The law and the prophets were until JOHN who was dead and gone when this event took place so your point one is MOOT.....!
Just Curious About Baptism.
- Thread starter JesusMyOnly
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The law and the prophets were until JOHN who was dead and gone when this event took place so your point one is MOOT.....!
Yes I've known about the thief on the cross as well. But then again I think that Jesus told the thief they'd be in paradise together while He was still alive. So the thief was saved under the old law... (?) Next question.. does the age of grace start right after Jesus died on the cross or after His arising from the grave? Cause I don't know.
No offence, but all I did was quote the source above...and to boot...I could care less what any GREEK scholar has to say in the immediate context as it is a proven fact that MODERN LEARNING is tainted....for example most will say we came from a monkey or some worm...The source I cited is sufficient.....and not to mention that the bible does not teach baptismal regeneration.....
When I see the blood I will pass over you
When I see the blood, water and works I will pass over you
Which one of the above two is a direct quote from the bible! A clue.....the BOLDED ONE!
I think it is quite good but there are others I believe are equally good. It really does not matter that much about the different Lexicons because they are all written by reputable scholars who are among the best in their field and you will find very few instances where there is any significant disagreement among them regarding the use of words.
A
Anonimous
Guest
First point... simply don't know. Second, I doubt if the Romans would have taken the time to take him down so he could get baptized.
The law and the prophets were until JOHN who was dead and gone when this event took place!
Heb 9:16,17 the NT could not start until after Christ died. So the thief, as you correctly pointed out, cannot, is not an example of NT salvation.
A
Anonimous
Guest
I'll look up that word in String's and see what it says. That being said I do believe that baptism is important as Jesus said it was. He was baptized so why shouldn't we? I also think it should be done either up asking Jesus in to our life or ASAP.
Okay, I need to think and study on this.
A
Anonimous
Guest
DC, this is not a conspiracy nor is it a soteriological matter. This is a simple matter of linguistics. The word means what it means regardless on one's soteriology. You are allowing your soteriology to drive you interpretation of a word rather than allowing the language of the text to form your soteriology
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
The Gospel is the Death, Burial, Resurrection. Those that deny water baptism as being the "burial", are denying the Gospel.
Jesus said that we must be born again to enter the kingdom. Let's turn to John chapter three...
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Born again is of water and spirit. And, without this we cannot enter into the kingdom. Peter knew this when he answered the question...
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter said to ...
1. Repent = death
2. Be water baptized = burial
3. Receive Holy Spirit = resurrection
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
God bless!
V
Viligant_Warrior
Guest
If we are saved by faith, then we are saved by faith when we believe and not when we get baptized, otherwise, we are not saved by faith. Furthermore, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then anyone who receives Christ on his deathbed in a hospital and who also believes Jesus is God in the flesh, who died and rose from the dead for his sins, etc., would go to hell if he doesn't get baptized before he died.
This would mean that we were not justified by faith, because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized, regardless of whether we accept there is an "age of responsibility" at which our innocence in ignorance is lost. Remember, when someone says that baptism is necessary, there can be no exceptions -- otherwise it isn't necessary. And it isn't.
This would mean that we were not justified by faith, because if we were, then the person would be saved. Also, if baptism is necessary for salvation, then all babies who die go to hell since they weren't baptized, regardless of whether we accept there is an "age of responsibility" at which our innocence in ignorance is lost. Remember, when someone says that baptism is necessary, there can be no exceptions -- otherwise it isn't necessary. And it isn't.
A
AtonedFor
Guest
Since you are curious about baptism, here are the 4 baptisms in the NT.
Baptism into the church (salvation)
This does not refer to an intellectual belief (or conversion of one’s thinking),
but this refers to being born again (from above) with the Holy Spirit entering the person.
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
… and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact
the body is not one member but many.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-14).
The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer.
Verses stating that the Holy Spirit comes inside the believer are:
John 14:16-23; Romans 8:11; 1 Cor. 3:16; Gal. 4:6; 1 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 3:24, 4:12-16.
Baptism in water
Full-immersion water baptism is meant to be symbolic,
and it is the outward expression of inward faith.
“Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,
that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Romans 6:3-4).
”… buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through
faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12).
Jesus died to self, went down under the earth, was resurrected with a new incorruptible body.
We are to die to self, go down under the water, come up a new man ready to live a new life.
Scripture indicates that water baptism is strongly advised:
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Jesus, Matthew 28:19).
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe
will be condemned.”(Mark 16:16).
“Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).
“Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,
calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16).
But, is water baptism really necessary for salvation?
“For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel …” (1 Corinthians 1:17).
Baptism with the Holy Spirit
John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit
(Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33) … whereas …
the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the church at the time of our salvation.
The baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after, or at the same time as, being born again
… and there are 7 verses stating that the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer:
“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (the Gentiles), as upon us (the Jews) at the beginning.
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ ” (Acts 11:15-16).
The others are: Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:5-6.
Which baptism is this, salvation or water? “(Peter and John) prayed for them (Samarians)
that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 8:15-16).
Jesus made it very clear that He would be sending “the promise” of the Holy Spirit
upon believers (Luke 24:49), specifically the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4-8).
This occurred on the Day of Pentecost, and is called “The Coming of the Holy Spirit”.
The Holy Spirit sat upon each person, and then …
“they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4).
In Acts 10:44-48, Peter commanded water baptism after the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Baptism with fire
“He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16).
This refers to the extreme suffering of a martyr for the gospel’s sake.
Jesus was the first in Christianity to go through this.
“But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am
till it is accomplished!” (Luke 12:50).
Jesus asks His 12 disciples if they are able and willing to be martyrs also.
“Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink,
and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
… You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism
that I am baptized with” (Matthew 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39).
Baptism into the church (salvation)
This does not refer to an intellectual belief (or conversion of one’s thinking),
but this refers to being born again (from above) with the Holy Spirit entering the person.
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
… and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact
the body is not one member but many.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-14).
The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer.
Verses stating that the Holy Spirit comes inside the believer are:
John 14:16-23; Romans 8:11; 1 Cor. 3:16; Gal. 4:6; 1 Timothy 1:14; 1 John 3:24, 4:12-16.
Baptism in water
Full-immersion water baptism is meant to be symbolic,
and it is the outward expression of inward faith.
“Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,
that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Romans 6:3-4).
”… buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through
faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12).
Jesus died to self, went down under the earth, was resurrected with a new incorruptible body.
We are to die to self, go down under the water, come up a new man ready to live a new life.
Scripture indicates that water baptism is strongly advised:
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Jesus, Matthew 28:19).
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe
will be condemned.”(Mark 16:16).
“Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38).
“Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,
calling on the name of the Lord.” (Acts 22:16).
But, is water baptism really necessary for salvation?
“For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel …” (1 Corinthians 1:17).
Baptism with the Holy Spirit
John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit
(Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33) … whereas …
the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the church at the time of our salvation.
The baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after, or at the same time as, being born again
… and there are 7 verses stating that the Holy Spirit comes UPON the believer:
“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (the Gentiles), as upon us (the Jews) at the beginning.
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ ” (Acts 11:15-16).
The others are: Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:5-6.
Which baptism is this, salvation or water? “(Peter and John) prayed for them (Samarians)
that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” (Acts 8:15-16).
Jesus made it very clear that He would be sending “the promise” of the Holy Spirit
upon believers (Luke 24:49), specifically the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4-8).
This occurred on the Day of Pentecost, and is called “The Coming of the Holy Spirit”.
The Holy Spirit sat upon each person, and then …
“they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4).
In Acts 10:44-48, Peter commanded water baptism after the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Baptism with fire
“He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16).
This refers to the extreme suffering of a martyr for the gospel’s sake.
Jesus was the first in Christianity to go through this.
“But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am
till it is accomplished!” (Luke 12:50).
Jesus asks His 12 disciples if they are able and willing to be martyrs also.
“Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink,
and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
… You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism
that I am baptized with” (Matthew 20:22-23, Mark 10:38-39).
Last edited by a moderator:
LOL. Haven't heard that one before.
The fact is that we learn from the gospels that John's baptism was very impactive among the Jewish community. "And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins." Now, if the thief was a Jew, and it is considered that he was, and if he was from Judea, then the possibility that he was baptized was very good indeed.
The thief is not an example of NT salvation for Acts 2:38 came into effect some time AFTER the thief died so he and others living BEFORE Acts 2:38 are not accountable to it as we today who live AFTER Acts 2:38 are accountable to it.
1st and foremost I have not ever denied that Baptism shows the death BURIAL and resurrection of Jesus....
2nd The water of John 3 is directed at a fleshly birth
3rd Baptism is the public testimony of receiving and believing in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead...
Luke tells us Jesus was a son of God BY BIRTH based upon the HOLY SPIRIT not water.......
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<---NO WATER, WORKS, CHURCH AFFILIATION etc....
This view rejects scripture....
1. THE LAW AND PROPHETS WERE UNTIL JOHN
Was Peter, James, John, etc. the children of God and saved? YES...your view is flawed and denies the truth of eternal salvation of both the O.T. saints and ALL who had received JESUS that he states are saved before HIS death, burial and resurrection.....!
Changing eis to mean "because of" presents some biblical impossibilities:
Mt 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many "because of" the remission of sins."
1 Tim 1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him "because of" life everlasting."
Mt 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many "because of" the remission of sins."
1 Tim 1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him "because of" life everlasting."
A
Anonimous
Guest
V
Viligant_Warrior
Guest
Only if you insist on that being the only meaning. Look up the word "for" in English and see how many definitions there are -- out of which is "because of." The Greek εἰς has even more meanings than does the English word "for": In the NASB, it is translated:
about (1), against (18), among (10), become* (5), before (2), before* (1), benefit (1), bestowed (1), beyond (1), beyond* (2), bring about (1), bring* (1), continually* (1), eliminated* (2), end (2), even (1), ever* (2), forever* (1), forward* (3), leading (2), leads (1), mine* (1), never* (1), next* (1), onto (2), over (1), perpetually* (1), reference (2), regard (3), relation (1), respect (2), result (3), resulted (2), resulting (10), sake (1), so (34), throughout (3), toward (23), until (4), view (3), why* (4).
The Thayer's definition read: "εἰς, a preposition governing the accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, toward, for, among."
Last edited: