Is Christianity Monotheistic or has it become a Polytheistic religion?

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MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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Jan 8, 2009
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#101
The Son is not the Father. The Father is God and the Son is the man that He became there is an distinction there.
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Onwings you are contradicting yourself... because you've said previously that the Son is the Father...
your quotes from earlier posts:

post #1

There is 1 God ''The Father'' who became a man ''The Son''

post #2
Jesus is not 1/3 God He is fully God, Trinitarian claim they believe this but deny that He is the Father or Holy Spirit. To believe that Jesus is the Son of God only is to not believe He is God at all, and to believe He is God the Son only, is to believe He is only 1/3 of the Godhead, only 1/3 of the ''Trinity'' and to believe this is to believe that Jesus is only 1/3 God or a separate god from the Father, and Holy Spirit. Trinitarians deny that they believe Jesus is a separate god from the Father yet claim He is not the Father, they deny that they believe He is only 1/3 God, yet that is exactly what they teach.

#10
I am not a modalist???? and to deny that Jesus is the Father is to deny that Jesus is God at all. Jesus tells us Himself that the Father is the only true God, and Paul confirms it. There is not God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. There is only God the Father, the Son of God and the Spirit of God.




"The Father is God and the Son is the man that He became there is an distinction there. "

And so the difference between the Trinity and your view, is that the Trinity says God sent his Son to earth to become like us, an dyou say it was the Father who came to earth . So the Father sent Himself and didn't send his son? well thats not what the bible says.
And the Father gave birth to Himself did He with the virgin Mary? That's not right either and frankly doesn't make any sense.
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#102
#102
MahogonySnail said:
Onwings you are contradicting yourself... because you've said previously that the Son is the Father...
your quotes from earlier posts:

post #1

There is 1 God ''The Father'' who became a man ''The Son''

post #2
Jesus is not 1/3 God He is fully God, Trinitarian claim they believe this but deny that He is the Father or Holy Spirit. To believe that Jesus is the Son of God only is to not believe He is God at all, and to believe He is God the Son only, is to believe He is only 1/3 of the Godhead, only 1/3 of the ''Trinity'' and to believe this is to believe that Jesus is only 1/3 God or a separate god from the Father, and Holy Spirit. Trinitarians deny that they believe Jesus is a separate god from the Father yet claim He is not the Father, they deny that they believe He is only 1/3 God, yet that is exactly what they teach.

#10
I am not a modalist???? and to deny that Jesus is the Father is to deny that Jesus is God at all. Jesus tells us Himself that the Father is the only true God, and Paul confirms it. There is not God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. There is only God the Father, the Son of God and the Spirit of God.




"The Father is God and the Son is the man that He became there is an distinction there. "

And so the difference between the Trinity and your view, is that the Trinity says God sent his Son to earth to become like us, an dyou say it was the Father who came to earth . So the Father sent Himself and didn't send his son? well thats not what the bible says.
And the Father gave birth to Himself did He with the virgin Mary? That's not right either and frankly doesn't make any sense.
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Cutting off half of someones post to make it seem like they said something they did not is the same as an out right lie, deception is deception.

This is what I said.
onwingsaseagles said:
The Son is not the Father. The Father is God and the Son is the man that He became there is an distinction there. However the desctintion is not between the 1st and 2nd persons of the Trinity, but between the humanity and divinity of Christ.
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This is in line with what I have been saying all along. Jesus is both the Father and the Son, He is fully God (The Father) and fully Man (The Son). Lying does not promote you view it just taints your testimony.
 
olivetree32

olivetree32

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#103
Jan 4, 2009
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#103
onwingsaseagles said:
Olive tree just curious what do you think about this passage from John 17
John 17:1-3
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Jesus tell us that the Father is the only true God. So where does that leave the Son or the Holy Spirit if they are not the same being as the Father?
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well, as i was reading vs 3 this is what came to my mind.
That Jesus was saying to the world , that we might know God our Father through Jesus christ, His son.
because Jesus said also you have seen me, you have seen the Father in John.
 
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sonofjay817

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#104
#104
Onwingsaseagles, it is hard to understand the nature of the unity and distinction of the Godhead from the trinitarian point of view, and it is hard to reconcile all the dialogue going between the Father and Son from the Oneness point of view. And I'm not just referring to the dialogue that happened between them when Christ was here on Earth, but also when in the heavenly, exalted state. I gave these examples in my lengthy post on page two I believe it was. Generally when there's a hard thing to understand in the scriptures, the advice is to let the prevailing thrust of scripture on the subject determine one's doctrine and not one or two hard passages. I'm curious, what made you go to this view of God in spite of the many instances where the Father and Son seem to be two different persons? Was it because of this passage in Isaiah and also Christ saying "if you've seen me, you've seen the Father? It seems to me that its easier to interpret these passages under the template of the trinitarian point of view then it is to put all the instances of distinction between the Father and Son under the template of the Oneness doctrine. Was it your personal revelation that's brought you to this conclusion? Does this mean that the scriptures are insufficient and we all must have this revelation to see the truth?
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#105
#105
olivetree32 said:
well, as i was reading vs 3 this is what came to my mind.
That Jesus was saying to the world , that we might know God our Father through Jesus christ, His son.
because Jesus said also you have seen me, you have seen the Father in John.
Click to expand...
Right if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father because Jesus is the Father.
 
olivetree32

olivetree32

Senior Member
#106
Jan 4, 2009
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#106
onwingsaseagles said:
Olive tree just curious what do you think about this passage from John 17
John 17:1-3
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Jesus tell us that the Father is the only true God. So where does that leave the Son or the Holy Spirit if they are not the same being as the Father?
Click to expand...
so basically, jesus was saying to us, the world, that we might know God through Him.
 
O

onwingsaseagles

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#107
#107
sonofjay817 said:
Onwingsaseagles, it is hard to understand the nature of the unity and distinction of the Godhead from the trinitarian point of view, and it is hard to reconcile all the dialogue going between the Father and Son from the Oneness point of view. And I'm not just referring to the dialogue that happened between them when Christ was here on Earth, but also when in the heavenly, exalted state. I gave these examples in my lengthy post on page two I believe it was. Generally when there's a hard thing to understand in the scriptures, the advice is to let the prevailing thrust of scripture on the subject determine one's doctrine and not one or two hard passages. I'm curious, what made you go to this view of God in spite of the many instances where the Father and Son seem to be two different persons? Was it because of this passage in Isaiah and also Christ saying "if you've seen me, you've seen the Father? It seems to me that its easier to interpret these passages under the template of the trinitarian point of view then it is to put all the instances of distinction between the Father and Son under the template of the Oneness doctrine. Was it your personal revelation that's brought you to this conclusion? Does this mean that the scriptures are insufficient and we all must have this revelation to see the truth?
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First of all good post, secondly there are many passages that causes me to believe Oneness. John 1:1,2 & 14 John 10:30, John 14:7-9, John 14:18, John 17:1-3, 1st Cor 8:6, Colosians 2:9, 1st Timothy 2:5, 1st Timothy 3:16, and 1st John 5:7 to start with, and no the verse in Isiah did not come to my attention until after I had formed this view and was studying it. God id reveal this to me, and I believe that scripture confirms it not that personal revelation is more important than scripture.


I was raised trinitarian and never doubted it. I got saved about 5 1/2 years ago, when I got saved I started reading the N.T. over and over again God filling me like a spung. Aboitu 2 years into my walk during a 30 day fast God started revealing to me the truth of His nature, and it was not Trinitarian. I had no idea what it was actually called, I ontinued to study the scripture and formulate the view. About 6 months after the fast I got a computer and found that there was a teaching that taught exactly what God had shown me to be true. It was the doctrine of Oneness. I was amazed by this I had no idea that the revelation God gave me was actually taught in churches. I am fully pursuaded By the Holy spopirit and the scriptures that the teaching of Onenss is true. However I still attend my Trinitarian church, I do not think they are going to hell for their view of the Trinity and I oppose the Oneness Pentecostals on many of th4eir other views. However I believe God had revealed to me His treuth and I believe scripture confirms this truth not vise versa.
 
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onwingsaseagles

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#108
#108
olivetree32 said:
so basically, jesus was saying to us, the world, that we might know God through Him.
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Yes Jesus was saying that we can only truly know God except through Christ.
 
olivetree32

olivetree32

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#109
Jan 4, 2009
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#109
well, you belive that the holy spirit is God right?
 
NoahsDad

NoahsDad

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Oct 30, 2006
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Slepsog4 said:
So what you are suggesting is that God is playing Games.

Baptism: Jesus in person + the Holy Spirit (dove) + the Father (voice) = 3

Promise: I, Jesus (1), will ask the Father (1) to send the Holy Spirit (1) = 3

The Father is divine (God) but He is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit.
The Son is divine (God) but He is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is divine (God) but he is not the Father, nor the Son.

One what; Three who = Trinity (tri + unity)
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So.........You do believe in worshiping 3 seperat gods? stinks of molechism to me
 
NoahsDad

NoahsDad

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Oct 30, 2006
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#111
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 12:1 And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me.
Isa 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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#113
Jan 8, 2009
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#113
Cutting off half of someones post to make it seem like they said something they did not is the same as an out right lie, deception is deception.
Click to expand...
What was it that you did not say, that I showed you to be saying? I showed that you have been saying "the Son is the Father" all along. Do you deny that you said the Son is the Father? Because that's exactly what you did say:


This is in line with what I have been saying all along. Jesus is both the Father and the Son, He is fully God (The Father) and fully Man (The Son). Lying does not promote you view it just taints your testimony.
Click to expand...

post #105
Right if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father because Jesus is the Father.
Click to expand...


The bible says, that the Father sent the Son, not that the Father became the Son. The Son was born of the virgin Mary, and the Father, so the Son cannot be the Father.
The Son was sent from God, the son was begotten, the Son was not the Father.

1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was revealed in us, because God sent His only begotten Son into the world that we might live through Him.


Father became the Son, therefore the Son is the Father. That's modalism I'm afraid, one of the oldest heresies in the church. It's otherwise known as Sabellianism, because its origins started with Sabellius a priest in the 3rd centuary. Although there are different variations of it, that's what it is. It's interesting to note they too, like you onwings, said people should only be baptised in the name of Jesus because they denied the Trinity.

It is reported that Sabellians experienced glossolalia and baptized in the"shorter formula" because of their denial of the Trinity.[10] Saballians were referred to by the following Church fathers: Dionysius (c.200-265 AD) wrote "Those baptized in the name of three persons...though baptized by heretics..shall not be rebaptized. But those converted from other heresies shall be perfected by the baptism of the Holy Church." [11] "Sabellius...blasphemes in saying that the Son Himself is the Father and vice versa." [12] "Jesus commands them to baptize into the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-not into a unipersonal God." [13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellius
 
NoahsDad

NoahsDad

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#114
Oct 30, 2006
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#114
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
so now the Bible teaches heresy?
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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#115
Jan 8, 2009
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#115
No, they believed the heresy of modalism, and this was why they did not baptise in the name of the Trinity, contrary to the Lord's command to baptise in the name of the three.
 
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next_step

Guest
#116
#116
Wing thinks if Jesus is not the father he cannot be god. Maybe he was impressed by arguments of unitarians and went this way. However...a stange believe that has no biblical evidence at all. When you read the bible as a whole it is all so clear.
 
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Slepsog4

Guest
#117
#117
NoahsDad,

NO. You too have not apprehended what the Bible teaches. ONE God; THREE persons

One what; three who
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#118
#118
MahogonySnail said:
What was it that you did not say, that I showed you to be saying? I showed that you have been saying "the Son is the Father" all along. Do you deny that you said the Son is the Father? Because that's exactly what you did say:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellius
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No I never said the Son was the Father, what I said is that Jesus was both the Father and the Son, there is a difference in those 2 statements. I am not a Sabellius/Modalist, I am an Oneness believer.
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#119
#119
next_step said:
Wing thinks if Jesus is not the father he cannot be god. Maybe he was impressed by arguments of unitarians and went this way. However...a stange believe that has no biblical evidence at all. When you read the bible as a whole it is all so clear.
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I was impressed by scriputre and scripture alone you claim that it has no biblical evidence, but I believe you simply ignore what the scripture says about who is truly God.

John 17:1-3
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Jesus Himself tells us that the only true God is the Father, so if Jesus is not the Father He is not God. and Paul confirms this in 1st Corinthians 8:6

1st Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father.....
 
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onwingsaseagles

Guest
#120
#120
NoahsDad said:
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
so now the Bible teaches heresy?
Click to expand...
MahogonySnail said:
No, they believed the heresy of modalism, and this was why they did not baptise in the name of the Trinity, contrary to the Lord's command to baptise in the name of the three.
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Mahogony, are you saying that the 12 Apostles believed the heresy of Modalism and were baptizing people incorrectly? That is really arogant for you to think that you know more about who Jesus is than His own Apostles, the people He picked to start the Church.
 
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