THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Here is the purpose of the law!
next verse:

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
next verse:

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."
Sure we admit the law is good...but we also admit it cannot be fulfilled through the written code because of the flesh...so we have to die the law and serve God by the Spirit.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Sure we admit the law is good...but we also admit it cannot be fulfilled through the written code because of the flesh...so we have to die the law and serve God by the Spirit.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
SO what was condemmed?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?
 
P

passinthru

Guest
Does anyone think I am contradictory by giving a 'like ' to both posts above? (One by Mispa and one by Hiz) :)
 
P

passinthru

Guest
I feel some of the confusion here in this thread is related to what is meant when we say 'law'.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
SO what was condemmed?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?
I think we can leave it to Paul to tell us what we were set free from of the law;

Galatians 3:13

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
 
H

haz

Guest
faith without works is dead bro...:
hi newbirth,

consider the hypothetical given in James 2 of faith without works, where one says to the naked and hungry "be warmed and filled" but they give them nothing for their condition. This speaks of those preaching the law (and remember the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12) who only offer what does nothing to cover the spiritual nakedness and hunger of the lost.

It's the lost who are spiritually naked as they lack the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation, Isa 61:10.

And its its the lost who are spiritually hungry, lacking Christ our spiritual food, 1Cor 10:3,4.

For Christians our works are, believe on Jesus, John 6:29. We who do the works of believing on Jesus, let our light (Christ in us) shine (Matt 5:16), preaching the gospel to feed the spiritually hungry and to clothe the spiritually naked. Works that shows our faith.
 
H

haz

Guest
we are not justified by the law ...we simply establish the law....through faith....
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
what do you think it means to "establish" the law?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
SO what was condemmed?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?
Sin in the flesh was judged and condemned with Christ....God is not judging us by the flesh and the law cannot condemn the believer who has faith in Christ and has accepted His righteousness.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
SO what was condemmed?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?
Sin in the flesh was judged and condemned with Christ....God is not judging us by the flesh and the law cannot condemn the believer who has faith in Christ and has accepted His righteousness.
SO what was condemmed?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?

?

 
M

Mitspa

Guest
SO what was condemmed?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?

?

sin in the flesh... I know that hard to understand but if I see a real desire in you at some point to know the truth ...I will help you understand.
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
hi newbirth,

consider the hypothetical given in James 2 of faith without works, where one says to the naked and hungry "be warmed and filled" but they give them nothing for their condition. This speaks of those preaching the law (and remember the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12) who only offer what does nothing to cover the spiritual nakedness and hunger of the lost.

It's the lost who are spiritually naked as they lack the robes of righteousness, the garment of salvation, Isa 61:10.

And its its the lost who are spiritually hungry, lacking Christ our spiritual food, 1Cor 10:3,4.

For Christians our works are, believe on Jesus, John 6:29. We who do the works of believing on Jesus, let our light (Christ in us) shine (Matt 5:16), preaching the gospel to feed the spiritually hungry and to clothe the spiritually naked. Works that shows our faith.
....faith without works is dead...are you saying James is teaching law and not faith....? you are talking rubbish ....do you not see FAITH without works is dead ....It is clear you have no understanding whatsoever....of what believe on him means..... it means to do what he says....you say you believe and do just the opposite of what he says...
Matthew 17:5

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mark 9:7
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Luke 9:35
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

This here shows nothing about spirit clothes and spirit food....it is about real clothes and real food...
[SUP]
31 [/SUP]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[SUP]35 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 
E

ELECT

Guest
Well said

1 Corinthians 11:8-9King James Version (KJV)

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.


Mark 2:27King James Version (KJV)


27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Woman was made for man
Sabbath was made for man
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
SO what was condemmed?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?
Sin in the flesh was judged and condemned with Christ....God is not judging us by the flesh and the law cannot condemn the believer who has faith in Christ and has accepted His righteousness.
SO what was condemmed?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?

?

sin in the flesh... I know that hard to understand but if I see a real desire in you at some point to know the truth ...I will help you understand.
You said, "sin in the flesh"

You dont want to answer this question for nothing huh?

SO what was condemned?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
what do you think it means to "establish" the law?
it means ....we do not make the law void(empty or meaningless)....Christ did not remove the law....he removes those who believe in him from the law...The law still condemns those who are not in Christ...there is no middle ground....it is either you are in Christ or not....
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
it means ....we do not make the law void(empty or meaningless)....Christ did not remove the law....he removes those who believe in him from the law...The law still condemns those who are not in Christ...there is no middle ground....it is either you are in Christ or not....
Of course the law still condemns those who are not in Christ...who are not justified by faith in Him.... No one has ever suggested anything other that the righteousness of faith? But those who promote the law.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
You said, "sin in the flesh"

You dont want to answer this question for nothing huh?

SO what was condemned?

Do not kill?

or

breaking do not kill?
Yes thats a biblical term...Hiz...if you would get rid of that silly translation you use, you would recognize common biblical terms.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Yes thats a biblical term...Hiz...if you would get rid of that silly translation you use, you would recognize common biblical terms.
Why is that translation "silly"

Because it does not follow the command of the pharisees and replace YHWH with "LORD"

Talmud - Mas. Sotah 38a
"Another [Baraitha] taught: ‘On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel’ — with the use of the Shem Hameforash.15 You say that it means with the Tetragrammaton; (Yahweh) but perhaps that is not so and a substituted name was used!

The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 7 page 680
The personal name... written in the Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH and is referred to as the "Tetragrammaton." At least until the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E. this name was regularly pronounced with its proper vowels, as is clear from the Lachish Letters, written shortly before that date. But at least by the third century B.C.E. the pronunciation of the name YHWH was avoided and Adonai,"the Lord,"was substituted for it.

Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds; Who devise; plan and scheme, to cause My people to forget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."

New King James Version (Holman) - Preface
"The covenant name of God was usually translated from the Hebrew word as LORD or GOD, using capital letters as shown, as in the King James Version. This convention is also maintained in the New King James Version when the Old Testament is quoted in the New."

Today's English Version - Preface
" Following an ancient tradition...begun by the first translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (the Septuagint) and followed by the vast majority of English translations, the distinctive Hebrew name for God (usually transliterated Jehovah or Yahweh), is in this translation represented by "LORD." When Adonai, normally translated "Lord," occurs preposed to Yahweh, the combination is rendered by the phrase "Sovereign LORD."

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Exodus 20:7, "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain." NASB

The word vain is the Hebrew word shav meaning: emptiness, vanity. Is it possible that removing Yahweh's name and replacing it with "the Lord" is making it empty?

Exodus 20:7, ""You shall not take the name of Yahweh your God in vain, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain." WEB

Exodus 20:7, "You shall not take the Name of Yahweh your strength to bring it to nothing, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who brings it to nothing."

7723 - shav
shav: emptiness, vanity - Original Word: שָׁוְא - Part of Speech: Noun Masculine - Transliteration: shav - Phonetic Spelling: (shawv) - Short Definition: vain

7723 - shav
NAS Exhaustive Concordance - Word Origin from an unused word - Definition: emptiness, vanity

7723 - shav
Brown-Driver-Briggs שָׁוְא noun [masculine] emptiness, vanity

7723 - shav
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) emptiness, vanity, falsehood - 1a) emptiness, nothingness, vanity - 1b) emptiness of speech, lying - 1c) worthlessness (of conduct)

Psalm 22:22, "I will declare Your Name to My brothers! In the midst of the congregation I will give You praise!"
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Why is that translation "silly"

Because it does not follow the command of the pharisees and replace YHWH with "LORD"

Talmud - Mas. Sotah 38a
"Another [Baraitha] taught: ‘On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel’ — with the use of the Shem Hameforash.15 You say that it means with the Tetragrammaton; (Yahweh) but perhaps that is not so and a substituted name was used!

The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 7 page 680
The personal name... written in the Hebrew Bible with the four consonants YHWH and is referred to as the "Tetragrammaton." At least until the destruction of the First Temple in 586 B.C.E. this name was regularly pronounced with its proper vowels, as is clear from the Lachish Letters, written shortly before that date. But at least by the third century B.C.E. the pronunciation of the name YHWH was avoided and Adonai,"the Lord,"was substituted for it.

Yeremyah 23:26-27, "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Yes, they are prophets of the deceit of their own minds; Who devise; plan and scheme, to cause My people to forget My Name through their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbor, just as their fathers have forgotten My Name for Baal."

New King James Version (Holman) - Preface
"The covenant name of God was usually translated from the Hebrew word as LORD or GOD, using capital letters as shown, as in the King James Version. This convention is also maintained in the New King James Version when the Old Testament is quoted in the New."

Today's English Version - Preface
" Following an ancient tradition...begun by the first translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (the Septuagint) and followed by the vast majority of English translations, the distinctive Hebrew name for God (usually transliterated Jehovah or Yahweh), is in this translation represented by "LORD." When Adonai, normally translated "Lord," occurs preposed to Yahweh, the combination is rendered by the phrase "Sovereign LORD."

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Exodus 20:7, "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain." NASB

The word vain is the Hebrew word shav meaning: emptiness, vanity. Is it possible that removing Yahweh's name and replacing it with "the Lord" is making it empty?

Exodus 20:7, ""You shall not take the name of Yahweh your God in vain, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain." WEB

Exodus 20:7, "You shall not take the Name of Yahweh your strength to bring it to nothing, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who brings it to nothing."

7723 - shav
shav: emptiness, vanity - Original Word: שָׁוְא - Part of Speech: Noun Masculine - Transliteration: shav - Phonetic Spelling: (shawv) - Short Definition: vain

7723 - shav
NAS Exhaustive Concordance - Word Origin from an unused word - Definition: emptiness, vanity

7723 - shav
Brown-Driver-Briggs שָׁוְא noun [masculine] emptiness, vanity

7723 - shav
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) emptiness, vanity, falsehood - 1a) emptiness, nothingness, vanity - 1b) emptiness of speech, lying - 1c) worthlessness (of conduct)

Psalm 22:22, "I will declare Your Name to My brothers! In the midst of the congregation I will give You praise!"
Hiz...do you understand the Talmud is about as evil as any book in this world? google "evil Talmud" and read up on things Hiz....get away from all this judizer stuff and come be one of us Blood bought Christians...:)