OSAS true or false?

[kennethcadwell]

[h=1]Luke 15:21-24[/h]21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

( The son repented and confessed his wrong doings/sins. )


22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

( This shows that the son had salvation before he walked away, and then became lost with no salvation. Then because of his return, and repentence he now has salvation again. )

 

[crossnote]

No I am not reading to much into that passage.
A person can not be saved / have salvation if they do not have God's grace in their life. If you do not have God's grace you are still enmity to Him, separated by your unrepented and unconfessed sins. People don't like looking at though at try to count what God did as a common thing, which the bible warns about doing. If you count His grace and the blood sacrifice of our Lord as common things, then you disgrace what He did for us.
Which is what you do by saying Paul was not talking about salvation in Galatians, you are calling God's grace that they fell from as common and not the saving grace that it is.

Grace in your life? Is that some kind of infused righteousness? I know true Christians have the Holy Spirit in their lives, walkin by grace. We are sealed unto the the Day of redemption by His Spirit. Is this what you meant?

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Luke 15:21-24

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

( The son repented and confessed his wrong doings/sins. )


22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

( This shows that the son had salvation before he walked away, and then became lost with no salvation. Then because of his return, and repentence he now has salvation again. )

For this son of mine was dead and is alive again... did he stop being a son?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Come on man you are contradicting your self all over the place. You cannot be saved apart from grace. God gives grace in full measure to save the moment we ask Him to save us.

You romanist roots are showing all over your doctrine. I bet you have little boxes on the altar of your heart where you separate you sin into good sins, bad sins, and sins to confess and sins to not confess.

You do not understand grace, Gods grace as it presented in the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I did not contradict myself as I said that one can not be saved if they do not have God's grace.
Paul says clearly to the Galatians they have fallen from grace, meaning they no longer have His grace.

Galatians 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.



Lord Jesus Christ blood no longer covers their sins since they turned away from His grace, to go back to be justified by the mosaic laws.

 

[oldhermit]

For this son of mine was dead and is alive again... did he stop being a son?

No, he did not stop being a son but, as long as he remained separated from the father he was reckoned as dead.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Grace in your life? Is that some kind of infused righteousness? I know true Christians have the Holy Spirit in their lives, walkin by grace. We are sealed unto the the Day of redemption by His Spirit. Is this what you meant?

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

God's grace is what allows you to be saved, for it was by His grace that He sent His Son to die on the cross to give us remission of sins. You accept His grace by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, repenting and being baptized to receive that remission. If you turn around and walk away as the Galatians did, then His grace no longer applies to you as you have rejected Jesus and His sacrifice. You then have fallen from grace, no longer have salvation.

 

[SoulWeaver]

No, he did not stop being a son but, as long as he remained separated from the father he was reckoned as dead.

Agreed on that.
My point it his backsliding did not make him a bastard.
A sheep does not become a goat.
Only God knows whom is whom of these.

 

[kennethcadwell]

For this son of mine was dead and is alive again... did he stop being a son?

No he did not, but by keeping himself separated by what he wanted to do kept him in a lost state.
Only the act of coming back in repentance did he receive salvation/eternal life again. People don't like hearing this, but your actions do separate you from God. If you don't believe that, why were you separated from Him to begin with ? That's right if was because of your sinful deeds that made you enmity to God. The only way to be covered by His precious blood is through repentance and baptism to receive that remission of sins. ( Acts 2:38 )

 

[SoulWeaver]

That's not what I said kenneth, a person who sins deliberately has not been born again to begin with... and because people will always try to add to me what I never said I shall leave this thread right now.

 

[oldhermit]

Agreed on that.
My point it his backsliding did not make him a bastard.
A sheep does not become a goat.
Only God knows whom is whom of these.

It did make him separated from the father and it did make him dead. Yes, he is still a son but a lost son who, had he not returned, would have remained separated and dead. One lesson this parable teaches us is that God desires the fellowship of his children but he will to stoop to the sty to keep it.

 

[crossnote]

God's grace is what allows you to be saved, for it was by His grace that He sent His Son to die on the cross to give us remission of sins. You accept His grace by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, repenting and being baptized to receive that remission. If you turn around and walk away as the Galatians did, then His grace no longer applies to you as you have rejected Jesus and His sacrifice. You then have fallen from grace, no longer have salvation.

Again, clear evidence you bypass the work of the Holy Spirit. If He has not sealed and is abiding and sanctifying a person, then yaaa, that person will be lost no matter how much in his self effort he tries...because he was never saved in the first place.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Hebrews 6:4-6 was talking about those who had the Holy Spirit, and who had tasted of the heavenly gift but turned away from it. That is the sin that shall not be forgiven as Jesus said in Matthew 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Again, clear evidence you bypass the work of the Holy Spirit. If He has not sealed and is abiding and sanctifying a person, then yaaa, that person will be lost no matter how much in his self effort he tries...because he was never saved in the first place.

Sorry but I do not bypass the work of the Holy Spirit, for starters the Holy Spirit is given only to those who obey God.
Second those who turn away, and do not listen to the Holy Spirit's guidance has committed the unforgivable sin. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Acts 5:32

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[notuptome]

I did not contradict myself as I said that one can not be saved if they do not have God's grace.
Paul says clearly to the Galatians they have fallen from grace, meaning they no longer have His grace.

Galatians 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.



Lord Jesus Christ blood no longer covers their sins since they turned away from His grace, to go back to be justified by the mosaic laws.

You cannot have Gods grace and then turn away from Gods grace. Gods grace is not subject to mans will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[wolfwint]

Well, this topic is in deed difficult. I believe it. Because it is grace to be saved. On the other hand i suppose nobody will be in haven against his will. There are many scripures who semms to support anyhow both possibilities. Many great thinker could not come to a final solution. So i think we also will not. So for what this discussion is good? It will more seperate than unit the believers. Because no final answer will be find. This is my expierience so far.

 

[notuptome]

Sorry but I do not bypass the work of the Holy Spirit, for starters the Holy Spirit is given only to those who obey God.
Second those who turn away, and do not listen to the Holy Spirit's guidance has committed the unforgivable sin. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Your understanding of what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit consists of is incorrect according to what is written in the bible.

The Holy Spirit is not given on the basis of obedience. The Holy Spirit operates as the direct will of God. If obedience were the criteria then it would be the obedience of the Philippian jailer. Obey and believe God and Jesus Christ Whom He hath sent.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ISeeYou]

Isnt blaspheme against equal to a word against?

At least when you compare between them they seem consistent in the same (followed by an example)

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Mark 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

See what I mean? Its even contasted against blaspheming and speaking a word against anything other but when it come to Him no way.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Isnt blaspheme against equal to a word against?

At least when you compare between them they seem consistent in the same (followed by an example)

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Mark 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

See what I mean? Its even contasted against blaspheming and speaking a word against anything other but when it come to Him no way.

Good catch, God is Spirit, God's words are Spirit, and of course the Holy Ghost is Spirit.

 

[notuptome]

Isnt blaspheme against equal to a word against?

At least when you compare between them they seem consistent in the same (followed by an example)

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Mark 3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

See what I mean? Its even contasted against blaspheming and speaking a word against anything other but when it come to Him no way.

If what you are saying is attributing to Satan the workings of Gods Holy Spirit then yes that is unforgivable. It appears that only the very religious are capable of this kind of blaspheme. I do not see it being done out of ignorance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger