THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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eternally-gratefull said:
Are you perfect?

if you say yes. Then you are a liar

if you say no. then you still struggle with sin. and the law condemns you, unless you have done what the law shadowed in its teaching is required to receive forgiveness of sin.

end of story.
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then I guess I am perfect....
[h=1]Hebrews 10:9-14King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


 
newbirth said:
then I guess I am perfect....
Hebrews 10:9-14King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
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[h=1]1 John 3:1-4King James Version (KJV)[/h] 3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
 
newbirth said:
then I guess I am perfect....
Hebrews 10:9-14King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Click to expand...
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 
Brainfreeze said:
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
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thank God for our advocate...he is the propitiation for our sins
 
kennethcadwell said:
The problem you have with the sower and the seed is that it says they abided in the Word, which means they abided in Christ for a little while. And according to you and others once you have abided in Christ and received the Holy Spirit. Yet the parable says after they had abided then a deception or hardship caused them to walk away from the Lord. Then when you take that with Hebrews that shows that people after they have been in Christ and received the Holy Spirit can still fall away. Then on top of that Paul says how the Galatians fell from grace, but according to you that can not happen. Scripture says different.

You want salvation to be an instant thing, yet to many scriptures show that salvation is not and instant possession as they show only given to those who do the Fathers will, obey, and keep His commandments. You can debate with me all you want and keep trying to twist what I say, but you can not deny or argue against scripture. Wait a minute yes you can because you deny parts of it.

Example:

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

This scripture is a good example as I have seen you and another say this has nothing to do with salvation, even though our Lord Jesus says you have to endure to the end before being saved. Yet if we take it with what was written in the epistles we can see this is exactly what is being said. For scripture interprets scripture, and the apostles can not preach or teach differently than what Jesus already taught.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.


What is promised to us is eternal life, so once again once you have done the will of God in your life do you receive it. Not before.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.


Once again you have James confirming the same thing, and he uses the term crown of life for eternal life/salvation. And as you can see from the first part he says you have to remain steadfast under trial and not turn away do to a hardship in your life. Which this goes along with the parable of the sower and the seed group that our Lord says that they fall do to hardships, James says if they don't waver only then will they receive eternal life. Showing once again while a person walks in the flesh salvation/eternal life is not a definite unless they remain steadfast, endure, and stay obedient to Him.
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the problem with you is you do not understand, if you abide in Christ YOU WILL produce fruit.

Only one of the groups produced fruit, which proves only one of them abides in Christ.

You have people who do not have faith in Christ being saved. Thats a major problem.
 
newbirth said:
then I guess I am perfect....
Hebrews 10:9-14King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Click to expand...

Then you should not be preaching that you can lose salvation. You should be assured of your salvation, in fact all those verses prove you are secure in christ.

But I know you do not believe this, or teach it, so you would not practice what you just taught. .
 
Brainfreeze said:
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Click to expand...

Ok John tells us what these commandments are...he is not talking about the law of Moses. To have faith in Christ and love as Christ commanded us...which by the law IS THE ONLY WAY to fulfill the law...But being under the law itself is not of faith...because faith is trusting in the work of the Cross...not in our own works.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Then you should not be preaching that you can lose salvation. You should be assured of your salvation, in fact all those verses prove you are secure in christ.

But I know you do not believe this, or teach it, so you would not practice what you just taught. .
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you do not continue to read on in scripture...just because someone post a verse ...it does not mean you have to read that verse alone....read Heb 10 the whole chapter...
one has to remain sanctified...

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
 
Mitspa said:
Ok John tells us what these commandments are...he is not talking about the law of Moses. To have faith in Christ and love as Christ commanded us...which by the law IS THE ONLY WAY to fulfill the law...But being under the law itself is not of faith...because faith is trusting in the work of the Cross...not in our own works.
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Did I say something about laws of Moses or is that you telling me that's what it says ? Some here believe they are saved murderers ... Do you think this is possible ? Can I kill or steal from someone give half of what I stole to the church, scream hallaluYah ... and be saved ? This is foolishness.. The answer is NO.. One can't say he doesn't keep the commandments but he's saved.. If he does, he's a liar, the scripture is very clear on this..
 
newbirth said:
you do not continue to read on in scripture...just because someone post a verse ...it does not mean you have to read that verse alone....read Heb 10 the whole chapter...
one has to remain sanctified...

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
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you do not make a whole doctrinal belief off of one verse.

all those verses you posted proved eternal life is eternal. and can not be lost.

Your the one who posted that God has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

thus you are left with a major issue.

God has not perfected forever anyone.

or

Your interpretation of hebrews 10 is in error. (which it is because hebrews is talking about going back to law. In the law. WIlful sin was forgiven by a sacrifice, and these sacrifices had to continue. to go back to the law and sacrifice, and use that as a means to salvation. those sacrifices (which never took away sin to begin with) are useless.

there is no more sacrifice, because you have rejected the one sacrifice which could save you. which could "perfect you forever"
 
newbirth said:
did I not just post it ....you keep telling people what they believe and what they don't...same as mitspa....he keeps telling everyone they are under the law...
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You post it, but you do not believe it.

Because you believe his propitiary sacrifice is unable to save you forever. You just proved it with your last post.
 
eternally-gratefull said:

you do not make a whole doctrinal belief off of one verse.

all those verses you posted proved eternal life is eternal. and can not be lost.

Your the one who posted that God has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

thus you are left with a major issue.

God has not perfected forever anyone.
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eternal life is in Christ...one is sanctified in Christ by the word...which means obeying the word... the issue is with your wording....

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Your interpretation of hebrews 10 is in error. (which it is because hebrews is talking about going back to law. In the law. WIlful sin was forgiven by a sacrifice, and these sacrifices had to continue. to go back to the law and sacrifice, and use that as a means to salvation. those sacrifices (which never took away sin to begin with) are useless.

there is no more sacrifice, because you have rejected the one sacrifice which could save you. which could "perfect you forever"
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hebrew 10 is not about going back to the law...it is showing what the law was capable of and what Christ is capable of...that sacrifice perfects forever them that are sanctified...do you expect one who is not sanctified to be perfected? I obey the word and abide in Christ...so how did you arrive at me rejecting the one sacrifice....according to scripture I am sanctified...
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We have a lot of amish in this area. Good folks. Depending on their leader (I think they call them a Bishop) they live under various 'rules' so to speak. Some have black buggies, some brown, most do not like their picture taken or will hang picture sin their homes (graven images), Some do smoke (usually a pipe), they make thier own clothes,,,,,I could go on and on. Pain people? Well maybe but they do stand out in a crowd.
Said all that to say this. if people do things that they feel honestly are because it pleases God even though we may see it otherwise I feel that we are wrong in attempting to make an issue out of it in some cases.
>>>>[TABLE="class: table_bible"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]1Co 8:9[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. [/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
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1Co 8:10[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]

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1Co 8:11[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? [/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"]

[/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
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1Co 8:12[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. [/TD]
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[TD="class: td_bible_6_buttons, width: 57, align: left"][/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_verse_heading, width: 68, align: left"]
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1Co 8:13[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="class: td_bible_text"]Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.<<<<<<
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Some may have heard this,,,so be it.
There was a man who wanted to come to America. He saved and saved to get a ticket on a ship. finally he got a ticket and boarded the ship. It was a long journey and he was totally broke so after other had eaten he would go and scrounge the leftovers that he could find. This was a lot of work and kept him away from sleep and he was worried a lot as he wasn't in that great of shape anyhow, Finally as the ship was pulling into the New York Harbor. All the passengers were on deck and very happy to see land and the statue of Liberty. This man was leaning on the deck's rail when another person said to him, " friend are you okay? You look happy but at the same time look worn out, the man told him the story of how he savd and saved to get on the ship and then said how he ate scraps and worked so hard to stay afloat himself during the journey across the sea with all it's dangers and all. he was shocked when this person then said to him: My friend when you got your ticket your destination was sealed and I feel funny telling you this now but all the meals were included as well. You did not have to work as you did if you had only known the truth.
 
passinthru said:
Some may have heard this,,,so be it.
There was a man who wanted to come to America. He saved and saved to get a ticket on a ship. finally he got a ticket and boarded the ship. It was a long journey and he was totally broke so after other had eaten he would go and scrounge the leftovers that he could find. This was a lot of work and kept him away from sleep and he was worried a lot as he wasn't in that great of shape anyhow, Finally as the ship was pulling into the New York Harbor. All the passengers were on deck and very happy to see land and the statue of Liberty. This man was leaning on the deck's rail when another person said to him, " friend are you okay? You look happy but at the same time look worn out, the man told him the story of how he savd and saved to get on the ship and then said how he ate scraps and worked so hard to stay afloat himself during the journey across the sea with all it's dangers and all. he was shocked when this person then said to him: My friend when you got your ticket your destination was sealed and I feel funny telling you this now but all the meals were included as well. You did not have to work as you did if you had only known the truth.
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nice story ....the difference is in Christ you don't have to pay for your ticket and you have to labour for the meat that endures to everlasting life...

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
 
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