundational truth.
2. Scenarios will generally ignore the language of the biblical text.
3. Scenarios are used to justify a given human agenda. i.e. The end justifies the means.
4. Scenarios are an attempt to overturn the authority of the Word of God in favor of human will.
5. Scenarios exalt human intelligence above the intelligence of God.
6. Scenarios assume that the language of the biblical text cannot stand against the logical argument.
7. Scenarios assume that scripture will break down in the extreme case.
In short, the use of scenarios never add to our understand of the Word of God nor will they overturn the will of God.

Scenarios depict life situations. I posted what I did as these
'scenarios' as you refer to them are questions that many people ask. I am not here to argue I am only asking how would people respond to these quEstions.

 

[oldhermit]

Scenarios depict life situations. I posted what I did as these
'scenarios' as you refer to them are questions that many people ask. I am not here to argue I am only asking how would people respond to these quEstions.

Well since this is a scenario let me address the scenario to a particular text and I will ask this same question to you.

Jesus said,"He that believes and is baptized will be saved" so from the force of this statement can someone be saved when in combat just before he is taken out? The pilot announces: ." we are going down folks " ? Lost in the air due to no baptism in water?

 

[dcontroversal]

Just asking ...any response? I am sure that many have the same types of questions regarding baptism. You say?

I believe the text....

Believe and thou shalt be saved is pretty clear......

If you confess with your mouth and believe that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved is pretty clear

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe is pretty clear

The LIKE FIGURE whereunto BAPTISM doth not now save us.....is pretty clear

He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life is pretty clear...

 

[Jacob_Fitzgerald]

Many people bicker over this topic. This is not my intention so whatever comes out in the thread after my question, is on you and you alone. I am just learning myself, so be kind. You got to learn too..


I've grown up being taught baptism was a public profession of faith, yes. Sorta like it being an outward showing of what happened on the inside when we invite Jesus into our lives. So on so forth. But I've noticed something weird. My one question is where at in the bible do we come to this conclusion that it is what Christianity teaches baptism to be? Where is baptism said to be just a "symbol"?

Maybe I'm stupid not seeing it??

I don't know what baptism is or why, or the significance of it. In reading Mark 16:16 I simply knew I had to be baptized. I accept that I am but a small child and have not been given to understand baptism, so I go on my way happily trusting in the Lord to show me what to do even if I don't understand.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

-----------

From some of the questions you are asking lately it sounds like you are on a real hunt for the truth. Keep at it:

Jeremiah 29:13 (please read the whole chapter so as to understand the context)
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

In Christ

 

[Chopper]

Why don't you ask JESUS as he is the one who said it and he knows way more than you or I........maybe your view of the law is flawed a bit chopper!

His quote...For ALL the prophets and ALL the LAW prophesied until JOHN....

John was the transitional hinge pin between the time period of the LAW and PROPHETS and what would come to be known as the Church AGE...Jesus started his church when he CALLED Out the disciples and The CHURCH is SPOKEN of in the present tense no less than two times during the ministry of JESUS as PASTOR of the 1st N.T. Church!

Thanks for your response as this is exactly the kind clarification that I thought would come about...

First of all, I will not call on the name of another god, but only my Father which is in shamayim Yahuwah, or His Son Yahushua.

Secondly, the law of Yah is perfect, not my view or your view of it will make that change... ever.
As Yahushua my Mashiah, has said Himself;

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Next up, you better double-check on who the prophets are, and here's a hint: Rev. 19:10 and 22:9 tells you they are here to the very end because of who they are. Remember the other discussion about being caught up to the Messiah in the clouds in the last day?

The scripture you took out of context was the prophets of that time, not to the very end.

 

[1still_waters]

I posted this in another thread a while back.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...tized-get-into-heaven-debate.html#post1809357
Hope it helps.

Summary..

The past people of God passed through water when being delivered, Noah, Israel out of Egypt, Israel through Jordan. Water baptism is a tangible gift that allows us to follow that pattern, it links us to the past people of God who experienced God's deliverance by passing through water. Only Jesus saves. Water baptism does not save.

Explained

Christians that don't get baptized are missing out on an actual tangible aspect of their faith that associates them with the people of God throughout the Bible. The people of God throughout the Bible passed through water in the course of their deliverance. Baptism gives us a tangible participation in this pattern. It can give us something tangible to look back at and draw encouragement from.

The dirt man was formed from was once covered by water.
Genesis 1:9

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.

Noah passed through water. (I cover that at the end of this post to show a point.)

Genesis 7

23 Thus He blotted out [a]every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the [b]sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.24 The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days.

The Israelites passed through water during their deliverance.

Exodus 14
15 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to Me? Tell the sons of Israel to go forward.16 As for you, lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel shall [i]go through the midst of the sea on dry land.17 As for Me, behold, I will [j]harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.

The Israelites passed through water when taking possession of the promised land.
Joshua 3

17 And the priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord stood firm on dry ground in the middle of the Jordan while all Israel crossed on dry ground, until all the nation had finished crossing the Jordan.

Christians get the opportunity to be baptized and pass through water too.


No the act of baptism doesn't save you, but it's nice that Jesus gave us something tangible that we can look back at and draw encouragement from.

You can look back at your baptism and view it as something linking you to being buried with Christ and risen from the dead to new life. Like the other people of God we get to pass through water. It links us to the past pattern God used with his people.

Romans 6

2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Gal3

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is [a]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 2

12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

1 Peter 3

19 in [o]which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [p]water.21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [q]for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Notice how Noah's passing through water is associated with our passing through water?
It's an amazing tangible gift God has given us to link us to all the people in the past who were saved by passing though water.

Again, baptism does not save.
Jesus alone saves.

 

[dcontroversal]

Thanks for your response as this is exactly the kind clarification that I thought would come about...

First of all, I will not call on the name of another god, but only my Father which is in shamayim Yahuwah, or His Son Yahushua.

Secondly, the law of Yah is perfect, not my view or your view of it will make that change... ever.
As Yahushua my Mashiah, has said Himself;


Next up, you better double-check on who the prophets are, and here's a hint: Rev. 19:10 and 22:9 tells you they are here to the very end because of who they are. Remember the other discussion about being caught up to the Messiah in the clouds in the last day?

The scripture you took out of context was the prophets of that time, not to the very end.

I suggest a study of the word ALL and the words of JESUS.......as ALL applies unto the prophets that would proclaim under the LAW........and the point was about when the N.T. concept of grace and salvation under the particular banner of Grace and when it would kick in........

 

[Chopper]

Ok... I guess that is all Him... and who He is.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When He returns, and sets up His Kingdom that was given to Him by the Father, what do you think, that kingdom will have no laws? Every kingdom has laws for it's subjects that they must obey, but those of us in His kingdom love the laws of His.

 

[passinthru]

Some interesting info here:
Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation? - John MacArthur - Jesus Christ and Salvation

 

[passinthru]

Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."
The washing of rebirth can only be that washing of the blood of Christ that cleanses us. It is not the symbol that saves but the reality. The reality is the blood of Christ.
Gal. 3:27, "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
This is speaking of the believer's union with Christ. It is an identification with, a joining to, a proclamation of loyalty to, etc. In 1 Cor. 10:2 the Israelites were baptized into Moses. That means they were closely identified with him and his purpose. The same thing is meant here.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25, 26; Ezk.44:7, 9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).
One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

The ENGLISH word "for" can sometimes mean "because" but not in the Greek for the Greek has separate distinct words for "because' and 'for'

I already refuted "oldhermit's" similar claim. You might want to rethink that position.

Note how Thayer did not define eis as "because" but instead defines it as looking forward, towards.

It also defined it as "for" and all the connotations that translation carries in English.

Again, how do you work out those impossibilities of Mt 26:28 and 1 Tim 1:16 by making eis mean "because"?

You're trying to make it appear I'm saying εἰς always means "for" and I never said that. Because the word is translated into the English word "for," all the possible meanings of the word "for" are therefore carried within the Greek εἰς as well. There is no escaping that fact.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

You are misrepresenting the use of the word altogether. You cannot translate this as "because of" the preaching of Jonah, nor does any English translation I know of dare to translate it in such a fashion. This would be grossly irresponsible.

And yet the passage clearly states that the Ninevites repented "as the result of" Jonah's preaching, unless you'd care to deny that. Same thing, OH, same thing.

The meaning if the word

εἰς pushes the direction of the repentance forward - they repented toward the preaching of Jonah.

Now you're just making things up to fit a definition I posted. You can't repent "towards" anything, because the word means "to turn away from"!

You have to construct the translation according to the definition of the words used. You cannot simply assign any definition to the language you want.

So it was not because of Jonah's preaching the Ninevites repented? Did I get that right?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

first ..we are saved by grace through faith...

Thank you. Baptism is an act -- a work. Thereby, you have negated your entire argument, rendering moot anything said thereafter. Case closed. Thanks for playing.

 

[oldhermit]

And yet the passage clearly states that the Ninevites repented "as the result of" Jonah's preaching, unless you'd care to deny that. Same thing, OH, same thing.

No, I do not deny that the Ninevites repented as a result of Jonah's preaching. What I am trying to show you is that this is simply not what what the language of the text says.

Now you're just making things up to fit a definition I posted. You can't repent "towards" anything, because the word means "to turn away from"!

Obviously one can. That is what the language of the text says.

So it was not because of Jonah's preaching the Ninevites repented? Did I get that right?

Again that is simply not what the language of the text says. If that is what Matthew meant he would have used a different grammatical construction. If you want this to say 'because of' the text would have to be written ὅτι τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰωνᾶ but that is not what he said.
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