What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving?

[Jason0047]

In addition, Paul essentially says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. If the Second Death was perpetual or ongoing, then the last enemy would not technically be destroyed. Also, a last enemy suggests that God has other enemies. This last enemy is destroyed. So it is logical to conclude that God's other enemies would be destroyed, as well.

 

[Jason0047]

Furthermore, 1 John 5:12 says life is only in the Son and 1 Timothy 6 says Christ alone posesses immortality. In other words, Jesus would need to be living in the wicked in order to give them life.

 

[Angela53510]

I'm not Christian, but I will give my two cents on this, as per many years of religious studies, a fair knowledge of Judaism's predecessors and antecessors and a current Master's Degree research proposal with psychological and sociological arguments on morality, religion and indoctrination of several types.
________________________________________________

Historically and contemporarily, Jews from mainstream sects do not tend to officially doctrinate specific views on the afterlife in the ways that Christian and Muslim scholars do. Various views, contingent on the specific scholarly school of Judaism, posit various notions about the life after death, facilitated by their varying perspectives on God's instrinsic nature, but few if any claim to know for definite what the afterlife holds for man.

Such a broad range of speculations exist that for the most part the Jewish community of scholars is at large wiling to be liberally interdenominational in this respect; they allow for various interpretations regarding death and the hereafter, in fact most scholars are in this manner liberal with many aspects of Judaistic doctrine. In this light, Judaism might be considered unique among the Abrahamic religions; denominational conflict is unusual by virtue of the Judaistic tendency to comprehend and even condone different renderings.

That said, one almost unanimous belief perserveres throughout the majority of renderings; that the human essence resides in 'shoel' after death - shoel, which, depending on the scholar is anything from a place of rest to a purgatorial experience. Note that few if any Jewish scholars assert the existence of an eternal realm of torture for humanity. Many do, however, merit the notion that an ungodly life means simple annihilation upon physical death.

Christianity and Islam are therefore the major advocates of hellfire doctrine. It is strange then, that these religions would spawn with such vehement ideas on the afterlife, from a religion which roundaboutly admits ''we simply don't know what happens when we die''.

Morally speaking, a notion such as eternal torture at the hands of an all-powerful creator throws up some extremely troubling dilemmas, particularly when it is taken into account that the Christian perspective of God is that he is a God of love who created man with foresight that man would fall short of his apparent expectations and require forgiveness, and so people ask 'what commonality have love and forgiveness with torture?' This dualism within God's character is perhaps the single most cognitive-dissonance-inducing aspect of Christianity, but before we attempt to address it, perhaps we should look historically at how the concept of eternal damnation to fire found its way into Christian doctrine.

From the biblical scripts in Greek and Hebrew, there exist several Greek and Hebrew words which most mainstream translators collectively render 'hell'. These words are 'shoel' (Hebrew for 'resting place of the dead'), 'hades' (Greek for 'underworld', which can be considered equivalent to the Hebrew 'shoel' as aforementioned) and 'gehenna', which is perhaps the most troublesome word. 'Gehenna', in Jewish history, is a small valley a few miles outside the walls of Jarusalem, where many graves currently lie and which can be visited at any time. It is a short trip from the City.

The first two words, 'shoel' and 'hades', historically - up until translations rendered more than a thousand years after Jesus death which rendered these words as 'hell' became commonly used - had no connotation with fire, with torture, or with eternal punishment. In Judaism, in both of the old Hebrew and the more modern Greek styles, these words simply meant 'the resting place of the dead', where all humans go after their passing to rest.

The third word 'Gehenna', however, has always had connotation with torture, right back into the older books of the Old Testament, but that connotation was not always attributed to actions carried out by God, contrary to popular opinion. 'Gehenna', as spoken about in the books of Joshua, Isaiah and Kings, was a valley outside Jarusalem, which several hundred years before Jesus' birth was home to a particularly nasty Jewish tribe who ''burned their children day and night'' and offered the charred remains as sacrifices to God. They were so vile a species of human beings in fact, that God denounced their practices and stated plainly to King Josiah that He had told them to commit none of the atrocities they commited towards their children, then God instructed the King to destroy them for what they had done.

How then, does this word 'Gehenna', a place full of people whom God opposed vehemently for burning their children, come to be translated and rendered as 'hell', the place many believe God will burn many of his children for eternity? Doesn't it seem odd to you -- poetically tragic, unrealistically ironic even -- that God would oppose the Gehennites burning of their children, only to burn most of his own children in a place called 'Gehenna', which we translate 'hell'?

Doesn't it also seem odd that evidence would suggest that the first mention of a burning hell to which God sends sinners is in Greek fiction more than a thousand years after Jesus death, and was later adopted by the church as a doctrine?

The duality implied in God's character when we assert the existence of an eternal torture in hell which somehow confirms his status as 'a God of love' is evident from the earliest infant conceptions we all may have of 'hell'. 'Love', and eternal burning are indeed contradictory terms, and this can be conveyed not only as a literary faux-pas on part of translators and as a historical contradiction in God's character, but also as a moral conundrum evidenced by study of biblical definitions and the character of Jesus christ himself.

Paul defines love, in his letters to Corinth, as 'patient, kind, non-boasting, non-proud, something that does not dishonour others, something unselfish, soft tempered, not delighting in evil, truthful, not begrudging, protective, trusting, hopeful and persevering'.

In Jesus Christ, the moral teacher whose instructions provide the basis of all Christian morality, we see these traits. Jesus showed great patience in answering many difficult questions. Jesus showed great kindness is healing those who were suffering. Jesus showed great reserve when thrown awry questions and requests to show his magnificence by the Pharisees. Jesus showed great humility in washing his disciples' feet. Jesus showed a desire not to dishonor by not disclosing Judas' identity as the traitor, even when he knew who it was. Jesus showed great unselfishness in being captured willingly so that his disciples could escape unharmed. Jesus showed soft temperament in many instances, even when he had cause to be angry. Jesus showed no delight in evil, not even in evils being used to repay evils, and many times reiterated the cause - to do good to those who do evil against you. Jesus told the truth. Jesus did not begrudge those around him. Jesus protected and sustained those with him. Jesus trusted his disciples. Jesus had hope for man and the goodness his disciples would do after he was gone, and Jesus persevered until his death.

It is quite obvious then, that the characteristics of love are displayed in the actions of Jesus' daily life, and it is only logical that if God's character is displayed perfectly in Jesus, that God abides by the same loving tendencies as listed here. John says that 'God is a God of light, no darkness exists in him whatsoever' and goes on to note that wickedness is darkness. Wickedness is against God's nature. Jesus, of course, is light just as God is, and showed no wickedness, but rather he 'loved his enemies'. He abided by his own instructions, for if he did not, he would be a hypocrite. Thus, it becomes God and Jesus to live by the standards they set; standards of forgiveness, kindness, and love. How, then, if Jesus did not torture nor physically harm a single person, did not commit an act of hate, sacrificed himself, forgave continually, and upheld the characteristics of the love he commands, can God torture his own children and still be considered a God of love in the definitions He gave us?

The simple answer is that he can't.

When Jesus speaks of 'gehenna' he uses the term as a warning. He talks about those who sin and do not change their ways living in an 'outer darkness', a great 'fire', burning the soul, where the wicked have no peace of mind in the day or in the night. But is Jesus really saying, despite all his instructions to love which he himself adhered to, that he will actually carry out the burning of most of humanity, day and night, for all eternity? It seems rather contradictory to think so, a very difficult dualism that is almost impossible to entirely accept or reconcile, if we are to assert that Jesus remains steadfast in his moral character.

What if, rather than proclaiming that either he or God will burn those who do not repent, Jesus is actually suggesting that those who have no regard for their sins will end up as morally blind as those who burned their children in Gehenna hundreds of years before his birth? Gehenna and its atrocities were no secret to the Jewish people of Jesus' time, and in fact the mere mention of the place would illicit a shamefulness among the people; a revulsion at the idea that God would be appeased by the offering of charred remains of infants and toddlers. And so, perhaps Jesus used the term as a deterrent, a way of saying ''look outside the city walls to Gehenna, remember it, look and see where recklessness leads'', for of course, it is recklessness and heedlessness that led the citizens of Gehenna to the most grave immorality in the first place -- burning their own children.

I'm not a Christian, but this dilemma's answer seems quite obvious to me; the people who hold God to the highest standard of love, like the standard above -- the standard that can be reconciled with itself -- tend to hold themselves to the highest standard of love, yet those who are quick to talk about God's judgement, wrath, and hatred, are usually the first to display judgement, wrath and hatred. Nowhere does Jesus command people to be judgemental, wrathful or hateful, and nowhere does Jesus display judgemental attitudes, wrath, or hatred.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that this man could disregard his teaching to others, which are upheld by his own character, and send billions upon billions of his children to burn for eternity, particularly when God despised human beings for burning their children? It seems to me that a Christian person who believes that God (the highest moral authority) can be both benevolent and malevolent, yet totally loving, are quite satisfied to display both love and hatred and still consider themselves the most moral beings on this planet.

What is the saying -- ''The morals of your God are the limit to your ethics''? ..
Perhaps a better rendition is ''You are made in your God's image'' ....

Sources????

As far God sending his "children" to hell, the Bible is clear that God's children are those who receive him.

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God," John 1:12

That is what you get for studying secondary sources and not the Bible. Therefore, God never condemns his children to hell, instead, unbelievers send themselves to hell for believing a lie, rather than believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:9-10

So human, I pray God will unharden your heart, and you will go beyond facts and knowledge learned in books, and turn to the living God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

No matter which scenerio of the afterlife turns out to be true for unbelievers (as stated in the poll on page 1!) I pray you will come to a true heart relationship with God in Christ Jesus.

Knowing Christ and walking with him is more important than all the discussions of the afterlife in the world! Because no matter what you believe or disbelieve, in the end, belief in Christ is all that matters on judgment day!

 

[justin777]

1 John 5:12 says life can only be found in the Son and that there is no life outside the Son. 1 Timothy 6 says Jesus alone posesses immortality; Not other humans.

In order for someone to be eternally damned, they need to have eternal life by abiding in the Son. Hebrews 7:16 says Jesus is made after the power of an endless life. Meaning, only Jesus has an endless life. Only those who abide in Jesus can have the power of an endless life because such a power is exclusive to Jesus because He is God.

No eternal damnation is not eternal life bro. Hell is filled with death not life. Jesus was talking about heaven your too hard on the scriptures you need the Holy Spirit to interpret.

Like I said before He gives that eternal life to those who accept it He is the only one who can give it...

Hell has to be real because God has to send the people who utterly reject Him to a place where His communion is not.
God = Love and light who speaks life
No Gods communion = Torment

 

[DiscipleDave]

Have i said differently? i have not said that God is not capable of being in Hades. i merely said that God will not be in Hell. Are you suggesting that God will visit those in Hell, lost for all eternity?

Revelation 21 says the former things will pass away. There will be no more sorrow, pain, and death. Jesus essentially says, He will make all things new. Paul essentially says that last enemy to be destroyed will be death.

The last thing to be destroyed is death. The Spirit that is in you is immortal, it can't die or be killed. Death is only relevant to the flesh, Man, Humans. life on Earth. When satan in the end is cast into the Lake of fire, it is said that Death and Hell are cast into that same fire. The Lake of Fire can also be viewed as a Hell. Because of satan sin came to be, and because of sin, death came to be. When satan is cast into the lake of fire to be there for ever and ever, death is cast in there too. There will be no more deaths at all.( exception life without spirits)

So if there will be no more death, and the last enemy to be destroyed is death then it is logical to conclude that there are previous enemies of God that would have been destroyed, too. Naturally, the devil, his demonic minions, and all of wicked mankind are enemies of God ---- So they will be destroyed, as well. So there is no eternity for the lost because they are enemies of God who will be destroyed just as death will be destroyed.

you say logical to conclude that there are previous enemies of God that would have been destroyed, too. How is that logical. What Scriptures teach they are destroyed? You say they will be destroyed because they are Naturally enemies of God, where does it teach they are destroyed? cease to exist? no more? What verse teaches that? You say you logically conclude that, so explain how you have logically come up with that belief, because Scriptures don't teach they are destroyed, so how do you conclude they are?

If you put Death in a place where nothing can die, Death is destroyed.
If you put a thief in a room that has nothing in it, stealing is destroyed
When satan is cast into the Lake of Fire and Death and Hell are cast in with Him, Death is destroyed, because he is around those who can't die. When Death, satan, demons, and all the spirits that followed the ways of satan are cast into the Lake of Fire, if Death is there with them, why is nobody dieing? Because nobody can die, they are immortal, and can't be killed. God can't die, nor can God be killed. God is immortal. Angels are immortal and can't be killed or die. Lucifer was an angel, demons were angels as well, they can't die or be killed, they like God will abideth for ever. Just because they are cast into the Lake of Fire, does not mean they cease to exist, they are immortal. Death is destroyed, not because Death ceases to exist, but because Death has nobody He can cause death too.

You say "So there is no eternity for the lost because they are enemies of God who will be destroyed just as death will be destroyed."

verse please?

You make the assumption that I believe God will torment the wicked for eternity. I don't. Such a thing is not just or good and you know it deep down.

i appoligize if i made that assumption, that was not my intent. So you believe that satan does not deserve everlasing punishment? Caused a war in Heaven, evil, wicked, unjust, unholy, ungodly, hater of God?
I am telling you the Truth, you can't kill an Angel of God. They are part God. As it is written "ye are Gods" because of the spirit that is in us, which is immortal, is the reason we are called the children of God. Even satan and the demons are children of God, they are Gods, because they can't be killed, they are Gods because they are immortal, they are immortal because they came out from God, even as the spirit that is in you has came out from God. The spirit that is in you is immortal and i tell you the Truth that spirit will forever be with God in His Kingdom or forever be in the same place where satan is.

^i^

 

[Human]

Sources????

As far God sending his "children" to hell, the Bible is clear that God's children are those who receive him.

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God," John 1:12

That is what you get for studying secondary sources and not the Bible. Therefore, God never condemns his children to hell, instead, unbelievers send themselves to hell for believing a lie, rather than believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:9-10

So human, I pray God will unharden your heart, and you will go beyond facts and knowledge learned in books, and turn to the living God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

No matter which scenerio of the afterlife turns out to be true for unbelievers (as stated in the poll on page 1!) I pray you will come to a true heart relationship with God in Christ Jesus.

Knowing Christ and walking with him is more important than all the discussions of the afterlife in the world! Because no matter what you believe or disbelieve, in the end, belief in Christ is all that matters on judgment day!

You ask for sources (which can be found in the bible books mentioned, which describe 'gehenna' and what it is), then assert knowledge in books is insufficient to form a basis for belief! lol.

Have you ever heard of the fallacy of the false dilemma? Bifurcation? False dichotomy? False choice? Hell is a perfect example. No person on this Earth, according to the mainstream Christian doctrines, can 'choose' any other end than either 'hell' or 'heaven', when in fact religiously, biblically, morally, psychologically, scientifically, there are inummerable alternative perspectives and choices for both renditions of scripture and for life-paths that humans can decide upon.

Your paradigm concludes, from extensive variables, unprovable foundational principles, and masses of information to be analyzed and studied with numerous probable and valid conclusions to be made thereof, that hell is real, hell is eternal torture, and the only life-choice humans make is to believe or burn.

There is, intellectually, academically, phsychologically, no more merit to that conclusion than the many others that are made off untestable metaphysical principles. However, if you would please read the books of Joshua, Isiah and Kings, you will see what 'gehenna' was (a physical place God condemned for its inhabitants burned their children) and perhaps you will then question why translators translate that word as 'hell' -- a place of undending torment for humans, built by God -- when God condemned the people who lived in the place before Jesus for doing the very thing which you say God will do to most of humanity. Such a moral dilemma is a genuine moral dilemma which should be addressed before any conclusion upon what 'hell' inherently is. It seems you've formed your conclusion before you've addessed the dilemmas about 'gehenna' and 'hell' that must be solved in order to deduce a logical conclusion -- a cognitive process that is fairly typical in religious indoctrinations.

 

[DiscipleDave]

In the End when Hell is created.

So Hell is created in the End? What verse or set of passages actually says that?

i stand corrected, well sit corrected, would like to withdraw that statment. In the End when the Lake of fire is created, Which i personally view as Hell, not this hell, but when the Lake of Fire is created at the very End.

satan and his demons and all of those who chose to follow the ways of satan, will be cast into a place that will be devoid of God.

Well, you said before that Hell is not what we think. Could please elaborate on that with some Scripture?

Sure, but you will need to tell me first what you think Hell is, what you think it is, so i can show you Scriptures. Many think of Hell as being a place of fire and brimstone, which is not the case at all, the Hell that is called the Lake of Fire is fire and brimstone, which is created to hold satan, demons, and of their followers. forever. Many think Hell is only temporary, that satan, demons, and their followers are somehow destroyed, killed, cease to ever exist again. They who believe that, do not know the makeup of Angels, Spirits, Sons and Daughters of GOD. The offspring of God who we are can't die. The flesh dies, the spirit does not die, nor can it die. Since the offspring of God can't die or be killed, they will be forever separated from the presence of God, And as such, since God is Love, they will not be able to experience Love, Since God is Peace, they will have no peace. Since God is Joy, they will have no Joy. Pray to God, search the Scriptures, seek the Truth.

NOT saying God can't go there, saying He will not go there. All those in Hell will spend eternity in Hell, without the presence of God, PERIOD.

You seemed pretty convinced that the prescence of God will not be present when any being will be tormented with fire and brimstone.
Yet Scripture says, "...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" (Revelation 14:10).

This is when they are cast into the Lake of Fire, but once there, they will not be present. The Great White Throne Judgement is when all those who chose to follow the ways of the devil, and the devil, and the demons will be JUDGED and when they are judged that is when they will be cast into the fire and brimstone and will be immediately tormented while the Holy Angels, and Jesus is present. But not only they will be present to see this, but the Saints as well will be present, especially the Saints that were given the white robes to wear, the ones who were killed for the sake of Jesus Christ.

The Hell i am referring to, is not what exists today. The Hell i am referring to is the Hell that satan, demons, and all those who follow the ways of satan, will be cast into for all eternity. AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment. At the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth.

You mean "Gehenna" that is translated as Hell in the KJV; Which is another name for the the Lake of Fire. Correct?

i mean what i said above.

^i^

 

[Jason0047]

No eternal damnation is not eternal life bro. Hell is filled with death not life.

Then why are they living if there is only death there?

Jesus was talking about heaven your too hard on the scriptures you need the Holy Spirit to interpret.

I do believe I have the Spirit and that the Lord is guiding me on this topic within the Scriptures. So where does that leave us then? I will tell you. It leaves us in having to then prove our case with Scripture. I have already provided plenty of verses so far. I think it would be good if we discuss those verses.

Like I said before He gives that eternal life to those who accept it He is the only one who can give it...

Eternal life is not a super power or like a magical wish granted to you by a genie. Eternal life can only be found in the Son. So one can only have eternal life by abiding in the Son. For He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life.

Hell has to be real because God has to send the people who utterly reject Him to a place where His communion is not.
God = Love and light who speaks life
No Gods communion = Torment

Is this just like based off your own thoughts or are you like actually getting that from Scripture?

 

[ELECT]

No eternal damnation is not eternal life bro. Hell is filled with death not life. Jesus was talking about heaven your too hard on the scriptures you need the Holy Spirit to interpret.

Like I said before He gives that eternal life to those who accept it He is the only one who can give it...

Hell has to be real because God has to send the people who utterly reject Him to a place where His communion is not.
God = Love and light who speaks life
No Gods communion = Torment

Was man created immortal ?

When will the wicked eat out of the tree of life ? Why

 

[Bowman]

Hey Jason....do you think that the residents of hell are teased with non-fermented grape juice...?

 

[DiscipleDave]

And because YOU do not see it, does it make it untrue? Have you showed any Scriptures which disproves anything that i have said above, is not Scriptural? Then it is only your opinion that it is not true based on what? NOT Scriptures, but based on your own thinking of what the Truth is.

Look, I have never heard anyone preach this particular viewpoint on Hell before, so it would probably be a good idea to back up this view in Scripture. You can't just make wild assertions about Hell and then offer no Scriptural evidence to back up those assertions. Well, you can, but if you want to be taken seriously, you would present Scripture. Just saying it is so does not make it true. We are on a Bible Discussion forum and not in a Fiction Writing forum. Prove your case with the Bible.

You are a witness against your own self. You say "Look, I have never heard anyone preach this particular viewpoint on Hell before" So you testify that this is the first time you have heard of this. Yet you put the burden of proof on me. you have been disagreeing with me from the start, and have not showed one Scriptures to prove me wrong, have you? Why are you not like the Bereans? Which when they heard something that have never heard before went to the Scriptures to see if they were true or not. You have testified this is the first time you have heard this about Hell, yet have not gone to the Scriptures to see if what i am saying is true or not, but have altogether passed the buck by saying "that i should back up what i am saying with Scriptures"
Friend i have nothing to prove to you, i know what the Truth is, and from who i have received it. if this is the first time you have heard this about Hell, it would seem to me, that you would be searching the Scriptures to see if it is True or not. You are the one who has never heard of this before, i know where i have heard and know the Truth, it is not my place to prove to you what He has already told me. You see i know what the Truth is, if you too want to the know what the Truth is concerning this matter then search it out in Scriptures, go into prayer, fast, meditate. i had to do those things much. How easy it is to pass the burden of proof to another.

Friend what is it to me if you do not believe Him who has told me things? i have nothing to prove to you, i know what the Truth is.

This thought has came about because people are unwilling to imagine a loving God that would punish anyone for all eternity. Does not make the thought True though. This thought is easier to believe than what the actual Truth is. Have you not taken the verse which mentions an everlasting punishment, and CHANGED it to mean something other than what it says to fit your own belief. i will tell you the Truth, ever lasting punishment, is exactly that. All the interpreting from man to change that, won't change the Truth. and there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth, for ever.

Well, if it was true, then surely we would be able to see a real world example of it. For Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples. In other words, if a dictator today tortured members of your unbelieving family for the rest of their lives for small petty crimes they might have done in his country, would you be thinking... "well... maybe they deserved it?" No. I doubt you would think that way. In other words, I want you to picture the most loving unbelieving person you can think of. Now, imagine them being tormented in flame for the rest of their life. Think of all the people who do charity work and have helped others and are not generally bad people that don't believe in Jesus. What about them? Can you picture them being tormented forever and ever? Yes, rejecting God (Christ) is bad and is one of the biggest sins there is. But what if it was a young man who just reached the age of accountability and they committed just one sin (that they would be held acountable for) and then they died? What then? Should they suffer for all eternity? How is that just? Can you explain it to me? You know... the justice and goodness behind that?

Tell me something, if you being a leader of a state, say to a man, if you rape someone you will be put in prison for 10 years, if you rape a child you will be put into prison for life, if you kill somebody, the state will put you to death. Now lets say this man rapes a woman and her child and then kills them. When the State therefore executes their judgment on this man, are we to feel sorry for what has happened to this man? Was he not warned, did he not know the consequence of his actions? Anyone who get put into Hell, put their own self there. God will shed a tear for each and every one of them, But His hands are tied, do you know why they are tied, because God can't lie. If He says all fornicators will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, then i assure you anyone who is judged as being a fornicator, will NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Because God can't lie. And the one who is living in fornication, God will use every tool at His disposal, HE will have His servants warn that person to stop doing that, He will have messages come up to warn him that it is evil and wicked, the Holy Spirit of God will also try to convict him, to make him feel guilty of his sin, in order to have him desire to stop doing it. But he continues anyways, despite all those coming to warn him from God, despite the messages, despite the convictions of the Holy Spirit of God, that person continues to live in fornication because that person is selfish, ungodly, and it does not matter what he says with his mouth or what he believes, His actions PROVE what is in his heart. and the Kingdom of Heaven will not accept ANYONE who is selfish. The Kingdom of Heaven desires to have ONLY those who LOVE OTHERS, and they are very few. So if that man ends up in Hell, it is not because God wanted him to go there, God, within the boundaries of His own Word, because He can't lie, HAS to PUT HIM THERE. Because that man refused to heed or listen to all the warnings to stop what he was doing.
Have you not heard the statement, the Bible talks more about Hell then it does Heaven, Yet Again a WARNING. Those who make light of what Hell actually is like, will not fear God who is able to put them there. You see to a wicked person Hell wouldn't be bad at all if you merely cease to exist, cease to be, how is that bad, sign me up. But if it is for ever and ever, maybe, just maybe, people will get on the right path for fear of God putting them in that terrible place that lasts forever and ever. And i have told you already WHY it is forever, because a spirit can't die, or be killed, or cease to exist. So the spirit in you will go to live in Heaven for all eternity, or it will be separated from God for all eternity, there is not ceasing to be. Those who are separated from God, choose to be separated from Him. If they go into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, it won't be because God did not try to help them not to go there, they refused God, shunned His help, and discard the messages that are sent unto them, they are lost, not because God wants them lost, they are lost because they choose not to be found by God.

^i^

 

[Jason0047]

i stand corrected, well sit corrected, would like to withdraw that statment. In the End when the Lake of fire is created, Which i personally view as Hell, not this hell, but when the Lake of Fire is created at the very End.

Well, I believe Scripture implies the Lake of Fire exists today. Matthew 25:41 suggests that it is already prepared. Also, the beast and the false prophet will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna) before the Millennium starts, too.

Sure, but you will need to tell me first what you think Hell is, what you think it is, so i can show you Scriptures. Many think of Hell as being a place of fire and brimstone, which is not the case at all, the Hell that is called the Lake of Fire is fire and brimstone, which is created to hold satan, demons, and of their followers. forever. Many think Hell is only temporary, that satan, demons, and their followers are somehow destroyed, killed, cease to ever exist again. They who believe that, do not know the makeup of Angels, Spirits, Sons and Daughters of GOD.

The KJV uses the English word "Hell" describe both "Hades" and "Gehenna" (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Hades is an intermediate state or a really bad prison. It is not be a place of torture in flames, but it is a place of torment. Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus said fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Hell (i.e. Gehenna, the Lake of Fire). (Matthew 10:28).

The offspring of God who we are can't die.

Yes. True believers in Jesus Christ cannot die. Why? Because eternal life can only be found in abiding in the Son. See 1 John 5:12. For Jesus said, I come to give you life and that you may have it more abundantly. Jesus said, He is the way, the truth, and the life. 1 Timothy 6 says Jesus alone possesses immortality.

The flesh dies,

Yes, we can at least agree on this point.

the spirit does not die, nor can it die. Since the offspring of God can't die or be killed, they will be forever separated from the presence of God,

Such thinking is foreign to Scripture. Nowhere does it say man's soul and spirit are naturally eternal. None. On the contrary, the Scriptures associate the wicked with words such as: burn them up, stubble, be no more, perish, death, destroy, destruction, etc.

• Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
• Psalm 37:10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.."

• Psalm 1:6-"Be the way of the ungodly shall perish."
• John 3:16-"Whosoever believeth in him should not perish." (Greek: destroyed)
• Romans 6:23-"For the wages of sin is death."
• Hebrews 10:39-"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
• Revelation 20:14-"This is the second death."

• James 4:12-There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.
• Philippians 3:19-Whose end is destruction.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
• Psalm 92:7-"...it is that they (i.e. all evil doers) shall be destroyed forever…"
  
  

There is a gift we get from believing the gospel; it is called "everlasting life" (John 3:16). Paul calls this gift (immortality) an integral part of the gospel message, "Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10).If all souls are born immortal, then why are we encouraged to seek it?

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" (Romans 2:7)

​

Why would Jesus offer us an opportunity to "live forever," if we all live forever?

"If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever." (John 6:51)

​

The truth is, the abundant life Jesus (Yeshua) promises us is in eternity, it is immortal life, everlasting life.

"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (John 10:10)

​

Believers will live forever. How much more abundant can you get? In 1 Timothy 6:15-16, Paul says that God alone possesses immortality. And 1 Corinthians 15:53 teaches that the Redeemed will not become immortal until the time of their resurrection.


Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: Not all views expressed in this site are a reflection of all my views).

 

[Jason0047]

You are a witness against your own self. You say "Look, I have never heard anyone preach this particular viewpoint on Hell before" So you testify that this is the first time you have heard of this. Yet you put the burden of proof on me. you have been disagreeing with me from the start, and have not showed one Scriptures to prove me wrong, have you? Why are you not like the Bereans? Which when they heard something that have never heard before went to the Scriptures to see if they were true or not. You have testified this is the first time you have heard this about Hell, yet have not gone to the Scriptures to see if what i am saying is true or not, but have altogether passed the buck by saying "that i should back up what i am saying with Scriptures" Friend i have nothing to prove to you, i know what the Truth is, and from who i have received it. if this is the first time you have heard this about Hell, it would seem to me, that you would be searching the Scriptures to see if it is True or not. You are the one who has never heard of this before, i know where i have heard and know the Truth, it is not my place to prove to you what He has already told me. You see i know what the Truth is, if you too want to the know what the Truth is concerning this matter then search it out in Scriptures, go into prayer, fast, meditate. i had to do those things much. How easy it is to pass the burden of proof to another.

The point I am getting at is that if what you say is true, then other believers out there would believe it, too. There would be a label for it so I can research it with Scripture. I have already provided many many verses within this thread. I have also stated my Biblical position, which is "Conditional Immortality" (To be more specific, I believe in "Dualistic Conditionalism"). I have nothing to hide. In other words, I have already presented my case with Scripture. It is time you do the same.

As for fasting, praying, and meditating: Please do not take this the wrong way, my friend: But While it is good you fast and pray, boasting about it on a public forum is probably not the best way to go about it. The Scriptures say, do your good works in secret so that your Father in Heaven will reward you in secret.

Friend what is it to me if you do not believe Him who has told me things?

Out of context loose quote. You are not Jesus.

i have nothing to prove to you, i know what the Truth is.

So you were never wrong ever about a teaching in Scripture or a verse? I will admit I have been wrong before.

Tell me something, if you being a leader of a state, say to a man, if you rape someone you will be put in prison for 10 years, if you rape a child you will be put into prison for life, if you kill somebody, the state will put you to death. Now lets say this man rapes a woman and her child and then kills them. When the State therefore executes their judgment on this man, are we to feel sorry for what has happened to this man? Was he not warned, did he not know the consequence of his actions? Anyone who get put into Hell, put their own self there. God will shed a tear for each and every one of them, But His hands are tied, do you know why they are tied, because God can't lie. If He says all fornicators will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, then i assure you anyone who is judged as being a fornicator, will NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Because God can't lie. And the one who is living in fornication, God will use every tool at His disposal, HE will have His servants warn that person to stop doing that, He will have messages come up to warn him that it is evil and wicked, the Holy Spirit of God will also try to convict him, to make him feel guilty of his sin, in order to have him desire to stop doing it. But he continues anyways, despite all those coming to warn him from God, despite the messages, despite the convictions of the Holy Spirit of God, that person continues to live in fornication because that person is selfish, ungodly, and it does not matter what he says with his mouth or what he believes, His actions PROVE what is in his heart. and the Kingdom of Heaven will not accept ANYONE who is selfish. The Kingdom of Heaven desires to have ONLY those who LOVE OTHERS, and they are very few. So if that man ends up in Hell, it is not because God wanted him to go there, God, within the boundaries of His own Word, because He can't lie, HAS to PUT HIM THERE. Because that man refused to heed or listen to all the warnings to stop what he was doing.
Have you not heard the statement, the Bible talks more about Hell then it does Heaven, Yet Again a WARNING. Those who make light of what Hell actually is like, will not fear God who is able to put them there. You see to a wicked person Hell wouldn't be bad at all if you merely cease to exist, cease to be, how is that bad, sign me up. But if it is for ever and ever, maybe, just maybe, people will get on the right path for fear of God putting them in that terrible place that lasts forever and ever. And i have told you already WHY it is forever, because a spirit can't die, or be killed, or cease to exist. So the spirit in you will go to live in Heaven for all eternity, or it will be separated from God for all eternity, there is not ceasing to be. Those who are separated from God, choose to be separated from Him. If they go into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, it won't be because God did not try to help them not to go there, they refused God, shunned His help, and discard the messages that are sent unto them, they are lost, not because God wants them lost, they are lost because they choose not to be found by God.

There is nothing in what you had written here that would justify God in torturing a person who did not sin eternally to be punished for all time for a finite amount of crimes. Hey look, if you want to make God look bad by saying He will torture people forever, that is on you --- Not me. I will defend the goodness of God as He is clearly described to us within the Scriptures. Unless of course you can actually give me a straight answer as to how it is just and fair for God to torture people waaaaay beyond their crimes.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Says who? next are you going to tell me, that seas are not people as well? Or that the 7 heads of the Beast are not peoples as well, or the 7 horns are not people (Leaders/kings). And please explain something to me. you say "the wicked people themselves are tormented forever and ever or does it say the smoke of their torment?" Can you explain to me the last part of what you said, the smoke of their torment. What is THEIR TORMENT?

The point is that it is metaphorical language. The smoke is representation or a picture or symbol of something. Just as the "many waters" that the woman sits upon is a representation, or a picture, or a symbol of something.
As for the 7 heads and 7 horns, that is another topic of discussion. But yeah, I do disagree with your interpretation of that, though.

i appreciate you trying to give me the credit. But i must refuse that, it is not my interpretation, but what was told to me, therefore the credit belongs to Him who told that me.

Now i understand, you are learned! Don't agree with what a particular verse say, so you take it to Hebrew and/or Greek to somehow change what it plainly says to mean something different that what it plainly says. yeah i use to do the same thing, i studies the Hebrew and Greek extensively, what an idiot i was, nothing but dung and wasted time. The Holy Spirit of God revealed to me Truths in a matter of minutes, that a thousand hours of studying Hebrew and Greek could not accomplish, dung.

I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired perfect Word of God for our day. However, what you must realize is that the KJV is not written in Modern English but it was written in Old English. I mean, haven't you ever read a passage that was sometimes more clear and easy to understand in another translation vs. the KJV? If so, then why is that?

Please read the article KJV vs Other Versions. Oh and i forgot to ask you in the previous post to read The Meaning of Life which you might find interesting.
Also i would like to say at this time, i think you are not far from the Kingdom of God. i since you have a good spirit in you, and LOVE OTHERS, i get the feeling you are one of those people who would give the shirt off your back if someone needed it. i know it seems i am being hard, i am not pleasant of speech. i come across arrogant and self-righteous, But that is not my intent. When you KNOW The Truth, because God revealed it to you, how can you not come across arrogant? anyways back to our topic

You asked me " haven't you ever read a passage that was sometimes more clear and easy to understand in another translation vs. the KJV? "

i have never read another translation period. except Hebrew / Greek / Latin. i am not saying other versions are wrong. Any translation that can bring a person to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can't be a bad book. If you click on KJV vs Other Version, you can see all that have to say on that matter.

You ask at the end Why is that? The Word of God was made in such a way, to weed out people who did not Truly want to learn it. How many people have read it partly and said it is too confusing and then never pick it up again. The Word of God was made in such a way, that the more you read it, the more the spirit inside of you grows. The more it gets fed, the more it grows, the more you read the Word, the more it is fed. The more it grows the more it has the Strength to reveal something to you, for example you have read a verse many time, but then like lightning, the meaning of that verse opens up to you, and it is revealed to you. That is because the spirit only at that time was strong enough in you to reveal it to you. Those who read the Word of God every single day will have a stronger, healthier spirit then that person who only hears the Word when they go to Church.
There is nothing wrong with the KJV, those who don't understand it, it is because they did not read it enough to feed their spirit to reveal it to them. Other versions have came to be because people said the KJV is in need of becoming simpler, easier to understand. Woe is the author of confusion? satan is. Look at us now, we have hundreds of different versions now, all of which claim to be the Word of God. And all this confusion for what? Because 40 people said the KJV was too hard to understand. It was hard to understand, because they did not read it enough. Those who have read it many times, ask them if it is still confusing or not? But those who read it maybe once, if that, are the same ones who said we need a new version.

You say "The word "ever" in Revelation 20:10 is the Greek word "aion" which means "age."" So let me see if i have this right. The Word of God states they will cast into the lake of fire for ever, but you say it is not forever, it is only for an "age" based on what your studies of the Hebrew and Greek tell you, is that right? How have you not changed what the Word of God plainly teaches, to fit what you believe is the Truth?

So do you beleive the passage in Isaiah that says God directly creates evil?

God did create evil. In that He created Lucifer, and Lucifer was responsible for creating evil, than God created evil because He created Lucifer. He also uses evil for His purposes. He allowed satan in the Garden of Eden in the first place. What He could not prevent the devil from being there? What? He did not know he was there? God knew, and He allowed the devil in there to tempt them with the very thing they were commanded not to do. God did not want them to eat of the Tree of knowledge, but it was His plan to send His only Son to the Earth, even before He created the Earth, therefore they had to sin, in order for Him to send His Son. The devil was in there for a reason, and it served God's purpose, read the Meaning of Life for more detailed information.

In other words, to answer your question, No, I haven't changed the Word. Words change in meaning with the passage of time. The word "ever" during the 1600's could be understood as something that was not eternal but temporal, too. Don't believe me? Just do an Eytmology search on the word "ever" and check it out for yourself (i.e. Go to Google and type in the keywords: "Eytmology ever.").

Answer me this question. When the Bible was in the process of being interpreted into the English language, Did God know that the KING JAMES VERSION would be protected, preserved until the time of His Sons Return? Yes or No?
You can't answer can you. If you answer No, then i will say, so your saying that God did NOT know it would last until His Sons return? And if you answer Yes, then i will say, well if He did KNOW that, would He not make sure it was written in such a way that would apply even until Jesus Return? If God wanted it to be reinterpreted, He could have said any number of things in His Word. Such as saying "When people fly on wings over the ocean let this Word be rewritten" Or, "Let this Word be redone, when a man with African decent leads the Eagle" or any of a thousand different things He could have said, How many does He do? NONE, zilch, not-ta. He Knew the KJV would last for over 400 years, He made sure it was written in such a way that it would last until He Returned. So then those who desire to change it or reinterpret it because they deem the times have changed and it is in need of being reinterpreted, and some of the words no longer apply or mean what they did back then. Tell me. for over 400 years all those who were SAVED by reading and believing the KJV Bible, were they wrong? Are they still SAVED? If thousands were saved by the KJV, why would you desire to go to another version to learn the Truths of God. Why on Earth wouldn't you go with the version that has been proven, why wouldn't you go for the version that is not copy righted?

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

You say Rev 20:10 is only referring to the devil, beast, and false prophet, but not believers. This is True, but if you read on you will see in verses 13-15 you will also see, and confirms what i have said, that all those people who follow the ways of satan are cast into the same lake of fire that the devil, beast, and false prophet were cast into in verse 10 which according to the Word of God lasts forever. Also notice that verse 14 talks about Death and HELL being cast into the same lake of fire. And as i have said previously. i am not talking about the Hell that is today, i am talking about the eternal punishment that comes upon all those, AFTER the Great White Throne Judgement, who follow the ways of satan. And it is eternal, lasting forever. Now the question is, in light of what these Scriptures plainly teach, are you going to accept this Truth, or discard it as to not have to change what you have probably believed all your life?

Still doesn't change anything. As I said before, they are tormented day and night for the ages of ages. Matthew 24:3 uses the same Greek word "aion" for the same Greek word "aion" in Revelation 20:10. Mathew 24:3 translates "aion" as "world." Can you make sense of that passage by saying "ever"?

Am i to understand you, that because it does not make since to you, you have to find something that will make since to you?
The Bible says they will be in the lake of fire for ever, you say they will be in the lake of fire for an age.
Who am i to believe, the Word of God which teaches forever, or you which teaches not forever?
You believe it is an age because that is what you logically deduced from your own studies of the Hebrew and Greek, correct?
Who did God write the KJV Bible too? Did He not make the KJV Bible for all the English speaking people in the world? Yes He did. But now we have an ENGLISH Bible given to us by God Himself, but now we are expected not to believe that English Bible, but are required to take it back to the Hebrew and Greek in order to properly understand the English Bible given to the English speaking people of the world. is that right?
So if i am going to please God, should i merely as a child believe the Word of God that HE gave to the English speaking people, or am i to not believe what God gave to the English speaking people, because it does not line up with the Hebrew version that God gave to the Hebrews to believe?
Let us assume for one moment, that it is as you say, the word for ever means ages. Why would God do that to us, to cause us to believe it is forever. When He was there to make sure the KJV was accurate because He knew it would be called His Word until Jesus Returned, why did He allow that word for ever to be there and not merely say for an age? Did God not know this would cause a great deal of confusion? What if the KJV and what it says is the Truth, that it is for ever, how could satan corrupt that, and cause all kinds of confusion? what would be satans strategy to cause that? Oh, he could convince people that the English Bible that God gave them, needs to be interpreted with the original languages to better understand the Truths of God, and knowing all along if people actually did this, he can cause a great deal of confusion and false teachings.
Let us look at it even another way.
Bob says forever means an age.
Tina believes it to mean what it says, forever.
Now Bob and Tina stand before God on Judgment Day. Lets say Bob is wrong, his belief was incorrect And now God is upset with him because he did not believe God's Word
Now lets say Tina is wrong, that forever actually meant an age. Yet God will NOT be upset with her because she merely believed His Word which stated forever.
my point is, i would much rather believe the Word of God and what it says, and be wrong, and still please God because i believed it to be true because it was in His Word. Than to not believe the Word of God and what it says, and be right or wrong. Right because i prove God's word to not be correct, wrong because i did not believe the Word of God as it was given to me. if the Word of God tells me they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for ever and ever, i believe it. Regardless if it is right or wrong, i believe it because it is written in the Words of God, and it pleases God that, as a child, merely believe it is True, because it says it is True. The difference is this. i can say I believe the Word of God and what it says concerning those who are cast into the Lake of Fire that they will be there for ever and ever. I can say that because that is what it plainly says and teaches, you say something that is contrary to what it plainly says and teaches, what you believe to be the Truth contradicts what it actually says, because you have taken it to the Hebrew and Greek, you have deduced that it, the Word of God, does not mean what it says, because there is a better interpretation for that word. i know they are cast into the Lake of Fire forever and ever, i know this because that is what the Word of God says, those who do not believe what it plainly says, are they who do not believe what the Word of God says.

No. You cannot. Yet they are the same Greek words. Now, I am not discounting the fact that Greek words cannot have different meanings, but you have to realize that both the definition in the Greek and the origin of the definiition for the English word "ever" both can be defined in a temporal way.

But what if God gave us the KJV EXACTLY as He did? What i mean is if the KJV says for ever and ever, what if that is Exactly what God wanted it to say? What if God wanted it to say for ever and ever, and NOT for an age? Another thing that makes me believe the Truth is it is forever and ever, exactly as it says, is because there are verses which support that, such as the verse that says everlasting punishment, let me show you some verses which support it is indeed forever and ever

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

II Thess 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Daniel 12:And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,(forever) and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(forever)

Now all these verses seem to agree and do not contradict those being cast into the Lake of Fire forever and ever. Your Turn show me any verse which says or even implies that those cast into the Lake of Fire it is for an age, or temporary? one verse will do. You can't find it, because it is not True. So then to, as you say, logically deduce a conclusion, what should that then be? Should i choose to believe that what it says forever and ever, is indeed forever, because there are other verses which says the same thing, or am i to believe you which teach it is NOT forever and ever like it says, but the better translation for the word according to the Greek, is "an age" and have no Scriptures that back that up? Which one should i logically believe?

Well you continue to believe as you do brother, continue to believe what you think the Hebrew and Greek are telling you. as for me, i will continue to believe the Truth, until which point you can show me Scriptures, NOT HEBREW/Greek to back up what you believe.

Well, the Old English from the 1600's backs me up as well. In addition, the Conditionalist view on Revelation 20:10 also is the most consistent with the rest of verses in the Bible, too. Well, that is if you want to see it. If you don't want to see it, then no amount of verses that I provide for you will help you.

Anyways, may God bless you.
And please be well.

There it is, the LOVE in your heart brother, Those who do not have LOVE in their hearts do not end posts to those they disagree with. Again i say, and it is the Truth, you are not far from the Kingdom of God.

Side Note:

Oh, and please do not take offense, but your avatar is not what Jesus really looked like. I believe that such a drawing is false image of him. Jesus was not European/ White; He was Jewish who was darker in skin color. He also did not have long hair, either.

Jesus is not white, red, black, Jew, Greek, Gentile, Jesus is as who He chooses to be at any given time that He chooses. When Jesus came back after His crucifixion, they did not even recognize Him, because He did not look like He did prior to being killed. What He actually looks like is irrelevant. He can look however He wants. When we see Him, He may look like Moses might look like, white hair, white beard, blue eyes. Or He may choose to look like Gollem in the Lord of the Rings. i did not choose that avatar because i think that is what He actually looks like, i chose that avatar for the exact same reason that every shirt i wear witness Jesus Christ, and every car that i have ever drove, bumper stickers of Jesus all over it, and that reason is because it makes people think of Jesus, my Savior and Lord. Regardless what He actually looked like, my avatar makes people think of Jesus. Wouldn't it have been better if you would have merely asked me why i chose that avatar, instead of assuming it was because that is what i actually thought He looked like?

Love you brother, i do, keep up the good work, i have read many of your posts, and you are not far from the Kingdom of God as i have been saying.

^i^

 

[Jason0047]

i appreciate you trying to give me the credit. But i must refuse that, it is not my interpretation, but what was told to me, therefore the credit belongs to Him who told that me.

So no other believer believes what you believe? Surely you would have a set of verses for others to examine your work. No?

Please read the article KJV vs Other Versions.

Well, you don't need to promote your own website article in order to convince me. I already believe the KJV is perfect and without error and that is divinely preserved for our world language today. I believe many Modern Translations are corrupt and have attempted to attack the KJV. However, I also think Modern Translations can be helpful in updating the Old 1600's English in many other passages, though. If you have not run into the problem of understanding the KJV in certain places, then I would say that you are not being honest with yourself. I am KJV-only, too --- but let's not pretend for a second it is written in an easy to understand language for all people. Especially in the Old Testament. Many Modern Translations can help to clear up the Old English on many passages that can appear confusing at times. I believe God does this so as to hide truth from people. For we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God.

Like I said, the word "ever" in Revelation 20:10 back in the 1600's could be understood as in reference to being an "age." Just as the word "gay" at one time in the past could be spoken publicly without getting any strange glances from people. To put it to you another way, words change with the passage of time. The KJV is written in Old English and not Modern English which can be difficult to understand sometimes.

Oh and i forgot to ask you in the previous post to read The Meaning of Life which you might find interesting.

I appreciate the link, and started to skim thru the article but couldn't get into it. I see a lot of opinion but no actual verses. That to me is dangerous. We are not to go beyond what is written.

Also i would like to say at this time, i think you are not far from the Kingdom of God.

So you are saying I am not saved? I disagree. I am born again spiritually by the power of Jesus Christ and have the Spirit. I have repented of my sins and have accepted Christ. If I do slip up, I confess my sins so as to be cleansed of any or all unrighteousness. I am not saved based on any works of righteousness that I might do, but I am saved by God's grace and mercy. But this does not give me a license to do whatever I like, though. I am to follow the Commands as given in the New Testament and not the Old Testament. But I am of the Kingdom of God. Not because of me. I am nothing. Christ is everything. So please do not judge my salvation and say you think I am not far from the Kingdom of God. I am already seated with Christ in heavenly places.

i since you have a good spirit in you, and LOVE OTHERS, i get the feeling you are one of those people who would give the shirt off your back if someone needed it.

Again. I am nothing. What I am is by the grace of God. I am commanded by God to love Him and all other people (Including my enemies). Loving others is very important to me. For he that does not love does not know God.

i know it seems i am being hard, i am not pleasant of speech. i come across arrogant and self-righteous, But that is not my intent. When you KNOW The Truth, because God revealed it to you, how can you not come across arrogant?

No, we are to be humble and not arrogant, my friend. See the Parables of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee.

anyways back to our topic

You asked me " haven't you ever read a passage that was sometimes more clear and easy to understand in another translation vs. the KJV? "

i have never read another translation period. except Hebrew / Greek / Latin. i am not saying other versions are wrong. Any translation that can bring a person to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can't be a bad book. If you click on KJV vs Other Version, you can see all that have to say on that matter.

Like I said. I am KJV-only, too. I look at Modern Translations as sifting thru the dirt to get to the gold that is in the KJV and the original languages. From my studies, there have been times when the KJV was more confusing. I have heard about die hard KJV-onlyists who somehow think the KJV is always easy to understand. But that would be a lie, though (Unless you lived during the 1600's when they spoke Old English or something).

But yes. I believe every word in the KJV is perfect and without error. That doesn't mean it was written in Modern English, though.

You ask at the end Why is that? The Word of God was made in such a way, to weed out people who did not Truly want to learn it. How many people have read it partly and said it is too confusing and then never pick it up again. The Word of God was made in such a way, that the more you read it, the more the spirit inside of you grows. The more it gets fed, the more it grows, the more you read the Word, the more it is fed. The more it grows the more it has the Strength to reveal something to you, for example you have read a verse many time, but then like lightning, the meaning of that verse opens up to you, and it is revealed to you. That is because the spirit only at that time was strong enough in you to reveal it to you. Those who read the Word of God every single day will have a stronger, healthier spirit then that person who only hears the Word when they go to Church. There is nothing wrong with the KJV, those who don't understand it, it is because they did not read it enough to feed their spirit to reveal it to them. Other versions have came to be because people said the KJV is in need of becoming simpler, easier to understand. Woe is the author of confusion? satan is. Look at us now, we have hundreds of different versions now, all of which claim to be the Word of God. And all this confusion for what? Because 40 people said the KJV was too hard to understand. It was hard to understand, because they did not read it enough. Those who have read it many times, ask them if it is still confusing or not? But those who read it maybe once, if that, are the same ones who said we need a new version.

So I have to keep reading a passage that I do not understand repeatedly until I get it versus say gaining an understanding of that passage instantly with a Modern Translation? Granted, Modern Translations are not perfect and they have they corrupt the Word of God in many passages. But there also many other good passages that are helpful, though. Start looking at Modern Versions for a change. Don't look at them as something evil. Think of them as if you were panning for gold. They are merely tools. Nothing more.

God did create evil. In that He created Lucifer, and Lucifer was responsible for creating evil, than God created evil because He created Lucifer. He also uses evil for His purposes. He allowed satan in the Garden of Eden in the first place. What He could not prevent the devil from being there? What? He did not know he was there? God knew, and He allowed the devil in there to tempt them with the very thing they were commanded not to do. God did not want them to eat of the Tree of knowledge, but it was His plan to send His only Son to the Earth, even before He created the Earth, therefore they had to sin, in order for Him to send His Son. The devil was in there for a reason, and it served God's purpose,

No. God did not directly create evil. God did not plan or set out for Lucifer to be evil. God created free willed beings who have the choice to choose good or evil. Also, Adam and Eve were not forced to eat of the wrong tree. Neither were they coerced. God did not prevent Adam and Eve from eating of the tree. Neither did God force them to eat of the tree. It was their choice. Now did God know all of what was going to happen? Yes, of course. God is eternal and immortal. His creation is not eternal.

 

[Jason0047]

Jesus is not white, red, black, Jew, Greek, Gentile, Jesus is as who He chooses to be at any given time that He chooses. When Jesus came back after His crucifixion, they did not even recognize Him, because He did not look like He did prior to being killed. What He actually looks like is irrelevant. He can look however He wants. When we see Him, He may look like Moses might look like, white hair, white beard, blue eyes. Or He may choose to look like Gollem in the Lord of the Rings. i did not choose that avatar because i think that is what He actually looks like, i chose that avatar for the exact same reason that every shirt i wear witness Jesus Christ, and every car that i have ever drove, bumper stickers of Jesus all over it, and that reason is because it makes people think of Jesus, my Savior and Lord. Regardless what He actually looked like, my avatar makes people think of Jesus. Wouldn't it have been better if you would have merely asked me why i chose that avatar, instead of assuming it was because that is what i actually thought He looked like?

Love you brother, i do, keep up the good work, i have read many of your posts, and you are not far from the Kingdom of God as i have been saying.

^i^

No. Jesus is not a shape shifter. Jesus was the king of the Jews. Jesus Christ salvation is of the Jews. The Lord desires for people to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

 

[Jason0047]

No. Jesus is not a shape shifter. Jesus was the king of the Jews. Jesus Christ salvation is of the Jews. The Lord desires for people to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Edit Correction:

Jesus Christ SAID salvation is of the Jews.

 

[DiscipleDave]

You are a witness against your own self. You say "Look, I have never heard anyone preach this particular viewpoint on Hell before" So you testify that this is the first time you have heard of this. Yet you put the burden of proof on me. you have been disagreeing with me from the start, and have not showed one Scriptures to prove me wrong, have you? Why are you not like the Bereans? Which when they heard something that have never heard before went to the Scriptures to see if they were true or not. You have testified this is the first time you have heard this about Hell, yet have not gone to the Scriptures to see if what i am saying is true or not, but have altogether passed the buck by saying "that i should back up what i am saying with Scriptures" Friend i have nothing to prove to you, i know what the Truth is, and from who i have received it. if this is the first time you have heard this about Hell, it would seem to me, that you would be searching the Scriptures to see if it is True or not. You are the one who has never heard of this before, i know where i have heard and know the Truth, it is not my place to prove to you what He has already told me. You see i know what the Truth is, if you too want to the know what the Truth is concerning this matter then search it out in Scriptures, go into prayer, fast, meditate. i had to do those things much. How easy it is to pass the burden of proof to another.

The point I am getting at is that if what you say is true, then other believers out there would believe it, too.

Is it not written, the world will hate the Truth, reject it. Is it not written that Many will walk on the wide and easy path but a very few will FIND the narrow and difficult path. That verse alone should reveal that not many will find the Truth. i will tell you the Truth. MANY do not believe what i teach, because they do not believe Him who told me these things. Few do believe what i teach, because they have been taught by the same Master. If ONE listens to and believes the MANY, they will not believe the few who know the Truth.

There would be a label for it so I can research it with Scripture. I have already provided many many verses within this thread. I have also stated my Biblical position, which is "Conditional Immortality" (To be more specific, I believe in "Dualistic Conditionalism"). I have nothing to hide. In other words, I have already presented my case with Scripture. It is time you do the same.

Brother, i am sorry, but i am not learned, i do not have a clue what Conditional immortallity means, nor have i ever heard of this Dualistic Conditionalism religion, or denomination, or whatever it is, that you are talking about. OK you want Scriptures then please explain these Scriptures. For the viewers at home, the topic is concerning the verse which says they are cast into the Lake of Fire for ever and ever. Brother Jason believes it was not interpreted correctly because if you take the word for ever to the original Greek it means "an age" i believe it means exactly what it says, and Brother Jason is not asking me to show Scriptures.

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

II Thess 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Daniel 12:And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,(forever) and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(forever)

and now also included would be the very verse in question:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Ok, did you what you asked, now please show us the verses you think mean it is not forever and ever that it is only an age, or it is temporary.

You see the thing is, for me to be right, i merely believe what the above verses plainly say and teaches, for you to be right you have to change each one of those verses above to fit into what you think is True, take each verse to the Hebrew and Greek and see if they all say "an age", read all the surrounding verses around each one of those verses to see if you can somehow claim i am taking them out of context, this is going to be interesting indeed brother. waiting your reply.

As for fasting, praying, and meditating: Please do not take this the wrong way, my friend: But While it is good you fast and pray, boasting about it on a public forum is probably not the best way to go about it. The Scriptures say, do your good works in secret so that your Father in Heaven will reward you in secret.

what you call boasting another would call testifying. What then. i should not tell people to pray, fast, and meditate to get answers from God because i pray, fast and meditate to get answers from God, How does that make any since at all. If i were going to brag ungodly, which you now propels me to do so, to show you what is bragging and what is not, i would have said something like i fast three days every month, whatever i pray for i have always received, never once have i prayed for something that i did not get from God. i have seen Angels of God and spoke with them and they with me, i have had conversation with God Himself, i have seen visions, and have had dreams from God, i understand the Scriptures, prophesies and all, i have laid my hands on the dead and they have come back to life in the name of Jesus, sick are healed, Which all these things are True, now that would be boasting brother, telling you things that is not even relevant to the topic. But you saying that i am boasting because i said for you to fast, pray, and meditate as i do too. Then i think you don't know the meaning of the word boasting, what i said in previous posts is not boasting, what i have just got done telling you, now that is boasting, do you see the difference brother?

Friend what is it to me if you do not believe Him who has told me things?

Out of context loose quote. You are not Jesus.

Have i said that i was Jesus, or is that what you are thinking that i am saying about myself? i am not Jesus, but i am ONE with Him.

i have nothing to prove to you, i know what the Truth is.

So you were never wrong ever about a teaching in Scripture or a verse? I will admit I have been wrong before.

Who said that i have never been wrong? i have been wrong many times. i use to believe ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, i use to believe pre-trib, i use to believe water baptism saves you. i use to believe i could continue to knowingly and willingly obey satan without ceasing all the while still believing i was going to Heaven. i use to believe that God was coming in 2004. But tell me what does what i believe have anything to do with what God told me? Everything God told me is True, and has never been wrong, not one single time. Everything that He has told me has never contradicted even one verse in all of Scriptures. What i believe and my own thinking and my own studies is but dung, i am worthless, and like Paul, i have more sins than you doubled or even tripled. i am not worthy in the slightest, i don't know why He chose me to teach those things He told me, but He did, and i do. i myself have been wrong in many things, But what He has told me, has never been wrong or incorrect, what He has told me is the Truth, and it is never wrong.

Tell me something, if you being a leader of a state, say to a man, if you rape someone you will be put in prison for 10 years, if you rape a child you will be put into prison for life, if you kill somebody, the state will put you to death. Now lets say this man rapes a woman and her child and then kills them. When the State therefore executes their judgment on this man, are we to feel sorry for what has happened to this man? Was he not warned, did he not know the consequence of his actions? Anyone who get put into Hell, put their own self there. God will shed a tear for each and every one of them, But His hands are tied, do you know why they are tied, because God can't lie. If He says all fornicators will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, then i assure you anyone who is judged as being a fornicator, will NOT enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Because God can't lie. And the one who is living in fornication, God will use every tool at His disposal, HE will have His servants warn that person to stop doing that, He will have messages come up to warn him that it is evil and wicked, the Holy Spirit of God will also try to convict him, to make him feel guilty of his sin, in order to have him desire to stop doing it. But he continues anyways, despite all those coming to warn him from God, despite the messages, despite the convictions of the Holy Spirit of God, that person continues to live in fornication because that person is selfish, ungodly, and it does not matter what he says with his mouth or what he believes, His actions PROVE what is in his heart. and the Kingdom of Heaven will not accept ANYONE who is selfish. The Kingdom of Heaven desires to have ONLY those who LOVE OTHERS, and they are very few. So if that man ends up in Hell, it is not because God wanted him to go there, God, within the boundaries of His own Word, because He can't lie, HAS to PUT HIM THERE. Because that man refused to heed or listen to all the warnings to stop what he was doing.
Have you not heard the statement, the Bible talks more about Hell then it does Heaven, Yet Again a WARNING. Those who make light of what Hell actually is like, will not fear God who is able to put them there. You see to a wicked person Hell wouldn't be bad at all if you merely cease to exist, cease to be, how is that bad, sign me up. But if it is for ever and ever, maybe, just maybe, people will get on the right path for fear of God putting them in that terrible place that lasts forever and ever. And i have told you already WHY it is forever, because a spirit can't die, or be killed, or cease to exist. So the spirit in you will go to live in Heaven for all eternity, or it will be separated from God for all eternity, there is not ceasing to be. Those who are separated from God, choose to be separated from Him. If they go into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, it won't be because God did not try to help them not to go there, they refused God, shunned His help, and discard the messages that are sent unto them, they are lost, not because God wants them lost, they are lost because they choose not to be found by God.

There is nothing in what you had written here that would justify God in torturing a person who did not sin eternally to be punished for all time for a finite amount of crimes. Hey look, if you want to make God look bad by saying He will torture people forever, that is on you --- Not me.

Brother, i do not say He will torture people forever, First off is not He who will be doing the Torture and secondly it is the Word of God that teaches they will be cast into eternal fire forever. And i am sorry that does not fit what you believe to be the Truth, but the Word of God does not lie, and it is the Truth, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for ever and ever, and that is not what God wants for them, He desire for all to come to the Truth in His Son. But if they don't, it is because they chose not to. God does not torture anyone at all, He is a Loving God, But He is also an Honest God, and He is not a Liar. IF He says those who do not accept His Son will forever suffer the eternal fire, that is what HAS to happen, because HE is not a liar, and His Word is True, and just because you can't believe He will do this, does not mean it is not the Truth. You are making a grave mistake if you think God is a one sided coin, He is a very Loving God on the one side, and a Punishing One on the other, surely you can see that side in the Old Testament, He was going to kill every single person that came out of Egypt because they were worshiping an image, and would have if not for Moses interceding on their behalf. God can't stand, and even hates sin, Jesus is the only one who can stand in the presence of the Father right now, because He is the only one without sin

I will defend the goodness of God as He is clearly described to us within the Scriptures.

And what about the other side of the coin brother? What about all the killing in the old testament? What about the wrath of God that is coming upon the Earth. people seeking death, and won't even be able to find it. You are only believing the one side of God, the loving goodness, side, but you are altogether making void the other side of God, the one who gets Angry, and destroys, the one who will destroy the Earth and it atmosphere and most all life on it. You see Jesus as the man who walked on the Earth 2000 years ago, full of Love, compassion, Caring for others, meek, humble. You do not, nor are you willing to see the Jesus that will come with a sword, and He will kill millions, and if a kingdom will not obey Him, He will cause it not to rain in that country, He will rule with a rod of iron, NOT a hand of compassion. He is coming to take up the few who are worthy and destroy the rest who are not.

Unless of course you can actually give me a straight answer as to how it is just and fair for God to torture people waaaaay beyond their crimes.

And i will tell you the Truth, one of my articles tells you exactly how He does that.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

Brother Jason, please take no offense in this, but i am done talking this matter, you should be too. i have said what i was told, and you have said what you have learned, let us go on to better things, shall we.

If you do want to continue with our conversation then let us take one thing at a time. i have showed you verses which plainly teach the Lake of Fire is for ever and ever as it plainly says. your turn to reveal the verses that teach that it is NOT forever and ever. If you can't admit you are wrong in that, you will not admit you are wrong in others. So one thing at a time. waiting your verses that support that those who are cast into the Lake of Fire it is NOT forever and ever as it say it is.
Then we will continue with conversation.

God Bless and Love you brother. But when it seems i am saying the same things over and over again that is a sign it is time to move on, because what you are saying over and over again is not being received.

May the Lord Bless you and your family brother Jason

^i^