HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE NT]?

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Hizikyah said:
Elin said:
Hizikyah said:
Do the people that disagree with me believe this passage?

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand,
take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

I just want to confirm I am understanding you.

So you agree that Paul's writing are hard to understand to those not fully learned in the word, and that a effect of
his writing being hard to understand causes some people to fall into Lawlessness*?

*" You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand,
take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people"
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Peter does not say Paul's writings cause lawlessness.
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So in that passage what is the CAUSE of "take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people"
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The cause of "take care" is the false teachers about whom Peter is warning (2:1), who

follow shameful ways and bring the truth into disrepute (2:2),
exploit others in their greed (2:3),
are bold and arrogant (2:10),
blaspheme and are like brute beasts (2:12),
have eyes full of adultery, are seducers of the unstable, experts in greed, an accursed brood (2:14)
have left the straight way for the wages of wickedness (2:15),
are springs without water, mists driven by a storm (2:17)
mouth empty, boastful words,
and appeal to the lustful desires of human nature to entice the new Christians (2:18), and
are slaves of depravity (2:19).

The lawless are the false teachers whose errors Peter warns them not to be carried away with.

Is it not that his writing are hard to understand and
people that are not learned in the entire word twsits Paul's words into Lawlessness?

Why would Paul's name even be mentioned?

So will you walk me through that passage step by step, line by line? I want to understand where you are coming from, and If you believe im wrong, then show me the way, please.
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Peter is not saying Paul's words are twisted into lawlessness.
In 3:16, Peter is saying that the "ignorant and unstable" distort Paul's words regarding the second coming (3:4).

In 3:17, Peter is summing up ("Therefore,") his warning against
the lawless false teachers (2:2-19)
who lead the young immature Christians (2:18) into lawlessness.
 
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Hizikyah said:
Im a grafted in Israylite, and I only read Scripture, I read it so throughly that when A Script comes up or a question, that I have to thin out my Sciptual response because people tell me I post too long. I believe He puts this on me. Now I KNOW I still have a tn to learn and I dont know EVERY Scripture off memory, but I am diligent, and I only seek Scripture, have never been a member of a church and very rarely listen to religious teachers, extra biblical shows, seminars, books, sermons, whatever, never do I bind that to myself, only the word of YHWH.
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But God has appointed teachers (1Co 12:29) for his people because we need them.
 
Well, I thought I was done until I went offline to pray ...

About Paul ...

2 Timothy - Paul's Last Letter before his martyrdom:

2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus
2Ti 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience...
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2Ti 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
2Ti 2:6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.


2Co 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.


1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.




1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, {whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person} for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 {For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles}
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.









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Hizikyah - could I, as a Friend in Christ, ask you to read Romans 8 slowly and praying that "the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

{Eph 1:18-23}





TIA & IN HIS LOVE!
~ Romans 8 ~
 
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Elin said:
Blameless does not mean sinless.
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Depends on the timing. When one has committed sin and has been forgiven through grace, they are now blameless. If that same person commits sin again and does not repent, is he blameless?
 
john832 said:
Depends on the timing. When one has committed sin and has been forgiven through grace, they are now blameless. If that same person commits sin again and does not repent, is he blameless?
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Then Paul was blameless.
 
Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Not Peter though LOL

(Ok, I couldnt resist)
 
ChristIsGod said:
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
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He is talking about the jews in that context, because there were some that said they were Jews but were not but did lie, and he is putting himself along with them, saying this (as if reasoning from their standpoint as Jews).

Because he starts out about what advantage is there in being a Jew (even as he is after the flesh also) but in revelation their lie is called out by Jesus Christ, and Paul moves in to show its inward (circumcision in the heart) by the Spirit (not after the flesh) by the hands of men).

Seee the connection in the lie and the Jew in those things?

At least seems very much so to me to be speaking that way
 
ISeeYou said:
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Not Peter though LOL

(Ok, I couldnt resist)
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Do you know why Peter was to be blamed here ???

For the longest time I though it was because Peter was one of the one's guilty of the false teaching that happened to the Galatians. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit He guided me in my study and showed me the truth. And that truth was that Paul was blaming Peter for letting false teachers come in and lead the Galatians away to a false doctrine of being justified by the mosaic law. Peter was not guilty of the false teaching, he was guilty for letting it happen and not checking on the Galatians to see if they were still walking properly !!!
 
Here you can see some comparisons with the lie

For example, take it from the top in Romans 2 (follow it through) to Romans 3 and compare what he is is speaking about (Jews as he himself was) and how he is speaking through through the lie (which he had just prior cleared up in relation to the same) and take that same wording and find it in revelation in accord, seems to fit.

Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In light of what he just said (above) in chapter 2 he asks into chapter 3 in respects to the same...

Saying,

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

He as a Jew is reasoning as a Jew might in respect to what advantage have they (given all that was said about Jews) and he adds,

"I speak like a man" (in verse 5) but he continues...

Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

See the Jews lie thing here?

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Which again seems to indicate what they understood concerning it which Paul says (in accordance with the context of his own Jewishness) which he adresses as through my lie

Because he wrote (just repeating here)

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

But in light of that, as Jesus speaks to Jews, he says here this,

Rev 3:9... which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie;

Okay but who is? Paul answers...

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly

And in the context of the same Paul says,

Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

See how it can show a connection, validate Jesus words (and Pauls) without making the apostle wrong? Where others approach the scripture seeking to find faultwith Paul what he says sometimes is hard to understand why he said something, but the more you look the more Paul makes sense.

But folks often want to know, "here and now" dont wait on anything and then just start building against him.

At least now adays anyway

Thats what I have been looking at though,
 
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ISeeYou said:
He is talking about the jews in that context, because there were some that said they were Jews but were not but did lie, and he is putting himself along with them, saying this (as if reasoning from their standpoint as Jews).

Because he starts out about what advantage is there in being a Jew (even as he is after the flesh also) but in revelation their lie is called out by Jesus Christ, and Paul moves in to show its inward (circumcision in the heart) by the Spirit (not after the flesh) by the hands of men).

Seee the connection in the lie and the Jew in those things?

At least seems very much so to me to be speaking that way
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Yes, Sis - I know .... I cut things short after that long post ...

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?


But I've yet to read anything of Paul that would deem him a 'sinner' - not even Phil 3:7-20.
I was just reading this before seeing your post ...

2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2Co 13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
2Co 13:3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
2Co 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
2Co 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
2Co 13:9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
2Co 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.
2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2Cor 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

2Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.




Romans 6 etc. etc. etc. - Paul preached 'perfection' & holiness and how could he, unless he had lived that life himself?
I believe that he said that he did, in the long post about him, earlier.


I don't believe that the latter part of Romans 7 was Paul speaking present tense after reading chpt 6 and 8 and all else that Paul had written.

I do love Phil 3:7-20 and seeing the diiferent Greek words for 'perfect' and their different definitions elsewhere.
I do think Paul was 'perfect' in the sense of Phil 3:15, lest he couldn't write that verse - nor these ...

1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible [crown].
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.





God Bless you!!
 
kennethcadwell said:
Do you know why Peter was to be blamed here ???

For the longest time I though it was because Peter was one of the one's guilty of the false teaching that happened to the Galatians. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit He guided me in my study and showed me the truth. And that truth was that Paul was blaming Peter for letting false teachers come in and lead the Galatians away to a false doctrine of being justified by the mosaic law. Peter was not guilty of the false teaching, he was guilty for letting it happen and not checking on the Galatians to see if they were still walking properly !!!
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I was using the word blame and razzing Elin, I wouldnt take me doing so very seriously
 
Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Well Mr Atwood, I hope you're happy now.
 
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