EARLIEST REF TO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE/REMOVAL AFTER NT: EPHRAEM'S SERMON
- Thread starter Atwood
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T
This is analogous to the new birth. When a man trusts Christ as Savior and is born again, the old man is not evaporated & made non-existent. The born again man is still the same person as before. But instead of utter destruction, the old has become new. What lies between Old Man & New Man is transformation (metamorphosis). This is like the metamorphosis of Christ at His death & resurrection. After the resurrection He appeared in a new morphē (new form following meta-morph-osis). Thus I find it probable that the new earth is a transformation (metamorphosis) of the old, though a drastic metamorphosis.
There seems to be a problem here. If the paper is dated 4-8 AD, how does anyone know of the AntiChrist as there wasn't even a Christian religion at this time. If you are referring to the Sheppard of Hermas it's dated around 150 AD.
Sheppard???
I posted: "It may be that the Shepherd of Hermas is the most ancient (readily available) document which indicates that the Church is not on earth during the tribulation."
I meant to say, "most ancient after the NT."
It appears that some are very eager to argue against the pre-Trib theory on the basis that no one believed it before Darby (or before a crazy Scot girl or before some Jesuit). Then when ol Epraem pops up, the pettifogging goes to arguing about how he is not the real Ephraem, but a pseudo- and how his date is disputed. But if it is 8th century, at least that is long before Darby. IMHO, the date is during the Roman empire, before its fall, from the internal evidence of what it says. On the other hand, the different Syriac document appears to be after the Islamic invasions began.
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Now I understand clearly why you believe one can lose their salvation....if you go around preaching this, it is no wonder why you go around preaching the loss of salvation
Thou shalt not fire cannon balls at canary birds. Thou shalt not bear false witness! Liars go to the Lake of Fire.
From what you post, it appears that you foggishly misunderstand.
Lose & salvation never occur even in one verse together in the Bible.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
OSS = Once saved, saved!
That is the POV that once Christ saves you, then you beez saved!
Put on Christ, & make no provision for the flesh (the Old Man) to fulfill its lusts.
See Old Man & New Man in Eph & Col.
The Christian certainly can act out of his Old Man flesh.
Christians do a lot of sinning as James indicates. We stumble.
The Christian is admonished to be transformed by the renewing of the mind,
and by beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord (2 Cor 3:18).
T
Highwayman LOL.
Thou shalt not fire cannon balls at canary birds. Thou shalt not bear false witness! Liars go to the Lake of Fire.
From what you post, it appears that you foggishly misunderstand.
Lose & salvation never occur even in one verse together in the Bible.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
OSS = Once saved, saved!
That is the POV that once Christ saves you, then you beez saved!
Put on Christ, & make no provision for the flesh (the Old Man) to fulfill its lusts.
See Old Man & New Man in Eph & Col.
The Christian certainly can act out of his Old Man flesh.
Christians do a lot of sinning as James indicates. We stumble.
The Christian is admonished to be transformed by the renewing of the mind,
and by beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord (2 Cor 3:18).
Thou shalt not fire cannon balls at canary birds. Thou shalt not bear false witness! Liars go to the Lake of Fire.
From what you post, it appears that you foggishly misunderstand.
Lose & salvation never occur even in one verse together in the Bible.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
OSS = Once saved, saved!
That is the POV that once Christ saves you, then you beez saved!
Put on Christ, & make no provision for the flesh (the Old Man) to fulfill its lusts.
See Old Man & New Man in Eph & Col.
The Christian certainly can act out of his Old Man flesh.
Christians do a lot of sinning as James indicates. We stumble.
The Christian is admonished to be transformed by the renewing of the mind,
and by beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord (2 Cor 3:18).
This is Off Topic. I have waxed profuse on salvation elsewhere. See ,my thread on eternal security, "It is satanic heresy to deny eternal security," or something like that.
Highwayman,
Kindly refrain from uttering lies and blaspheming Christians.
2 Cor 5 says that old things pass away and all becomes new. But there remains this Old Man morphe which can spring into action at any time. The admonitions to be transformed (metaMORPHosized) are directed to Christians (Rom 12; 2 Cor 3:18). Christians do not become without Sin when they get saved. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. "When the law came, sin revived & I died . . . I am carnal, sold under sin" Rom 7. The carnal state is possible for a Christian. There is no sinless perfection in this life.
Works do maintain salvation, but they are the works of God, not of man. For man it is: Faith > Salvation > works; not works > salvation.
You know, judging is a sin.
Eph 2 states it clearly:
:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Atwood, you espouse works based faith to maintain salvation, you do not believe the spirit of the man is instantly transformed at conversion.
Kindly refrain from uttering lies and blaspheming Christians.
2 Cor 5 says that old things pass away and all becomes new. But there remains this Old Man morphe which can spring into action at any time. The admonitions to be transformed (metaMORPHosized) are directed to Christians (Rom 12; 2 Cor 3:18). Christians do not become without Sin when they get saved. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. "When the law came, sin revived & I died . . . I am carnal, sold under sin" Rom 7. The carnal state is possible for a Christian. There is no sinless perfection in this life.
Works do maintain salvation, but they are the works of God, not of man. For man it is: Faith > Salvation > works; not works > salvation.
You know, judging is a sin.
Eph 2 states it clearly:
:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
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Interesting mid 19th Cent book on Ephraem the Syrian
https://archive.org/details/selectedworksofs00ephrrich
https://archive.org/details/selectedworksofs00ephrrich
T
This is Off Topic. I have waxed profuse on salvation elsewhere. See ,my thread on eternal security, "It is satanic heresy to deny eternal security," or something like that.
Highwayman,
Kindly refrain from uttering lies and blaspheming Christians.
2 Cor 5 says that old things pass away and all becomes new. But there remains this Old Man morphe which can spring into action at any time. The admonitions to be transformed (metaMORPHosized) are directed to Christians (Rom 12; 2 Cor 3:18). Christians do not become without Sin when they get saved. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. "When the law came, sin revived & I died . . . I am carnal, sold under sin" Rom 7. The carnal state is possible for a Christian. There is no sinless perfection in this life.
Works do maintain salvation, but they are the works of God, not of man. For man it is: Faith > Salvation > works; not works > salvation.
You know, judging is a sin.
Eph 2 states it clearly:
:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Highwayman,
Kindly refrain from uttering lies and blaspheming Christians.
2 Cor 5 says that old things pass away and all becomes new. But there remains this Old Man morphe which can spring into action at any time. The admonitions to be transformed (metaMORPHosized) are directed to Christians (Rom 12; 2 Cor 3:18). Christians do not become without Sin when they get saved. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. "When the law came, sin revived & I died . . . I am carnal, sold under sin" Rom 7. The carnal state is possible for a Christian. There is no sinless perfection in this life.
Works do maintain salvation, but they are the works of God, not of man. For man it is: Faith > Salvation > works; not works > salvation.
You know, judging is a sin.
Eph 2 states it clearly:
:1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
there you go again...stating works maintain salvation....you imply it can be lost....
No, salvation cannot be lost or it would not be salvation. I am going to answer you on a new thread, as this is OT here.
I answer you here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ly-works-gods-works-not-mans.html#post1842033
Please continue the discussion if you intend to continue at that thread. I post a link below:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ly-works-gods-works-not-mans.html#post1842033
I did some more searching, and it turns out apparently that there is a rather undisputed sermon by the actual Ephraem (not pseudo-) which looks to me on first glance also to be Pre-Trib. Now this dude lived in the 300's AD. (c. 306-373). I found this pdf file on line, which is probably from an Evangelical Quarterly journal article, article by David Bennett:
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2008-2_143.pdf
David Malcolm Bennett
Raptured or Not
That is the Question
EQ 80.2 (2008), 143-161
Ephraem (c.306-73)
Q:
(30) ... Because the eye of the soul
is not alert through great blindness
and vain distractions, for this reason we are unable to perceive the tribulation upon us.
(31) See, the holy and just are even now being chosen and gathered into the harbour of life,
(32) that they might not see the tribulation and scandals which are coming upon us through our sins...
(33) They are being chosen, and we are nodding off.
[At this point it looks like Ephraem is speaking as an unsaved person, playing the role of the unsaved? Or does he use saints in the RCC sense & teach a partial rapture only of the holy-shmoly?:]
They are being snatched away, and we are being dragged off towards the vain world...
They are going
with boldness towards God...
The Lord's coming is at the doors...
(34) The heavenly trumpet is ready to sound
at God's command, and the universe to shake
at its dread call, that it may rouse the dead
and that each may be rewarded in accordance with their deeds.
(35) The powers of heaven stand ready
in their ranks to advance with fear
before the Bridegroom as he comes in glory
on the clouds of heaven to judge the living and the dead...
(37) If we do not now hasten and weep unrestrainedly, repenting fully in humility of soul
and great meekness, how each one of us is going
to lament at the tribulation...
(39) When we see the saints
again in glory, flying in light
on the clouds of the air to meet Christ,
the King of Glory, but see ourselves
in the great tribulation, who will be able to bear that shame and the dread reproach?24
Then he concludes,
(44) For see, the Lord is standing at the door
to bring to an end this vain age. /Q
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2008-2_143.pdf
David Malcolm Bennett
Raptured or Not
That is the Question
EQ 80.2 (2008), 143-161
Ephraem (c.306-73)
in one of his sermons, On the Fathers who have Completed their Course,
Ephraem speaks . . . .
Then, in one of his sermons, On the Fathers who have Completed their Course,
Ephraem speaks about the intermediate state, but also teaches about the end.
He reflects upon the loss of 'perfect fathers and venerable ascetics' who have already been gathered
(Stanza 21) ... into the haven of life
and into eternal joy, that they might be glad there,
and in the Paradise of pleasure and the heavenly bridal chamber they might take their delight in the immortal Bridegroom
with the greatest joy.23
He next mourns at length the sinfulness and slackness of the Christians that surround him, and then continues,
Ephraem speaks . . . .
Then, in one of his sermons, On the Fathers who have Completed their Course,
Ephraem speaks about the intermediate state, but also teaches about the end.
He reflects upon the loss of 'perfect fathers and venerable ascetics' who have already been gathered
(Stanza 21) ... into the haven of life
and into eternal joy, that they might be glad there,
and in the Paradise of pleasure and the heavenly bridal chamber they might take their delight in the immortal Bridegroom
with the greatest joy.23
He next mourns at length the sinfulness and slackness of the Christians that surround him, and then continues,
(30) ... Because the eye of the soul
is not alert through great blindness
and vain distractions, for this reason we are unable to perceive the tribulation upon us.
(31) See, the holy and just are even now being chosen and gathered into the harbour of life,
(32) that they might not see the tribulation and scandals which are coming upon us through our sins...
(33) They are being chosen, and we are nodding off.
[At this point it looks like Ephraem is speaking as an unsaved person, playing the role of the unsaved? Or does he use saints in the RCC sense & teach a partial rapture only of the holy-shmoly?:]
They are being snatched away, and we are being dragged off towards the vain world...
They are going
with boldness towards God...
The Lord's coming is at the doors...
(34) The heavenly trumpet is ready to sound
at God's command, and the universe to shake
at its dread call, that it may rouse the dead
and that each may be rewarded in accordance with their deeds.
(35) The powers of heaven stand ready
in their ranks to advance with fear
before the Bridegroom as he comes in glory
on the clouds of heaven to judge the living and the dead...
(37) If we do not now hasten and weep unrestrainedly, repenting fully in humility of soul
and great meekness, how each one of us is going
to lament at the tribulation...
(39) When we see the saints
again in glory, flying in light
on the clouds of the air to meet Christ,
the King of Glory, but see ourselves
in the great tribulation, who will be able to bear that shame and the dread reproach?24
Then he concludes,
(44) For see, the Lord is standing at the door
to bring to an end this vain age. /Q
EPHRAEM'S SERMON, WITH DISPUTED DATE IN THE RANGE IV-VIII AD,
& some claim it is a pseudo-Ephraem
But it is not really important who gave the sermon, but the earliness of the document tosses out the dogmatic dismissal of pre-trib rapture as invented by some Jesuit or crazy Scottish girl late in history. Also in Ephraem, it appears that the rapture or removal of the saints is an event distinguished from Christ's return to destroy the Antichrist.
It may be that the Shepherd of Hermas is the most ancient (readily available) document which indicates that the Church is not on earth during the tribulation. But after the New Testament, the first document I know of that speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture/removal is a document attributed to one Ephraem (possibly in collaboration with one Isidor of Seville?), a document of disputed date, but dated IV-VIII AD. The Title is (In English) On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World A Sermon.
& some claim it is a pseudo-Ephraem
But it is not really important who gave the sermon, but the earliness of the document tosses out the dogmatic dismissal of pre-trib rapture as invented by some Jesuit or crazy Scottish girl late in history. Also in Ephraem, it appears that the rapture or removal of the saints is an event distinguished from Christ's return to destroy the Antichrist.
It may be that the Shepherd of Hermas is the most ancient (readily available) document which indicates that the Church is not on earth during the tribulation. But after the New Testament, the first document I know of that speaks of a pre-tribulation rapture/removal is a document attributed to one Ephraem (possibly in collaboration with one Isidor of Seville?), a document of disputed date, but dated IV-VIII AD. The Title is (In English) On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World A Sermon.
I note that these documents were not made part of the Canon of Scripture because of their errors.
The early church was fraught with heresies.
Re: This Thread is to Discuss EARLIEST REF TO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE/REMOVAL
The doctrine was never held by Christians until about 150 years ago.
This Thread is to Discuss EARLIEST REF TO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE/REMOVAL,
not to debate the timing of the Rapture -- there is no shortage of threads debating that topic.
Nevertheless, Hiz wants to address the timing itself here!
You mean Matthew, not Mattithyah -- no such book in the Bible!
Let us not set up a straw man to argue against. It is indeed obvious in the Olivet Discourse (where neither Rapture nor Church occur) that the Coming of Christ is after the trib. There is nothing inconsistent with a pre-trib rapture in that fact, so you prove nothing with this. The pre-trib rapture is a rapture of the Church, not Christ's return to earth to sort out the earth & establish His kingdom.
You cannot prove anything with this reference to "last trumpet." Do you really maintain that after the Rapture, all trumpets will be gathered & destroyed -- or put in museums -- and that trumpet tooting will never happen again in eternity? There is no necessity to maintain that "the last trumpet" of the Church age at the joyous call of the Church to go to Heaven, has anything to do whatsoever with the 7th trumpet of Revelation which is an announcement of judgment (the 7 Vials of Wrath).
But why don't you debate the fact or error of the Pre-Trib position on another thread, as this one was dedicated to a discussion of the History of the doctrine, and refutation of the theory that Pre-Trib Rapture was the invention of a Jesuit, a Scottish crazy girl, or Darby.
not to debate the timing of the Rapture -- there is no shortage of threads debating that topic.
Nevertheless, Hiz wants to address the timing itself here!
You mean Matthew, not Mattithyah -- no such book in the Bible!
Let us not set up a straw man to argue against. It is indeed obvious in the Olivet Discourse (where neither Rapture nor Church occur) that the Coming of Christ is after the trib. There is nothing inconsistent with a pre-trib rapture in that fact, so you prove nothing with this. The pre-trib rapture is a rapture of the Church, not Christ's return to earth to sort out the earth & establish His kingdom.
You cannot prove anything with this reference to "last trumpet." Do you really maintain that after the Rapture, all trumpets will be gathered & destroyed -- or put in museums -- and that trumpet tooting will never happen again in eternity? There is no necessity to maintain that "the last trumpet" of the Church age at the joyous call of the Church to go to Heaven, has anything to do whatsoever with the 7th trumpet of Revelation which is an announcement of judgment (the 7 Vials of Wrath).
But why don't you debate the fact or error of the Pre-Trib position on another thread, as this one was dedicated to a discussion of the History of the doctrine, and refutation of the theory that Pre-Trib Rapture was the invention of a Jesuit, a Scottish crazy girl, or Darby.
Q:
Section I
There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. . . .
Section II
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and
there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. . . .
Section I
There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. . . .
Section II
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and
there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. . . .
Re: A SYRIAC VERSION TOO LONG FOR ONE POST
I continue to hunt for a source of an apocalyptic or eschatological sermon attributed to Ephrem the Syrian. I came across this site that posts the below:
Ephrem the Syrian
The large corpus of Greek texts that go under the name of St Ephrem the Syrian have been greatly neglected by scholars. The only full editions are those published in the 18th century by
Thwaites, in Oxford [1709], and by
Assemani, largely based on Thwaites, in Rome [1743].
Mercati began a critical edition in 1915, but only one fascicle of the first volume ever appeared. In 1988 a corrected reprint, based on the two eighteenth century editions, together with a translation into Modern Greek, began to be published in Thessaloniki. It was brought to completion late in 1998 with the publication of the seventh, and final, volume. This final volume contains a number of texts that do appear in either of the 18th century editions.The whole is extremely useful, though it is not a critical, but rather a practical, edition.
Some of these texts seem to be translations of Syriac metrical homilies, but the majority of them are almost certainly original Greek works and most of these the product of Byzantine coenobitic monasticism. They are of different dates and by different authors.
A number of them are written in the metre called in Syriac the ‘metre of St Ephrem’, but do not appear to be translations. Some of them seem to have been known to St Romanos the Melodist in the sixth century and one large collection of fifty ‘Exhortations to the Monks of Egypt’ is mentioned by St Photios the Great [c.810-c.895] in his ‘Library’. . . .
These Greek writings attributed to St Ephrem have never been translated into English and so I hope on this page to begin to fill a yawning gap in the spiritual reading of English speaking Orthodox Christians.
I inserted space & emphasis into the quote.
[HR][/HR]
I continue to hunt for a source of an apocalyptic or eschatological sermon attributed to Ephrem the Syrian. I came across this site that posts the below:
Ephrem the Syrian
ASCETICAL AND OTHER WRITINGS
EXTANT ONLY IN GREEK
EXTANT ONLY IN GREEK
INTRODUCTORY NOTE
The ascetic writings in Greek attributed to St Ephrem the Syrian [† 373] are some of the basic texts of Orthodox monasticism. . . .The large corpus of Greek texts that go under the name of St Ephrem the Syrian have been greatly neglected by scholars. The only full editions are those published in the 18th century by
Thwaites, in Oxford [1709], and by
Assemani, largely based on Thwaites, in Rome [1743].
Mercati began a critical edition in 1915, but only one fascicle of the first volume ever appeared. In 1988 a corrected reprint, based on the two eighteenth century editions, together with a translation into Modern Greek, began to be published in Thessaloniki. It was brought to completion late in 1998 with the publication of the seventh, and final, volume. This final volume contains a number of texts that do appear in either of the 18th century editions.The whole is extremely useful, though it is not a critical, but rather a practical, edition.
Some of these texts seem to be translations of Syriac metrical homilies, but the majority of them are almost certainly original Greek works and most of these the product of Byzantine coenobitic monasticism. They are of different dates and by different authors.
A number of them are written in the metre called in Syriac the ‘metre of St Ephrem’, but do not appear to be translations. Some of them seem to have been known to St Romanos the Melodist in the sixth century and one large collection of fifty ‘Exhortations to the Monks of Egypt’ is mentioned by St Photios the Great [c.810-c.895] in his ‘Library’. . . .
These Greek writings attributed to St Ephrem have never been translated into English and so I hope on this page to begin to fill a yawning gap in the spiritual reading of English speaking Orthodox Christians.
I inserted space & emphasis into the quote.
[HR][/HR]
That exception removes imminency.
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. . . .
But if the coming of the Wicked One is imminent, and if the elect must be gathered before that happens, how much more imminent is the Rapture?
I am reminded that the Man of Sin is hindered (2 Th 2), which makes sense as hindered by the presence of the Holy Spirit in the Church. And that further reminds of how God's wrath on Sodom was hindered by Lot's presence -- Lot was removed first.
By Elin:
No, the imminence of the Advent of the Wicked one is not removed by any exception. We ought to understand what is imminent. Here we see that the advent of the Wicked one is imminent, as there is no prophesied event that must precede it.
"
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. . . ."
But if the coming of the Wicked One is imminent, and if the elect must be gathered before that happens, how much more imminent is the Rapture?
I am reminded that the Man of Sin is hindered (2 Th 2), which makes sense as hindered by the presence of the Holy Spirit in the Church. And that further reminds of how God's wrath on Sodom was hindered by Lot's presence -- Lot was removed first.
That exception removes imminency.
No, the imminence of the Advent of the Wicked one is not removed by any exception. We ought to understand what is imminent. Here we see that the advent of the Wicked one is imminent, as there is no prophesied event that must precede it.
"
We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. . . ."
But if the coming of the Wicked One is imminent, and if the elect must be gathered before that happens, how much more imminent is the Rapture?
I am reminded that the Man of Sin is hindered (2 Th 2), which makes sense as hindered by the presence of the Holy Spirit in the Church. And that further reminds of how God's wrath on Sodom was hindered by Lot's presence -- Lot was removed first.