THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Hizikyah]

I never said the law is bad.
I've even quoted Rom 7:12 that the law is good, just and holy.

My point has always been about how we are to be determined as righteous.
Legalists always wrongly preach works of the law for this, and it's this that I dispute, quoting many scriptures to confirm it.

Regarding Rev 12:17, my reponse to you, which you thought was out left field, was that as you do NOT keep the law anyway then you yourself are condemned by the point you make on Rev 12:17.

It seems you know the works of all men? are you omni present? a single sin does not make one Lawless, not confessing that sin would...

So about following the Law, Is it possible for a human to seek obedience to Yahweh;s Law without trying to be justified by said obedience?

 

[Hizikyah]

How can you claim Messiah and reject what He says?

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

2 Timothy 3:5, "Having a form of holiness, but denying the authority of it--from such turn away!"

2Tim 3:5
having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away

What is godliness?
1Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
Godwas manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

1Tim 4:8
godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

And what is the power of godliness?
Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL OF CHRIST, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek

What about: "does not follow My words"

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[Mitspa]

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandments going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What do you think that proves? Read the clear evident words of the New Testament! The law has its purpose and we in Christ uphold that love alone fulfills what the law demanded...but we are not under the law and do not serve God by the written code of Moses....
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandments going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

It proves that you are still not understanding how or why the written law was done away with.
It was because man is weak, not the law. For the law could not make man change even though we had the clear cut ordinances in front of us, and the warnings of what would happen if you break them.
Now we have a more glorious way, and that is of the Holy Spirit that guides us and helps us keep the commandments of God. That is why it says to serve the newness of the Spirit, to let Him guide you in keeping them. Because you by yourself it is impossible, but with the Holy Spirit all things are possible.
Realize the difference between following a set of ordinances, and walking in His commands as everyday way of life.
You are still stuck on the written part of it, and can not look past that.
Let the Holy Spirit guide you, and you to would keep the 10 Commandments as well.
All those scriptures once again shows that in the life of a believer the 10 Commandments are upheld and not done away with.

 

[Mitspa]

It proves that you are still not understanding how or why the written law was done away with.
It was because man is weak, not the law. For the law could not make man change even though we had the clear cut ordinances in front of us, and the warnings of what would happen if you break them.
Now we have a more glorious way, and that is of the Holy Spirit that guides us and helps us keep the commandments of God. That is why it says to serve the newness of the Spirit, to let Him guide you in keeping them. Because you by yourself it is impossible, but with the Holy Spirit all things are possible.
Realize the difference between following a set of ordinances, and walking in His commands as everyday way of life.
You are still stuck on the written part of it, and can not look past that.
Let the Holy Spirit guide you, and you to would keep the 10 Commandments as well.
All those scriptures once again shows that in the life of a believer the 10 Commandments are upheld and not done away with.

What proves what? These scriptures are clear and evident for anyone who can read and believe the Word of God!

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandments going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[kennethcadwell]

As I said before, you have misused many scriptures in an attempt to prop up an error doctrine.

But consider the simplicity that is in Christ, 2Cor 11:3, that you have sadly been deceived away from.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved. This is the simplicity that is in Christ.

But the error doctrine you follow declares 2 different gospels depending on our circumstances.

1: For those with death bed salvation, such are truly blessed as they only need to obey Christ's commandment that we believe on him.

2: Those who live on as Christians must also do works of the law and whenever they fail this they must keep their sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions or else they will be unrighteous and condemned.

This latter 2nd gospel that you preach offers a precarious see-saw righteousness based on works of the law and keeping ones sin ledger perfectly balanced. Such a gospel is error and is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace. God says we cannot do this, Rom 11:6.

Well if you and Mitspa want to keep throwing out the 10 Commandments, and saying you don't have to obey them then you are the ones who is denying the simplicity that is in Christ. For nowhere in the NT does the 10 Commandments get tossed away as you two so constantly misuse scripture to say they have.
They were done away in the written form because man alone is weak and can not keep them, so man will always fail. Under the new covenant we have a better way, and that is the Holy Spirit who guides us and helps us to walk in His commandments. Strengthening us were we are weak, and keeping us from sin controlling our lives. If you say it is impossible to keep the 10 commandments with the Holy Spirit in us, then you deny and refuse His power and put limitations on Him.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What proves what? These scriptures are clear and evident for anyone who can read and believe the Word of God!

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandments going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ is the end of the written ordinances of the law, look beyond your blindness and let the Holy Spirit guide you in the truth. That the commandments are now written in your heart, and the Holy Spirit will guide you to keep them.
Man is weak and therefore it is impossible, but with Christ in your life nothing is impossible.

Please I pray to God, and beg you to stop putting limitations on God.

 

[Mitspa]

Christ is the end of the written ordinances of the law, look beyond your blindness and let the Holy Spirit guide you in the truth. That the commandments are now written in your heart, and the Holy Spirit will guide you to keep them.
Man is weak and therefore it is impossible, but with Christ in your life nothing is impossible.

Please I pray to God, and beg you to stop putting limitations on God.

Like I have said over and over its love alone that fulfills what the law demanded....And I thank you for your advice but I don't think you are in a position to instruct me or anyone else.

 

[ELECT]

Romans 1:29New King James Version (NKJV)

29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
Look at the things that Paul is linking with unrighteousness. Are these not things which go against the ten commandments, the moral law of God? How could the saying "under grace, not under the law" mean that we no longer need to keep the ten commandments, and yet breaking the ten commandments would be classed as unrighteousness? It just doesn't make sense

 

[Hizikyah]

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith--the salvation of your souls."

If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away in 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9. Unless of course telos means the goal.

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."

Yaaqob (James) 5:11, "Behold, we regard as blessed those who endure. You have heard of the patience of Iyyob, and have seen the ultimate result (telos) of Yahweh: that Yahweh is very compassionate and merciful."

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

 

[haz]

It seems you know the works of all men? are you omni present? a single sin does not make one Lawless,

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in ONE point, he is guilty of ALL.

not confessing that sin would...

Your precarious see-saw righteousness by works of the law is what we disagree on.

So about following the Law, Is it possible for a human to seek obedience to Yahweh;s Law without trying to be justified by said obedience?

I've heard many Legalists use this argument saying that they're merely just wanting to obey the law. But the reality is that they always preach condemnation for anyone who does not obey the law. It's this that I dispute.

 

[Mitspa]

Romans 1:29New King James Version (NKJV)

29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
Look at the things that Paul is linking with unrighteousness. Are these not things which go against the ten commandments, the moral law of God? How could the saying "under grace, not under the law" mean that we no longer need to keep the ten commandments, and yet breaking the ten commandments would be classed as unrighteousness? It just doesn't make sense

Yes the law condemns all as sinners...that's its purpose...and those who teach the law are the ones who break the law...

Ro 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.


Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

 

[ELECT]

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in ONE point, he is guilty of ALL.



Your precarious see-saw righteousness by works of the law is what we disagree on.



I've heard many Legalists use this argument saying that they're merely just wanting to obey the law. But the reality is that they always preach condemnation for anyone who does not obey the law. It's this that I dispute.

What does this mean did they break the law and ordinances ?
[h=1]Luke 1:5-6King James Version (KJV)[/h]5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

[Mitspa]

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in ONE point, he is guilty of ALL.



Your precarious see-saw righteousness by works of the law is what we disagree on.



I've heard many Legalists use this argument saying that they're merely just wanting to obey the law. But the reality is that they always preach condemnation for anyone who does not obey the law. It's this that I dispute.

Any "honest" person will admit they do not and cannot keep the law...these people are just not humble enough to be honest...that's why its written God gives grace to the humble and resist the proud.

 

[ELECT]

Yes the law condemns all as sinners...that's its purpose...and those who teach the law are the ones who break the law...

Ro 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.


Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Jesus died for the world yet why does He not pray for the world ?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Like I have said over and over its love alone that fulfills what the law demanded....And I thank you for your advice but I don't think you are in a position to instruct me or anyone else.

Well that is not your choice to make, as that is God's choice who He appoints where in the church.
I have tried my whole life growing up to try and pull away from this calling, He kept pulling me back and it took the chastising that put me at rock bottom 8 years ago before I woke up and accepted it. I wanted to get into prophecy studies and prophecy teaching, but the Holy Spirit would not let me. He kept making me study and learn the warnings that Paul gave to believers, and through that learned how the law is now established in our lives. Love does fulfill all, but like I said that fulfillment does not mean done away. It means fulfilled, as in lived in as part of your life and not ordinances.

If you say a person can not keep the 10 Commandments, even with the Holy Spirit in their life then you are putting limitations on God's ability.

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Mark 10:27
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Then Paul tells Timothy this about those who claim to be holy, but deny the power of the Holy Spirit working in them;

2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[Hizikyah]

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in ONE point, he is guilty of ALL.



Your precarious see-saw righteousness by works of the law is what we disagree on.



I've heard many Legalists use this argument saying that they're merely just wanting to obey the law. But the reality is that they always preach condemnation for anyone who does not obey the law. It's this that I dispute.

Pick and choose.... round and round we go, a single sin makes us guilty but a single sin does not make us Lawless

Originally Posted by Hizikyah
not confessing that sin would...


1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness


Seems to me not being subject is fatal error, not by my words, by His.....

So is "the condition of without law" actually one who seeks obedience to Yahwe's Law and confesses to Yah when he sins? or what is Lawlessness? Is it not being subject to Yah's Law?

 

[Mitspa]

Jesus died for the world yet why does He not pray for the world ?

What? do you find fault in Him? He came to the world to save it...the Father sent Him and His prayer was for those who would receive Him....just like the law still condemns the whole world that has not accepted His grace.

 

[haz]

What about: "does not follow My words"

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

What are the commandments of Jesus that Christians keep?
1John 3:23
Believe on Jesus
Love one another

Note the context within John 12:44-50
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

God's will is that we believe on Jesus and thus have everlasting life, John 6:40.

Jesus said that our works are to believe on him, John 6:29.

And the message in John 12 is the same as the 2 scriptures I quoted above.

But Legalists mix works of the law with this. Scriptures give many warnings against doing this, (Rom 11:6, James 3:11, Rev 3:15, Gal 3:1-3, 1Cor 6:15-18, etc).

 

[kennethcadwell]

Any "honest" person will admit they do not and cannot keep the law...these people are just not humble enough to be honest...that's why its written God gives grace to the humble and resist the proud.

Wrong we know that we ourselves can not keep the law, but we also know that the bible says that true believers who have the Holy Spirit residing within them. Nothing is impossible, for nothing is impossible to God......

Unless of course you as a man continue to put limitations on Him...............