OSAS true or false?
- Thread starter InSpiritInTruth
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Actaully, one of those that God gave to Him did fall away as per Jesus own words.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(Joh 17:9-12 KJV)
Those given to Jesus were first century Jews and according to Jesus none were lost but one. Yes, they can be lost
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(Joh 17:9-12 KJV)
Those given to Jesus were first century Jews and according to Jesus none were lost but one. Yes, they can be lost
The son of perdition speaks of the same as the "man of sin" Paul referred to, and was also symbolized in Judas. But this man of sin and son of perdition speaks of many.
It speaks of the same thing Jesus showed in the last state of man, as was first symbolized in Judas (one who broke bread at the Lords table) who also sold out the Truth for a pocket full of silver. Look at what Peter had to say about the “son of perdition.”
Peter goes on to quote scripture concerning Judas, (son of perdition) in the Psalms Acts 1:20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Now, in order to confirm my point about there being more than one “son of perdition” or son who goes into destruction, let’s look at the Psalms from where Peter was drawing this from.
In Psalm 69 we see this same language used in verse Psalm 69:25 “Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.” Notice the Psalm says “their” as in more than one. As a matter of fact, if you read the whole Psalm the Lord is speaking of many, like in verse 4 the Lord says “they that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head”. The Lord repeatedly uses the words “they their, them”, in the Psalm just as Paul also used the same language in 2 Thess 2:10-12 describing the man of sin, and son of perdition.
Now let’s confirm the same message in another Psalm which speaks of what Peter quoted in Psalm 109:8 “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.” Now that sounds more like what Peter was quoting from when he said in Acts 1:20 “Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take” Which does speak specifically about the single man Judas. (Which has already been fulfilled as Jesus noted in John 17:12.)
But let’s now look at that Psalm in the greater context of what is being said.
Psalm 109:1-13 109 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.[SUP]3 [/SUP]They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.[SUP]4 [/SUP]For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.[SUP]5 [/SUP]And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.[SUP]7 [/SUP]When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Let his days be few; and let another take his office.[SUP]9 [/SUP]Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.[SUP]10 [/SUP]Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.”
So though him was referring to the single man Judas in this Psalm, as both Jesus and Peter confirmed, I believe it is very clear that Paul was not talking about a single man yet to come, but rather a whole wicked generation who would fall away from following after the Truth in Christ, and also go into destruction.
It speaks of the same thing Jesus showed in the last state of man, as was first symbolized in Judas (one who broke bread at the Lords table) who also sold out the Truth for a pocket full of silver. Look at what Peter had to say about the “son of perdition.”
Peter goes on to quote scripture concerning Judas, (son of perdition) in the Psalms Acts 1:20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Now, in order to confirm my point about there being more than one “son of perdition” or son who goes into destruction, let’s look at the Psalms from where Peter was drawing this from.
In Psalm 69 we see this same language used in verse Psalm 69:25 “Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.” Notice the Psalm says “their” as in more than one. As a matter of fact, if you read the whole Psalm the Lord is speaking of many, like in verse 4 the Lord says “they that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head”. The Lord repeatedly uses the words “they their, them”, in the Psalm just as Paul also used the same language in 2 Thess 2:10-12 describing the man of sin, and son of perdition.
Now let’s confirm the same message in another Psalm which speaks of what Peter quoted in Psalm 109:8 “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.” Now that sounds more like what Peter was quoting from when he said in Acts 1:20 “Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take” Which does speak specifically about the single man Judas. (Which has already been fulfilled as Jesus noted in John 17:12.)
But let’s now look at that Psalm in the greater context of what is being said.
Psalm 109:1-13 109 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.[SUP]3 [/SUP]They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.[SUP]4 [/SUP]For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.[SUP]5 [/SUP]And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.[SUP]7 [/SUP]When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.[SUP]8 [/SUP]Let his days be few; and let another take his office.[SUP]9 [/SUP]Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.[SUP]10 [/SUP]Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.”
So though him was referring to the single man Judas in this Psalm, as both Jesus and Peter confirmed, I believe it is very clear that Paul was not talking about a single man yet to come, but rather a whole wicked generation who would fall away from following after the Truth in Christ, and also go into destruction.
Last edited:
As you approach this subject you must consider the essence of our salvation. We are saved because we believe. We believe that the blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient to atone for our sins. We believe that God the Father has accepted the blood of His Son Christ as full atonement for our sins.
We are told in Isaiah 53 that the Redeemer would come and suffer and that Jehovah God would be satisfied. We have the word of Jesus in Mark 10 where Jesus says He did not come to be ministered unto but to minister. To minister our salvation through His death. We have Jesus as our Intercessor Who is eternal and never requires rest from His intercession.
If we could lose our salvation then Jesus would have failed to keep His promises. If your salvation depends on you then you are in deep trouble because what you got isn't what you need.
Those who have been truly born again are like unto the caterpillar who becomes a new creature a butterfly. He can never go back to his former state. If he does not emerge from the pupa changed them he is not a butterfly for he never changed.
Salvation is a present possession that continues throughout eternity. We know we are saved because His Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are sealed and have the certain hope that comes from His presence in our sojourn here on earth.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We are told in Isaiah 53 that the Redeemer would come and suffer and that Jehovah God would be satisfied. We have the word of Jesus in Mark 10 where Jesus says He did not come to be ministered unto but to minister. To minister our salvation through His death. We have Jesus as our Intercessor Who is eternal and never requires rest from His intercession.
If we could lose our salvation then Jesus would have failed to keep His promises. If your salvation depends on you then you are in deep trouble because what you got isn't what you need.
Those who have been truly born again are like unto the caterpillar who becomes a new creature a butterfly. He can never go back to his former state. If he does not emerge from the pupa changed them he is not a butterfly for he never changed.
Salvation is a present possession that continues throughout eternity. We know we are saved because His Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are sealed and have the certain hope that comes from His presence in our sojourn here on earth.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
What if one quits believing?
1 Jn 2:25 "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."
Lk 18:30 "Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting."
One CONDITIONALLY possesses the promise of eternal life and can lose that promise due to faithlessness, quits believing.
1 Jn 2:25 "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life."
Lk 18:30 "Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting."
One CONDITIONALLY possesses the promise of eternal life and can lose that promise due to faithlessness, quits believing.
Most anti-Osas'ers I find are quite Arminian in their approach to sanctification completely ignoring the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer almost to the point where the Lord says to his children, "ok, I died for you but from here on out it is sink or swim".
Also God is not willing that any should perish, especially His children. Him, knowing the future, would take His child home before his child reached that place of no return. Ya, think?
Also God is not willing that any should perish, especially His children. Him, knowing the future, would take His child home before his child reached that place of no return. Ya, think?
It is very bad hermeneutics to take one passage and twist it of context, and make a doctrine out of it.
You our simply deny the essence of salvation, when you claim it is something WE control. God is sovereign in soteriology, anything else is blasphemy and degrades Christ and his sacrifice on the cross to little more than a religious effort we aspire to imitate or not!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works do that no one at boast." Eph. 2:8-9
You our simply deny the essence of salvation, when you claim it is something WE control. God is sovereign in soteriology, anything else is blasphemy and degrades Christ and his sacrifice on the cross to little more than a religious effort we aspire to imitate or not!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works do that no one at boast." Eph. 2:8-9
K
OSAS is a false doctrine while a person is still in the flesh, after the resurrection then OSAS is true as it is not until then that salvation/eternal life is in our physical presence.
1) To start those who believe that salvation/eternal life is a physical possession of ours right now misuse the original Greek.
a) pisteuó or pistis are both continuation words meaning to continue to believe and to have confidence or assurance.
b)echo means a mental possession or assurance that you will have something, in this case eternal life, not physical possession.
2) Next the thing is we can know this easily by what our Lord Jesus said, and if Paul confirmed it by the Holy Spirit working in Him;
Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
New International Version
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1) To start those who believe that salvation/eternal life is a physical possession of ours right now misuse the original Greek.
a) pisteuó or pistis are both continuation words meaning to continue to believe and to have confidence or assurance.
b)echo means a mental possession or assurance that you will have something, in this case eternal life, not physical possession.
2) Next the thing is we can know this easily by what our Lord Jesus said, and if Paul confirmed it by the Holy Spirit working in Him;
Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
New International Version
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
...as Eternal Securists do with Jn 10:28? Lifting it out of context and then when asked why God will not allow them to be plucked out of His hand, the Eternal securists then ADDS to the context that eternal security is why they will not be plucked out of God's hand when eternal security in not even in the text.
God does not force salvation or condemnation upon man so man does have a role in his salvation and if man does not keep his role he will fall away.
K
[h=1]Colossians 1:22-23[/h]22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Why are the branches that are in Christ broken off and burned?
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
We see the reason why in the branches of the natural olive tree that were taken away in Romans 11:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
So by not abiding in the Word and faith will result in a person being cut off from the vine (or tree). Just as Jesus said in John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
We see the reason why in the branches of the natural olive tree that were taken away in Romans 11:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."
So by not abiding in the Word and faith will result in a person being cut off from the vine (or tree). Just as Jesus said in John 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Cannot happen if one is truly born again. The change is complete and there is no going back. If you have not experienced it you cannot understand it.
God does not promise like man promises. There is no doubt in the promises of God. God does all that He promises. You cannot understand the faithfulness of God because you do not know God according to the bible.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
These two seem to bear witness to the same, like if you dont abide in Christ you become a "cast forth branch" and the Father takes them away right? But here it says men gather them
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
But here it seems even clearer, it is the LORD that is leading them forth with workers of iniquity
Psalm 125:5 As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, the LORD shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel.
Notice that?
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
But here it seems even clearer, it is the LORD that is leading them forth with workers of iniquity
Psalm 125:5 As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, the LORD shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel.
Notice that?
When you blend John 15 and Romans 11 together you are bound to arrive at an incorrect conclusion. Romans is speaking to a completely different subject.
Believers in John are pruned to bring forth fruit and more fruit for Gods glory. A branch that does not produce fruit is taken away because it is not in the vine. The vine produces the fruit and not the branch. The branch bears the fruit but it cannot produce the fruit.
romans is speaking of Israel and the Gentiles not individual believers.
John 15 if he abide not in the vine is clear that the man is not saved who is cast forth and withered.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Believers in John are pruned to bring forth fruit and more fruit for Gods glory. A branch that does not produce fruit is taken away because it is not in the vine. The vine produces the fruit and not the branch. The branch bears the fruit but it cannot produce the fruit.
romans is speaking of Israel and the Gentiles not individual believers.
John 15 if he abide not in the vine is clear that the man is not saved who is cast forth and withered.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you get the first half correct you will not struggle with the last half. You are not correct in your understanding of what Paul is teaching about working out your salvation. Ephesians 2:10 says that we are Christ's workmanship created unto good works. Perhaps that will help you to understand Philippians.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
[h=1]2 Thessalonians 1:1-12[/h][h=3]Greeting[/h]1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[h=3]God’s Final Judgment and Glory[/h]3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 3:24
Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[h=3]God’s Final Judgment and Glory[/h]3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 3:24
Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
They do apply to both Jew and Gentile. And the words of Jesus are clear in John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."
It is the individual branches that do not bear fruit "in Him" that he takes away and burns.
It is the individual branches that do not bear fruit "in Him" that he takes away and burns.
No verse says it is impossible for one to quit believing. One chooses to believe by free will and therefore can quit believing by that same free will. "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Heb 3:12. Why warn/admonish these Hebrew Christians about departing from God in unbelief if going back into unbelief cannot happen?
John calls eternal life a promise. A promise is something not yet realized for if it were realized it no longer is a promise but a reality. And everlasting life is the world to come, as Luke said, no in this present world.