P
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
So you have nothing but fleshly minded assumptions and no scripture to back it up. Just more gibberish to imply God can not save to the uttermost all who are called to Him through Christ and that a Christian can lose their salvation?
You brought it up and now you can't prove with scripture what you are implying here. As a matter of fact you can't even prove Ananias and his wife Sapphira were believers and part of the church spoken of in Acts 4. They were outsiders and unbelievers who lied to the Holy Spirit in Peter and to all the others who made up the church of believers spoken of in Acts 4. They were rejected by God unlike the church of believers spoken of in Acts 4:32-37. You assume your erroneous implications against God's ability to save completely all those who are drawn to him through Christ by reading out of context, bouncing back to Acts 4 where the scriptures speak of believers who had received the Spirit of truth not about con artists and liars like Ananias and Sapphira spoken of in Acts 5. They pretended to be believers because they wanted in on the material riches of the first church. You obviously cant prove they had the Spirit of truth in them either.
Look if you can't substantiate your erroneous suppositions that you attempt to imply here with scripture then maybe you should reconsider your position and consider teaching what the scriptures state plainly not what your fleshly mind assumes in opposition to truth.
Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Last edited:
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Jesus asked to test people all the time. God had satan test Jesus, knowing he would not sin. Does that mean God wasted his time?
You still ignore what Jesus said would be granted to ALL who believed him.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Then you can not use James to prove one can lose salvation. Because James said they had zero works. thats why their faith was dead.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Do you sin? then how can you be saved?
God does not see one sin greater than another. so why do you judge others, and not judge yourself? You just condemned yourself. and in fact said no man can be saved ever, you just condemned the whole world.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Are you sinless?
Then you disobay him.
Is anyone sinless? then everyone disobeys him.
So who can be saved?
Oh Wait, I know.. Those who are adopted as his sons obey him, (not perfectly) and are the ones he is talking about (the first obeyed him by receiving the gospel and not rejecting it)
Those who are not saved, can't obey him, not today, not ever. One must be born again to be able to obey him. Otherwise the things of God are foolishness to those who are not his.
You still have not answered how someone can have faith in someone, and NEVER OBEY or DO a thing the person he has faith in SAID!
it's the same way I cannot prove you have the holy spirit in you...and you are also assuming to support your view that they were not a part of the Church...the fact of the matter is God gives eternal salvation to those who who obey him...not the disobedient
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Colossians 3:9
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
what you are saying is God will kill an unbeliever for lying and not a believer who purposely lied to him ...disobeying him without remorse ....
what you are doing is creating a middle ground for believers who sin....but there is no middle ground in scripture....believers who sin are already drawn away from Christ...
James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jn 6:44,45 those that are drawn "cometh unto Me" verse 45 and if one quits the conditional coming to Christ he can be lost
1 Pet 1:5 one is kept by the power of God conditionally through faith. If one quits believing , casts off his faith he is no longer kept.
Acts 2:40; 1 Tim 4:16; 1 Pet 1:22; 2 Cor 7:1; 2 Tim 2:21 these is a sense in which man saves himself for man has a role in his own salvation and cannot be saved if he does not fulfill that role.
Heb 7:25 God saves all that conditionally come to Him, if one quits coming to Him he can be lost.
Eph 2:2 he is referred to as the prince of the power of the air not God. He wanted to be like the Most High God and he wants worship like God but he is not God. He is a fallen angel, fallen from the heights of glory to the depths of shame and disgrace.
1 Peter 5:8 He goes about as a lion seeking whom he may devour. The weak and the unaware may be devoured but it is only their earthly testimony that he may devour not their immortal soul. The soul once in the hand of Christ is safe for all of eternity.
I am concerned about you and I really hope that you are not being described in Jude 1:4
For the cause of Christ
Roger
There is free will, and there is also predestination. There is salvation, and there is also the possibility to fall away. Our free will you might as well call our flesh because we on our own only fall short of the glory of the Lord, and none are righteous, no not one. Predestination in the same hand is concerning the promises of the Lord, and the Lord is not slack concerning his promise. There has long been a debate over those who think it's not possible for our freewill to reject the Lord and fall away from the faith, but the bible says otherwise. It's obvious that we can fall away, No, no one can pluck us out of the hand of the Lord but we ourselves can harden our hearts and turn away.
Suppose one is saved, alright, suppose also that he backslides and falls back into the same ole pile of dung from which he was saved from, what then? Lets say he falls even further and now forsakes God, will God not forsake him also?
You know the answers, so I warn you; Take heed brothers and sisters, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. Yes, it's a daily thing, so hold fast to the confidence and rejoicing in the hope until the end.
Suppose one is saved, alright, suppose also that he backslides and falls back into the same ole pile of dung from which he was saved from, what then? Lets say he falls even further and now forsakes God, will God not forsake him also?
You know the answers, so I warn you; Take heed brothers and sisters, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. Yes, it's a daily thing, so hold fast to the confidence and rejoicing in the hope until the end.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I agree, but what does this have to do with people fearing losing salvation? The people you speak of have never seen salvation, have never had salvation, and as John says, has never known God (in an intimate father/child type of way)
also, this is what paul says about those who are adopted by God.
Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
One can not fear losing salvation, and have a sound mind. that is impossible. And a child goes to his father not fearing getting kicked out of his family (yes he may fear getting chastened) but he never has to fear losing his sonship.
why do you fear losing your sonship? if you claim your faith is in God?
Easy? I think we see in the world and in our own cities and even in here how hard it is. To humble ourselves at the point of the cross. and give everything to jesus, and not try to earn it by works. The works based gospel which states you can lose salvation is the gospel of every religion on earth.
And I find it amazing you ignored what Jesus said,
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Has he perfected forever those who are being grown by him, or did Paul lie?
Yeah, it is so easy that paul even at the end of his run realized he was still running the race that God still had a work to do in his life, because Christianity is not the easy life so many people want others to think it is..
What is hard is living every day, seeing how utterly sinful you are (which a true child of God will see, as Paul saw in romans 7). and thinking God will continue to save you. Because Satan is always in your head telling you how bad you are. and how God is so upset with you. Your flesh is always telling you how much your giving up. how all your friends are out having fun, and your not with them.
What is easy is living a life playing religion, and looking at yourself compared to sinners, and thinking you will be saved because of how good you are.
If I wanted the easy way, I would be a catholic.
Faith is the substance of things not seen, If you can see your perfection, you would stop having faith, because you have made it. Faith says it will be an ongoing process. which will not be completed until the day of Christ (our resurrection day)
You did not say that right,
He says HE NEVER KNEW THEM.
He did not say they were at one time adopted at his children. Lived a life pleasing to God, and fell away and were lost. For he would be lying, because at the time they were saved, he knew them, and they knew him.
He is talking to people trying to earn their salvation by their works, people like you and seabass and newbirth and others. WHo will stand in front of God and use all your good deeds to say you have earned your right. But never knew God. You practice sin, because you practice a false gospel. which is the most sinful thing God sees, and you practice sin, because the things of God are foolish to you. All you do is based on self preservation, self saving, and self puffing up. And not God working in you.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
If you think your sinless. your more lost than I thought.
Romans 8 2 does not say your freed from sin, it says your freed from the LAW of sin and DEATH caused by the law.
exactly, which is why I will never fear losing salvation, because all of those things are true.
Which is why it is said, who can withstand the chastening of God.
and why John said, a child born of God can not sin, because he is born of God.
so why do you fear losing salvation?
again. then why do you think you can lose salvation. when all you have posted is true.
why do you think God will condemn that which he saved?
They can not obey him, because their faith is dead, they have no faith.
you are contending they had no works to begin with...they did not continue in the work...it is hardly likely James would call one who had not repented and not been baptised and not received the HS a brother....
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Sorry, But I do not read a passage and try to insert my own view into it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Nothing in that passage said they ever had works, or that they stopped doing works. he is stating a hypothetical situation (which is true in many cases)
What gain will a person recieve if they CLAIM to have faith but HAS NEVER DONE ANY WORK?
He never even said they had faith, all he said, is that the SAY (claim) THEY HAVE FAITH.
He also never said these people who CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH were his brother. Thats your addition to the passage and topic in James.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The question makes no sense if eternal security were true and it were IMPOSSIBLE for them to leave Christ.
Christ asked "Will ye ALSO go away"...would they also - in like manner as those other disciples, also go away.
"These words were spoken sorrowfully and with deepest concern lest the Twelve themselves should be swept away by the great defection; nevertheless, the Lord would not force even them. Every man was free to leave if he chose to do so. God's plans always go forward, with or without men's cooperation. Even the Twelve were not indispensable; and, if they had defected, others would have been chosen, and the Master's work would have succeeded just the same. However, the Lord loved those men and earnestly desired their continuance with him."
Coffman Commentary
The apostles of their own free will became disciples and could of their one free will quit following Christ also.
Works are required to be saved and if one quits doing those works he will become lost.
Christians do sin and must repent and the prodigal sinned and repented returning to his father. Therefore salvation is conditional upon repentance. IF eternal security were true, the prodigal did not have to repent but continue to live in fornication with those harlots and still be saved.