BEWARE!

[Gandalf]

First let me say I stand by my statement above 100%, no exceptions, no matter who they are. Also this is not a OSAS thread as suggested, but a defending the Truth thread.

So are you saved by Paul's words or by grace and a relationship with Jesus Christ?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

LOL so I guess you are saved by the grace of Paul then? no my friend, even without Paul you can still get to know Yeshua the Messiah and you will be ok...

One thing all parties involved in these arguments should remember is that Abba Father warns us not to add or take away from His Word.

I am saved by the grace of God through faith friend, and also anointed of His Holy Spirit. And yes the Father warns of those who will add to and take away from his words, that also includes the testimony of Jesus Christ that was in Paul by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

BDF=Bible Discussion Forum

Everyone who reads this:
I believe in helping others, not writing them off...or judging them, until discernment is needed, when all else fails.
Don't be fooled anyone, this thread is NOT and never was about Paul,..... it is a lame attempt to call out Hiz's character.
People were trying to help/guide him, in other threads.....this thread needs to be done with.

This thread is about protecting the Truth, and about not being deceived by those who claim to know the Truth in Christ but at the same they reject the testimony given to Paul by Christ. Also, I never mentioned Hiz by name in my OP, or his name in any of my posts. I gave an example of a post, but only because someone first inquired of me. But I did not come to my conclusions based on one single post or thread, but by reviewing several posts and comments made.

I stand by my conclusion, those who reject Paul, also reject Christ.

 

[ISeeYou]

1Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[Gandalf]

I am saved by the grace of God through faith friend, and also anointed of His Holy Spirit. And yes the Father warns of those who will add to and take away from his words, that also includes the testimony of Jesus Christ that was in Paul by the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him.

I couldn't agree with you more on this point but I am going to ask you something, do you think I need Paul's doctrines to be saved or can I only follow Yeshua and be saved?

 

[kaylagrl]

So this is what I dont get.Lets sum up both sides of the argument...

Side One...You cannot lose your salvation.They use the "no one can pluck you out of my hand" verse etc.So once you're saved you're always saved.

Side Two...You cannot lose your salvation but you can walk away from salvation by choice,free will.

Ok we all agree that murder is wrong,the Bible clearly says it's an offence you will go to hell for.So a "Christian" commits a murder.Side one would say "Well he was never really saved in the first place".And side two will say "he lost his salvation because he walked away from the Lord." Either side is actually saying the same thing.Either way the person is without salvation.Both sides believe you cant continue in sin and be saved.And here we have a whole tread condemning the other to hell for a difference in opinion.And then we wonder why we have atheists smh. Both sides need to grow up.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

So are you saved by Paul's words or by grace and a relationship with Jesus Christ?

If you reject the words of those who Jesus Christ sends in his name like Paul, you also reject Jesus Christ.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

1Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it notas the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Amen, and Amen again!

 

[ISeeYou]

Re: THIS THREAD IS ABOUT PAUL - NOT OSAS !

Exactly .... Throwing Paul under a bus seems to be getting lost with this OSAS debate again.

The OP and most posts are in opposition of coming against Paul and as ISeeYou has said - "throwing a GOD Chosen Apostle under a bus" as in getting us to believe that the writings of Paul are not to be taken seriously and I wonder where you all have been that don't realize that this is what has happened this week.

I've also seen this way of teaching on the internet for the 12 yrs that I've been on it. From Messianic Groups to Hebrew Roots Movement groups.

This is not the argument about OSAS - Kenneth and all - this is someone that is literally saying that Paul contradicts himself, is not to be trusted, and is posting in so many words that the Apostle Paul was a fraud.

If it were my dearest friend on earth - if I saw that I can't convince them otherwise - then I have to tell them that they've gone way too far and are in serious danger to defame an Apostle chosen by Christ - struck down on his way to Damascus and given charge to be the Apostle to the Gentiles and wrote almost 14 books of our N.T..
The Apostle that suffered more in the flesh then any of the others until he was finally killed in Rome.
And not only that - but as soon as you accuse any books of the Bible to be written in error - you've opened a door to those less learned to begin to think that the whole of God's Word is not to be taken seriously as it has errors in it.

Could we Please get off of the topic of OSAS and get to the topic that this is about --- it's about throwing Paul out of the N.T. and I don't care who the person is that does this - they are dangerously wrong to have done so and a danger to others that are trying to believe in the innerancy of the Scriptures and can put doubt in the young in Christ that the Bible as we have it is not Divinely Inspired.... so then where do they turn for TRUTH?

Paul was a special man in more ways than one could list in a post. Specially chosen to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles though he himself at one time was a Pharisee. The man had incredible wisdom and could speak to the Greeks as well as the Jews and Gentiles.

Throwing Paul out is throwing out the heart of the Gospel to the Gentiles and the same man that said that he would be willing to GO TO HELL for his fellow Israelites.

Stay on topic here - this is an important topic and "ISeeYou" even gave a link to one of the places that has thrown out Paul and why they have - because they've gone back under the law of Moses - not the law of Christ.

Frustrating when others don't read posts but comment anyway and take the thread far off topic.
I wouldn't care if it were a light topic - but this topic is another form of the Falling Away that Christ spoke about BY PAUL and Peter was rebuked for this topic BY PAUL.

The two extremes - far to one end of the spectrum is antinomianism and the other extreme is going back under the letter of the law and not understanding the spirit of the law that Christ brought and making it law to call God and Jesus by their Hebrew Names ... as if we can reach every nation on earth with differing languages and make them stop calling Jesus - Yesu in Africa, etc. etc.

Do you think that we should disregard Paul or not? Are you going to believe that Paul preached ERROR or not? That's what this thread's about --- and not the OSAS topic again.
And are you going to believe, that you're sinning if you don't use the Hebrew Names for God or Jesus or Christ?

Far extremes on this forum and this is just the opposite extreme of "do as thou wilt and you'll still be saved"... that even the Reformed Theology folks do not preach!

I thought colors would help, I find when you dont use them they rarely get heard but when you do use them folks complain, cant win to lose, but this is my second response to your post, I just thought I would rehighlight it differently since folks are making it about what its not about

 

[ISeeYou]

Amen, and Amen again!

Good morning to you, pulled an all nighter again (surprised?) LOL

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I couldn't agree with you more on this point but I am going to ask you something, do you think I need Paul's doctrines to be saved or can I only follow Yeshua and be saved?

That is not the point here, the point is rejecting the testimony given to Paul by Jesus Christ. To reject the one is also to reject the other.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Good morning to you, pulled an all nighter again (surprised?) LOL

Your a nut. I don't know how you do it, I need my sleep. lol

 

[Gandalf]

That is not the point here, the point is rejecting the testimony given to Paul by Jesus Christ. To reject the one is also to reject the other.

2Pet 3:15-16 (KJV) And account [that] the longsuffering of our Master [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (or twist), as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I have a question for you, let’s say I am a new Christian and I read the book of Peter and see this warning, I know I am not ready to understand brother Paul’s teachings and I study the whole Bible, build my relationship with Abba Father based on His word and before I can study Paul’s teachings I die an unfortunate death. Do you think I will be condemned to hell or is it possible that I can make heaven by the grace of God?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

So this is what I dont get.Lets sum up both sides of the argument...

Side One...You cannot lose your salvation.They use the "no one can pluck you out of my hand" verse etc.So once you're saved you're always saved.

Side Two...You cannot lose your salvation but you can walk away from salvation by choice,free will.

Ok we all agree that murder is wrong,the Bible clearly says it's an offence you will go to hell for.So a "Christian" commits a murder.Side one would say "Well he was never really saved in the first place".And side two will say "he lost his salvation because he walked away from the Lord." Either side is actually saying the same thing.Either way the person is without salvation.Both sides believe you cant continue in sin and be saved.And here we have a whole tread condemning the other to hell for a difference in opinion.And then we wonder why we have atheists smh. Both sides need to grow up.

This is a defending the Truth thread, and a defending my brother in Christ (Paul) thread, not an OSAS thread.

 

[Gandalf]

Beware! Non-Pauline Christians are no Christians at all. They look like a lamb on the outside, but they speak with the mouth of a Dragon.

They deny the grace of the gospel in Jesus Christ by promoting salvation through the works of the law. Beware, they are working in these forums.

From this it looks like you are telling me that I can't go to heaven without accepting Paul's teaching. If that is the case my salvation was in Paul and not in Yeshua and I disagree with that...

 

[ISeeYou]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

2Pet 3:15-16 (KJV) And account [that] the longsuffering of our Master [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest (or twist), as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I have a question for you, let’s say I am a new Christian and I read the book of Peter and see this warning, I know I am not ready to understand brother Paul’s teachings and I study the whole Bible, build my relationship with Abba Father based on His word and before I can study Paul’s teachings I die an unfortunate death. Do you think I will be condemned to hell or is it possible that I can make heaven by the grace of God?

You can study the Bible your whole life and not be born again of the Spirit, when you are born again then you'll understand not only Paul's words, but also Jesus' words.

 

[Hizikyah]

Since im clearly the un-named and at times named attack-eee here I will speak up front and quickly in this manner.

What I see is group of people who filter every words of Scripture through Paul's writings, the only one that is singled out as hard to understand, and to any who will not do the same they are "rejecting revealed truth" and (cue "scary voice") super duper evil!!!!!

In red letter bibles, Who's words are in red? Why are they in red?

SO the Messiah out of His own lips said this:

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

In the Revelation of Yahshua (Jesus) , THE FINAL WRITTEN MESSAGE TO MAN, He said this

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

and

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

None that disagree with me will touch these words of Messiah AND if they do they will ignore and/or changed the meaning.....

Prove me wrong show me that you accept the words of Messiah. (posting another verse that makes one think they can ignore those words is that person setting Scripture against Scripture....) and guess if people posts verse to nullify those 2 passages?

So prove me wrong, prove you do not reject the words of Messiah?

But I know it is way easier to pour all the accusation on me rather that read and accept Scripture you dont like.

(know I have been getting accused and attack here for a bit now, and not a single person has provided a single post of mine proving that I say the things im accused of.)

BTW Posting 2 Scriptures next to each other is not wrong. Posting what is written is not wrong. and asking about peoples views about what is written is not wrong.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

From this it looks like you are telling me that I can't go to heaven without accepting Paul's teaching. If that is the case my salvation was in Paul and not in Yeshua and I disagree with that...

Paul taught salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, to reject the words of Paul is to also reject the message of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. One who tries to say Paul's gospel was different from Jesus' gospel is trying portray Paul as a false teacher.

 

[Gandalf]

You can study the Bible your whole life and not be born again of the Spirit, when you are born again then you'll understand not only Paul's words, but also Jesus' words.

You didn't answer my question my friend do I need Paul to receive grace / salvation from Yeshua the Messiah?