Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

[InSpiritInTruth]

While you are both here discussing something I have question on Arabia (or which Arabia) has to do with Hagar answering to Jerusalem that now is as Paul points out.

Can any give me a hand there, I stink at Geography and math equally so if any can throw me a bone that would be great.

If they don't understand the allegory of the 2 Jerusalems,(one of this world, and one from heaven) then how can they see?

 

[ISeeYou]

Exodus 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

Duet 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

These I was looking at

 

[ISeeYou]

If they don't understand the allegory of the 2 Jerusalems,(one of this world, and one from heaven) then how can they see?

I overposted you, yeah I know there are two Jerusalems and there is that which is spiritually called one thing where our Lord was crucified (Sodom Egypt) and Hagar which is Mount Sinai in Arabia but something happens when discusing it.

Im just trying to get some extra clarity, been looking at these things and Im typically against asking questions of others but I get stuck on certain things and need to ask, hopefully my question is found in someone else as well.

Got to tighten some things up

 

[Socrates]

Is there even one "church" in America that might be considered the Harlot?

"You built yourself a high place at the top of every street and made your beauty abominable, and you spread your legs to every passer-by to multiply your harlotry" - Ezekiel 16:25 NAS

 

[keeth]

I really don't see how anyone could deny this? (above) and consider every country that has come under the rule of the RCC is cursed and its people are oppressed and its children raped.

Her abominations cause desolation wherever she is established.

The times also require this investigation. Throughout Europe, throughout

the world, there is a revival of the Papal system. True, this revival is not
to be considered as indicative of any very great triumphs. The best days of
Popery have been numbered. The notions which men now entertain of
popular liberty, and of the rights of conscience, the general intelligence that
prevails, the recorded history of Papal oppression, the circulation of the
Holy Scriptures, and above all, the word of God, all lead to the belief, that
no efforts of the crafty agents of this crafty system, can ever give it the
influence it has once exerted. “Tekel” is inscribed upon it; and some Cyrus
will, ere long, be raised up, who shall dry up its waters, break down its
gates of brass, and let oppressed humanity go free. No; it is not the
ultimate triumph of this system we fear; it is the harm it may do in its
death-struggle; it is the unnatural energies of its spasmodic dissolution,
that we dread.

In America, particularly, is this investigation important. In all the
countries over which it has triumphed, Popery, like the anaconda, has
wound around its folds of art, of cunning, of superstition and of power,
until, enclosing everything in its too friendly embraces, it has, with one
tremendous effort, crushed the nation to death. It sends forth its
missionaries; it gathers its schools and colleges; it erects its cathedrals and
builds its churches; it is patriotic, benevolent, charitable. Its alms and
offerings attract the vulgar, its austerities and penances convince the
sceptical. It is at first tolerated; then approved; next obeyed! But now
come the dread realities of the system, taxation, passive submission,
excommunications, interdicts, crusades, the inquisition, destruction. Yes,
Popery has well nigh destroyed every country in which it has been
predominant. The liberties and national prosperity of a people cannot coexist
with such a system.

Let then, Americans — Americans, who have never witnessed a Court of
Inquisition, or an Auto-da-fe, on their virgin soil; Americans, whose
national liberties are still fragrant with the blood of revolutionary
forefathers; Americans, whose proud eminence in the civilized world, gives
them more to lose than other nations; let Americans especially examine
this subject well. And if, in such an examination, the following pages shall
contribute but a mite to the discovery of the truth, the author will feel
himself more than compensated for the labor they have cost him.
(CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, by Samuel J. Cassels, PART 2
ANTICHRIST OR THE PAPACY PROVED TO BE THE
ANTICHRIST PREDICTED IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES,
INTRODUCTORY REMARKS, Pgs. 125&126)


Thusdoes the anomalous character of the Papacy prove it to be the
antitype of “the little horn.” This power is unlike all others; is
uncongenial with all others. It is a usurper, a supplanter. We can readily
conceive, how a spiritual power, either associated with the state, or
entirely independent of the state, may exist without discord or collision. If
the church be entirely distinct from the political institutions of a people,
there can of course be no disturbance, as there is no contact. And if a
church be established by law, as the operations of the religious and the
political systems are kept in distinct spheres, there may be but occasional
evils growing out of such union. But for a government that claims its
existence jure divino, that sets up a universal empire, that arrogates to
itself supremacy in all civil, as well as ecclesiastical matters — for a
government that considers itself infallible, and which requires absolute
submission in all its subjects — for such a government to exist in the midst
of other governments; in its very principles trampling upon their rights
and privileges; wielding both a temporal and a spiritual sword; punishing
offenders both in this world and the next — for such a government to exist
in harmony with other governments, is impossible, absolutely impossible.
The papal system can harmonize with no other, whether religious or
political. To the religious world, it exhibits one supreme pontiff of
Christendom, and requires for him universal obedience. To the political
world, it presents one great monarch, whose throne is above every throne,
and whose will is law throughout the globe. No the Papacy is a unit, and
presents the front of positive hostility to every thing that is not
consolidated in itself. It may not be able to carry out its principles and
wishes, but this is its nature. It is “diverse from all other governments; it is
the adversary of all other governments.(Chapter 3, Pgs. 155&156)






THE HISTORY OF PROTESTANTISM
Rev. James Aitken Wylie, LL.D
1808-1890


BOOK 1 CHAPTER 4: DEVELOPMENT OF THE PAPACY FROM GREGORY VII. TO BONIFACE VIII.


The grandeur which the Papacy now enjoyed, and the jurisdiction it wielded, have received dogmatic expression, and one or two selections will enable it to paint itself as it was seen in its noon. Pope Innocent III. affirmed "that the pontifical authority so much exceeded the royal power as the sun doth the moon."[5] Nor could he find words fitly to describe his own formidable functions, save those of Jehovah to his prophet Jeremiah: "See, I have set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down." "The Church my spouse," we find the same Pope saying, "is not married to me without bringing me something. She hath given me a dowry of a price beyond all price, the plenitude of spiritual things, and the extent of things temporal; [6] the greatness and abundance of both. She hath given me the miter in token of things spiritual, the crown in token of the temporal; the miter for the priesthood, and the crown for the kingdom; making me the lieutenant of him who hath written upon his vesture, and on his thigh, ‘the King of kings and the Lord of lords.’ I enjoy alone the plenitude of power, that others may say of me, next to God, ‘and out of his fullness have we received.’"[ 7] "We declare," , says Boniface VIII. (1294-1303), in his bull Unam Sanetam, "define, pronounce it to be necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." This subjection is declared in the bull to extend to all affairs. "One sword," says the Pope, "must be under another, and the temporal authority must be subject to the spiritual power; whence, if the earthly power go astray, it must be judged by the spiritual."[8] Such are a few of the "great words" which were heard to issue from the Vatican Mount, that new Sinai, which, like the old, encompassed by fiery terrors, had upreared itself in the midst of the astonished and affrighted nations of Christendom.

But the success of the Papacy, when closely examined, is not so surprising as it looks. It cannot be justly pronounced legitimate, or fairly won. Rome has ever been swimming with the tide. The evils and passions of society, which a true benefactress would have made it her business to cure -at least, to alleviate -Rome has studied rather to foster into strength, that she might be borne to power on the foul current which she herself had created. Amid battles, bloodshed, and confusion, has her path lain. The edicts of subservient Councils, the forgeries of hireling priests, the arms of craven monarchs, and the thunderbolts of excommunication have never been wanting to open her path. Exploits won by weapons of this sort are what her historians delight to chronicle. These are the victories that constitute her glory! And then, there remains yet another and great deduction from the apparent grandeur of her success, in that, after all, it is the success of only a few -a caste -the clergy. For although, during her early career, the Roman Church rendered certain important services to society -of which it will delight us to make mention in fitting place when she grew to maturity, and was able to develop her real genius, it was felt and acknowledged by all that her principles implied the ruin of all interests save her own, and that there was room in the world for none but herself. If her march, as shown in history down to the sixteenth century, is ever onwards, it is not less true that behind, on her path, lie the wrecks of nations, and the ashes of literature, of liberty, and of civilization.

Popery, then, we hold to be an after-growth of Paganism, whose deadly wound, dealt by the spiritual sword of Christianity, was healed. Its oracles had been silenced, its shrines demolished, and its gods consigned to oblivion; but the deep corruption of the human race, not yet cured by the promised effusion of the Spirit upon all flesh, revived it anew, and, under a Christian mask, reared other temples in its honour, built it another Pantheon, and replenished it with other gods, which, in fact, were but the ancient divinities under new names. All idolatries, in whatever age or country they have existed, are to be viewed but as successive developments of the one grand apostacy. That apostacy was commenced in Eden, and consummated at Rome. It had its rise in the plucking of the forbidden fruit; and it attained its acme in the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome,--Christ's Vicar on earth. The hope that he would "be as God," led man to commit the first sin; and that sin was perfected when the Pope "exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Popery is but the natural development of this great original transgression. It is just the early idolatries ripened and perfected. It is manifestly an enormous expansion of the same intensely malignant and fearfully destructive principle which these idolatries contained. The ancient Chaldean worshipping the sun,--the Greek deifying the powers of nature,--and the Roman exalting the race of primeval men into gods, are but varied manifestations of the same evil principle, namely, the utter alienation of the heart from God,--its proneness to hide itself amid the darkness of its own corrupt imaginations, and to become a god unto itself. That principle received the most fearful development which appears possible on earth, in the Mystery of Iniquity which came to be seated on the Seven Hills; for therein man deified himself, became God, nay, arrogated powers which lifted him high above God. Popery is the last, the most matured, the most subtle, the most skilfully contriven, and the most essentially diabolical form of idolatry which the world ever saw, or which, there is reason to believe, it ever will see. It is the ne plus ultra of man's wickedness, and the chef d'oeuvre of Satan's cunning and malignity. It is the greatest calamity, next to the Fall, which ever befell the human family. Farther away from God the world could not exist at all. The cement that holds society together, already greatly weakened, would be altogether destroyed, and the social fabric would instantly fall in ruins.(Book I. History of the Papacy. By Rev. J.A. Wylie, LL.D. Chapter I.
Origin of the Papacy.)

HISTORY OF​

THE REFORMATION OF​

THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY​

by J. H. Merle D’Aubigne​

PREFACE TO VOLUME THIRD​

The cause of truth recompenses those who embrace and defend it, and such has been the result with the nations who received the Reformation. In the eighteenth century, at the very moment when Rome thought to triumph by the Jesuits and the scaffold, the victory slipped from her grasp. Rome fell, like Naples, Portugal, and Spain, into inextricable difficulties; and at the same time two Protestant nations arose and began to exercise an influence over Europe that had hitherto belonged to the Roman catholic powers. England came forth victorious from those attacks of the French and Spaniards which the pope had so long been stirring up against her, and the Elector of Brandenburg, in spite of the wrath of Clement XI, encircled his head with a kingly crown. Since that time England has extended her dominion in every quarter of the globe, and Prussia has taken a new rank among the continental states, while a third power, Russia, also separated from Rome, has been growing up in her immense deserts. In this manner have evangelical principles exerted their influence over the countries that have embraced them, and righteousness hath exalted the nations (Proverbs 14:34). Let the evangelical nations be well assured that to Protestantism they are indebted for their greatness. From the moment they abandon the position that God has given them, and incline again towards Rome, they will lose their glory and their power. Rome is now endeavoring to win them over, employing flattery and threats by turns; she would, like Delilah, lull them to sleep upon her knees,.....but it would be to cut off their locks, that their adversaries might put out their eyes and bind them with fetters of brass.(paragraph 6)

 

[ISeeYou]

If they don't understand the allegory of the 2 Jerusalems,(one of this world, and one from heaven) then how can they see?

[video=youtube;NP0mQeLWCCo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0mQeLWCCo[/video]

Anybody home?

 

[PlainWord]

Sorry but what you have been taught is faulty, as Jerusalem by no means fits all the descriptions given in the bible for Babylon. People have tried to place Rome and New York ( or U.S. ) as Babylon to, but they do not fit all the descriptions either. The only place to this day and age that fits all the descriptions from the bible is Saudi Arabia, as it is the home to a dangerous false religion. And its capital Mecca means mother !!!

YES, YES, YES. You have it!!!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Which prophets were killed in Mecca?
Was Christ crucified in Mecca?

The Word tells us that the woman is the "great city" which killed the prophets and crucified Christ.
Muslims NEVER had it right, as they are simply a horn of the beast. To be the adulterous woman, they would have to have been married to the One. This leaves the options of only Israel or part of the Church as the adulterous woman and the "great city", however, the description of the woman and the city fit ONLY Jesrusalem.

Btw, I was not taught this until reading the JesusIsTheChrist posts about it, last night (not taking him as an authority, but seeing in the Word after reading his posts).
I had been taught that the RCC is the adulterous woman... but I now see that Rome did not kill the OT prophets, and was not the city in which Christ was crucified (although they had a hand in it, fitting them as the beast, or a horn of the beast).

Rev 17 tells us that she is "the great city".
Rev 11 tells us that the "great city" killed the prophets and was the place of Christ's crucifixion.

Unless there are multiple "the great city"s and multiple "women", the meaning is clear.

First the scriptures do not say what you mentioned, as ThomistColin told you what it actually said. And Revelation 11 does not say the great city is Jerusalem either. Revelation 11 has nothing to do with Babylon, as it is talking about the two prophets who stand outside the temple giving prophecy and are then killed by the antichrist.

The true scripture says about killing the prophets says, they were drunk off the blood of the saints and martyr's. And no other religion is more responsible then the death of the Jews then the Islamic religion that has its major home in Saudi Arabia. Babylon gets destroyed in the bible, and scriptures show Jerusalem protected all the way to when the Lord comes back so it can not be destroyed.

 

[CRC]

IDENTIFYING BABYLON THE GREAT
How do we know that the symbolic woman named Babylon the Great, described in the Bible book of Revelation, pictures all false religion? Consider the evidence:
● She could not be a literal woman because the imagery in Revelation is in the form of “signs,” or symbols.—Revelation 1:1.
● Babylon the Great sits on waters, which represent “peoples and crowds and nations.” (Revelation 17:1, 5, 15) A literal woman cannot do that. False religion, however, gets its support from its huge membership.
● This symbolic woman is a “great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” In other words, she is organized and has international influence.—Revelation 17:18.
● A spiritual harlot, Babylon the Great forms alliances with “the kings of the earth.” Moreover, these mourn her destruction. (Revelation 17:1, 2; 18:9) So she cannot be a political entity.
● The commercial leaders also mourn her destruction. (Revelation 18:15) Hence, she cannot be a secular commercial power.
● The Bible describes the blending of the worship of God with a love for the world as spiritual adultery. (James 4:4) Babylon the Great fits that profile. Also, she promotes spiritism, a religious practice.—Revelation 18:23.
● The ancient city of Babylon, after which Babylon the Great is named, was a profoundly religious city.—Isaiah 47:1, 12, 13; Jeremiah 50:1, 2, 38.
Thus, we can say with confidence that Babylon the Great pictures the combined false religions of the world.

 

[keeth]

No, they had it wrong. As with many today, they made the fatal mistake of CONFLATING the "woman" who sits upon "the beast" with "the beast". IOW, they are TWO DISTINCT ENTITIES. Anyhow, I fully agree with the Protestant Reformers (based upon scripture and recorded history and not solely upon anything which the Reformers believed) that the Papacy/the Vatican is "the beast", BUT SHE IS NOT THE "WOMAN". The "woman" is JERUSALEM and JERUSALEM alone and anybody who wants to see valid scriptural reasons why only JERUSALEM can be "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Revelation 17:5) can follow this link and then read the several consecutive posts that I made just yesterday on another thread on this very topic:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ome-signs-times-everywhere-6.html#post1857829

Babylon and the beast are separate entities. Yet the beast would not exist without Babylon the whore riding it. thus the confusion or apparent confounding of the two on many occasions. I cannot agree with Jerusalem being BABYLON THE GREAT.
The prophecies of the book of Revelation are concerning the new covenant Israel and Jerusalem, not the old covenant ones. They are universal and spiritual by nature, not local and literal as of the old covenant. That which pertained to the literal Jews and their local enemies, now pertains to the spiritual Israel of all who are in Christ, and those of this world who are in Lucifer. Thus the prophecies reach their global and universal end through spiritual entities, not literal ones. Rome represents and is ever increasingly encompassing all the false religions of this world, and the true Church of course represents and is ever increasingly encompassing all those truly in Christ within the same. The unification of fallen humanity being her ultimate goal as BABYLON THE GREAT, in defiance of God and His law of course.

Excerpts from​

ENCYCLICAL LETTER
CARITAS IN VERITATE
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
BENEDICT XVI
TO THE BISHOPS
PRIESTS AND DEACONS
MEN AND WOMEN RELIGIOUS
THE LAY FAITHFUL
AND ALL PEOPLE OF GOOD WILL
ON INTEGRAL HUMAN DEVELOPMENT
IN CHARITY AND TRUTH​

Man's earthly activity, when inspired and sustained by charity, contributes to the building of the universal city of God, which is the goal of the history of the human family. In an increasingly globalized society, the common good and the effort to obtain it cannot fail to assume the dimensions of the whole human family, that is to say, the community of peoples and nations, in such a way as to shape the earthly city in unity and peace, rendering it to some degree an anticipation and a prefiguration of the undivided city of God.


His was certainly a social teaching of great importance: he underlined the indispensable importance of the Gospel for building a society according to freedom and justice, in the ideal and historical perspective of a civilization animated by love. Paul VI clearly understood that the social question had become worldwide and he grasped the interconnection between the impetus towards the unification of humanity and the Christian ideal of a single family of peoples in solidarity and fraternity.

, but only on Christ, to whom every authentic vocation to integral human development must be directed. The Gospel is fundamental for development, because in the Gospel, Christ, “in the very revelation of the mystery of the Father and of his love, fully reveals humanity to itself”. Taught by her Lord, the Church examines the signs of the times and interprets them, offering the world “what she possesses as her characteristic attribute: a global vision of man and of the human race”

The truth of development consists in its completeness: if it does not involve the whole man and every man, it is not true development. This is the central message of Populorum Progressio, valid for today and for all time. Integral human development on the natural plane, as a response to a vocation from God the Creator, demands self-fulfilment in a “transcendent humanism which gives [to man] his greatest possible perfection: this is the highest goal of personal development”.

Hence, in the pursuit of development, there is a need for “the deep thought and reflection of wise men in search of a new humanism which will enable modern man to find himself anew”.

The importance of this goal is such as to demand our openness to understand it in depth and to mobilize ourselves at the level of the “heart”, so as to ensure that current economic and social processes evolve towards fully human outcomes.


The different aspects of the crisis, its solutions, and any new development that the future may bring, are increasingly interconnected, they imply one another, they require new efforts of holistic understanding and a new humanistic synthesis.


Lowering the level of protection accorded to the rights of workers, or abandoning mechanisms of wealth redistribution in order to increase the country's international competitiveness, hinder the achievement of lasting development.

But the social doctrine of the Church has unceasingly highlighted the importance ofdistributive justice and social justice for the market economy, not only because it belongs within a broader social and political context, but also because of the wider network of relations within which it operates.

36. Economic activity cannot solve all social problems through the simple application of commercial logic. This needs to be directed towards the pursuit of the common good, for which the political community in particular must also take responsibility. Therefore, it must be borne in mind that grave imbalances are produced when economic action, conceived merely as an engine for wealth creation, is detached from political action, conceived as a means for pursuing justice through redistribution.


37. The Church's social doctrine has always maintained that justice must be applied to every phase of economic activity, because this is always concerned with man and his needs. Locating resources, financing, production, consumption and all the other phases in the economic cycle inevitably have moral implications. Thus every economic decision has a moral consequence. The social sciences and the direction taken by the contemporary economy point to the same conclusion. Perhaps at one time it was conceivable that first the creation of wealth could be entrusted to the economy, and then the task of distributing it could be assigned to politics.


In the global era, the economy is influenced by competitive models tied to cultures that differ greatly among themselves. The different forms of economic enterprise to which they give rise find their main point of encounter in commutative justice. Economic life undoubtedly requires contracts, in order to regulate relations of exchange between goods of equivalent value. But it also needs just laws andforms of redistribution governed by politics, and what is more, it needs works redolent of the spirit of gift. The economy in the global era seems to privilege the former logic, that of contractual exchange, but directly or indirectly it also demonstrates its need for the other two: political logic, and the logic of the unconditional gift.


In this way he was applying on a global scale the insights and aspirations contained in Rerum Novarum, written when, as a result of the Industrial Revolution, the idea was first proposed — somewhat ahead of its time — that the civil order, for its self-regulation, also needed intervention from the State for purposes of redistribution. Not only is this vision threatened today by the way in which markets and societies are opening up, but it is evidently insufficient to satisfy the demands of a fully humane economy. What the Church's social doctrine has always sustained, on the basis of its vision of man and society, is corroborated today by the dynamics of globalization.


The articulation of political authority at the local, national and international levels is one of the best ways of giving direction to the process of economic globalization. It is also the way to ensure that it does not actually undermine the foundations of democracy.


The truth of globalization as a process and its fundamental ethical criterion are given by the unity of the human family and its development towards what is good. Hence a sustained commitment is needed so as to promote a person-based and community-oriented cultural process of world-wide integration that is open to transcendence.

Blind opposition would be a mistaken and prejudiced attitude, incapable of recognizing the positive aspects of the process, with the consequent risk of missing the chance to take advantage of its many opportunities for development. The processes of globalization, suitably understood and directed, open up the unprecedented possibility of large-scale redistribution of wealth on a world-wide scale; if badly directed, however, they can lead to an increase in poverty and inequality, and could even trigger a global crisis. It is necessary to correct the malfunctions, some of them serious, that cause new divisions between peoples and within peoples, and also to ensure that the redistribution of wealth does not come about through the redistribution or increase of poverty: a real danger if the present situation were to be badly managed.

The world-wide diffusion of forms of prosperity should not therefore be held up by projects that are self-centred, protectionist or at the service of private interests. Indeed the involvement of emerging or developing countries allows us to manage the crisis better today. The transition inherent in the process of globalization presents great difficulties and dangers that can only be overcome if we are able to appropriate the underlying anthropological and ethical spirit that drives globalization towards the humanizing goal of solidarity. Unfortunately this spirit is often overwhelmed or suppressed by ethical and cultural considerations of an individualistic and utilitarian nature. Globalization is a multifaceted and complex phenomenon which must be grasped in the diversity and unity of all its different dimensions, including the theological dimension. In this way it will be possible to experience and to steer the globalization of humanity in relational terms, in terms of communion and the sharing of goods.


The link consists in this: individual rights, when detached from a framework of duties which grants them their full meaning, can run wild, leading to an escalation of demands which is effectively unlimited and indiscriminate. An overemphasis on rights leads to a disregard for duties.


What is also needed, though, is a worldwide redistribution of energy resources, so that countries lacking those resources can have access to them.

Since the development of persons and peoples is at stake, this discernment will have to take account of the need for emancipation and inclusivity, in the context of a truly universal human community. “The whole man and all men” is also the criterion for evaluating cultures and religions. Christianity, the religion of the “God who has a human face”, contains this very criterion within itself.

56. The Christian religion and other religions can offer their contribution to development only if God has a place in the public realm, specifically in regard to its cultural, social, economic, and particularly its political dimensions. The Church's social doctrine came into being in order to claim “citizenship status” for the Christian religion.

The exclusion of religion from the public square — and, at the other extreme, religious fundamentalism — hinders an encounter between persons and their collaboration for the progress of humanity. Public life is sapped of its motivation and politics takes on a domineering and aggressive character.

Globalization certainly requires authority, insofar as it poses the problem of a global common good that needs to be pursued.

64. While reflecting on the theme of work, it is appropriate to recall how important it is that labour unions — which have always been encouraged and supported by the Church — should be open to the new perspectives that are emerging in the world of work.

67. In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth. One also senses the urgent need to find innovative ways of implementing the principle of the responsibility to protectand of giving poorer nations an effective voice in shared decision-making. This seems necessary in order to arrive at a political, juridical and economic order which can increase and give direction to international cooperation for the development of all peoples in solidarity. To manage the global economy; to revive economies hit by the crisis; to avoid any deterioration of the present crisis and the greater imbalances that would result; to bring about integral and timely disarmament, food security and peace; to guarantee the protection of the environment and to regulate migration: for all this, there is urgent need of a true world political authority,

Furthermore, such an authority would need to be universally recognized and to be vested with the effective power to ensure security for all, regard for justice, and respect for rights. Obviously it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties, and also with the coordinated measures adopted in various international forums. Without this, despite the great progress accomplished in various sectors, international law would risk being conditioned by the balance of power among the strongest nations.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Which prophets were killed in Mecca?
Was Christ crucified in Mecca?

The Word tells us that the woman is the "great city" which killed the prophets and crucified Christ.
Muslims NEVER had it right, as they are simply a horn of the beast. To be the adulterous woman, they would have to have been married to the One. This leaves the options of only Israel or part of the Church as the adulterous woman and the "great city", however, the description of the woman and the city fit ONLY Jesrusalem.

Btw, I was not taught this until reading the JesusIsTheChrist posts about it, last night (not taking him as an authority, but seeing in the Word after reading his posts).
I had been taught that the RCC is the adulterous woman... but I now see that Rome did not kill the OT prophets, and was not the city in which Christ was crucified (although they had a hand in it, fitting them as the beast, or a horn of the beast).

Rev 17 tells us that she is "the great city".
Rev 11 tells us that the "great city" killed the prophets and was the place of Christ's crucifixion.

Unless there are multiple "the great city"s and multiple "women", the meaning is clear.

You should be "sorry", but not on behalf of anything which I have written, but rather for your own erroneous posts. I cannot help but notice not a single scriptural citation in your attempted refutation of what I've shared and I think that we both know why that is. Yes, contrary to what you just claimed, Jerusalem and Jerusalem alone fits every descriptor given in the Bible for "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" and Saudi Arabia is hardly the place where our Lord was crucified, friend. Seriously, follow the link that I provided and see for yourself before you spread any more error.

I have shown you evidence as to how the Islamic religion's main home is Mecca in Saudi Arabia, and they and those of their religion have killed way more Jews then the Jewish people have. Plus like I said the great city Mecca where Muslims from all around the world come to gather to worship their false religion, stands for mother. Hmmmm, mother of all harlots....
Then the bible says the antichrist destroys Babylon, well by biblical scriptures Jerusalem is still standing when the Lord returns. So it does not fit the bill, and the other dangerous thing you are doing is cursing an area where the bible in the words of God says to bless.....

 

[PlainWord]

How was the map labeled? Back when I subscribed to a politacal\religious answer to this topic... I had always seen the Bear references in Revelation as referring to Russia.

The Hebrews were looking for a political/religious leader Messiah. Not one that dealt with their own personal sins... This is another good reason to see the whore, not on a map but in a mirror.

Russia will definitely be involved as allies with Iran. Just as the Leopard includes Turkey, the Bear includes Russia.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I cannot agree with Jerusalem being BABYLON THE GREAT.

You can if you're willing to believe the scriptures:

Revelation chapter 17

[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
[6] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

First of all, in verse 3, we are introduced to TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES:

1. A woman.
2. A scarlet colored beast.

They are NOT one and the same, even though many people erroneously conflate the two. No, there is a "woman" and there is ALSO a "scarlet colored beast" upon which she sits. Although I won't discuss this on this particular thread, I'll tell you plainly that I'm firmly convinced by both scripture and recorded history that the "scarlet colored beast" is the Vatican/the Papacy, but that is another topic for another day. In this thread, I'm going to seek to prove to you and others the identity of the "woman".

Secondly, whoever this "woman" is, she is "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (Revelation 17:6). If we continue reading on to chapter 18 of the book of Revelation, then this "woman", "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Revelation 17:5), and her insatiable taste for blood is a little bit further described. Yes, we read:

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Revelation 18:24)

Yes, whoever this "woman" is, God holds her accountable not only for "the blood of the saints", "the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" and "the blood of prophets", but also for "the blood...of all that were slain upon the earth". If we're to believe scripture and to let the Bible interpret itself, then, again, there is only one city upon the face of the earth who all of this could possibly be referring to and that one city is JERUSALEM. We read:

"Nevertheless I must walk to-day and to-morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." (Luke 13:33)

Those are the recorded words of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, and He said that "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem". IT CANNOT BE! Therefore, when we read of how "in her was found the blood of prophets" (Rev. 18:24), this "her" must be JERUSALEM.

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:" (Acts 7:51-52)

Again, it was the Jews of Jerusalem who not only persecuted the prophets, but who also slew them. As such, when we read of how "in her was found the blood of the prophets" (Rev. 18:24), this "her" can only be referring to JERUSALEM.

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sin always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." (I Thessalonians 2:14-16)

Same scenario. Yes, once more, it is the Jews of Judaea or those of Jerusalem who have "both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets". Once more, when you read of how "in her was found the blood of the prophets" (Rev. 18:24), this "her" can only be referring to JERUSALEM.

Remember, now, that whoever this "woman" is, she was also held accountable by God for "the blood...of all that were slain upon the earth" (Rev. 18:24). Wow! I wouldn't want such an accusation leveled against me, would you? Well, again, there's only one city upon the face of the earth who is worthy of this charge and I'll let Jesus Christ tell you exactly which city that is:

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." (Matthew 23:34-39)

Again, those were the words of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, and He said that upon Jerusalem would "come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar". Yes, Jesus Christ cried, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets" and, again, "in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth" (Rev. 18:24) and this "her" or this "woman" is JERUSALEM and JERUSALEM alone.

Well, that's just an introduction. There are multiple ways to prove that the "woman" or "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" is JERUSALEM and this is but one of them.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I have shown you evidence as to how the Islamic religion's main home is Mecca in Saudi Arabia, and they and those of their religion have killed way more Jews then the Jewish people have. Plus like I said the great city Mecca where Muslims from all around the world come to gather to worship their false religion, stands for mother. Hmmmm, mother of all harlots....

You're only refuting your own position, friend. Yes, "THE MOTHER of all harlots" is just that..."THE MOTHER of all harlots". IOW, through her harlotries, she's "given birth", figuratively speaking, to all other "harlots". That's JERUSALEM, friend.

Then the bible says the antichrist destroys Babylon, well by biblical scriptures Jerusalem is still standing when the Lord returns. So it does not fit the bill...

It does fit the bill. You simply don't understand what "the bill" even is. Israel/Jerusalem was "chosen" to properly represent the True Israel, Jesus Christ, and, for the most part, they've miserably failed in doing so as their own scriptures describe. As such, this natural Israel which has been terribly misrepresenting the True Israel for the most part throughout her history will ultimately be replaced by the True Israel at Christ's second coming. After the Millennial Reign, there will also be a "new Jerusalem" which descends from heaven to earth. Gee, I cannot imagine why we might need a "NEW Jerusalem", can you? It's because the old Jerusalem will be done away.

...and the other dangerous thing you are doing is cursing an area where the bible in the words of God says to bless.....

No, friend, the dangerous thing that YOU are doing is butchering yet another scripture. Go ahead and cite it...I already know what you're referring to and I'll be happy to show you your error in regard to the same should you cite it publicly.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Revelation 17:1-6)

Somebody once said (I'm paraphrasing) that to attempt to understand the New Testament without having a foundational understanding of the Old Testament first is like trying to build a roof on a house without first building the house underneath it to support it. IOW, when we come to the book of Revelation (or any part of the New Testament, for that matter), that is not the place to begin our quest for truth, especially since there are multiple references to the Old Testament found throughout this New Testament book. These New Testament references as to how this "woman" is "arrayed" have deep significance, IF one understands what was written in the Old Testament and especially in regard to the high priest and how he was "arrayed". We read:

"And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons. And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty. And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise-hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work. It shall have the two shoulder-pieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together. And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen." (Exodus 28:1-8)

I'll stop here for now and then come back to the Old Testament description of the high priest's garments in a minute. The high priest's garments contained the following:

gold
blue
purple
scarlet
fine twined linen

Now, compare how the high priest was "arrayed" to how this "woman" was "arrayed" in the book of Revelation:

"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls..." (Revelation 17:4)

Okay.

Both the high priest and "the woman" share the following:

gold
purple
scarlet

Right now, it seems as if this "woman" is missing both "the blue" and "the linen", but "the linen" can be found in a further description of this "woman" in the next chapter of Revelation where we read:

"The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!" (Revelation 18:15-16)

Well, there's the "fine linen", but we're still missing "the blue"...and for good reason. Allow me to explain. In the Old Testament, there were many "types" given. IOW, certain things were "types" or "representations" of other things and the colors which we're presently examining were certainly numbered among such "types". In reference to the significance of "the blue" in scripture, we read:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a-whoring: That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God." (Numbers 15:37-40)

Through Moses, God instructed the children of Israel to put "a ribband of blue" or a twisted thread of blue upon the fringe of the border of their garments and this "ribband of blue" was to be a reminder unto them to "remember all the commandments of the LORD and do them" so that they would not "go a-whoring" after other gods. With such in mind, it is extremely significant that the only color which is missing from the "array" of this "woman" or "harlot" or WHORE in Revelation is "blue". IOW, now matter how "religiously arrayed" this "woman" is, her distinguishing feature is that she doesn't "keep the commandments of God" (which is exactly what the missing "blue" represents) and has therefore "gone a-whoring" (She is, after all, "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS"). Here's where it gets really interesting. This same exact "woman" is also described in Revelation chapter 12 and, more interestingly, this "woman" has "a remnant" which is also described. Yes, we read:

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:17)

Did you catch that? Even though most of those who comprise "the woman" have no "blue" in their "array" or attire in that they don't "keep the commandments of God", "the remnant" of this "woman" or the Jews who will be saved in the last days do have "blue" in their "array" or attire in that they "keep the commandments of God". Again, it is this "keeping of the commandments of God" which distinguishes "the remnant" from "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS".

Furthermore, this "woman" of Revelation chapter 17 is also contrasted with the Old Testament high priest in another manner. Yes, we read:

"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Revelation 17:5)

In stark contrast to what this "woman" has written upon her forehead, the Old Testament high priest bore the following inscription upon his own forehead:

"And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD. And thou shalt put it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the mitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be. And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD." (Exodus 28:36-38)

Whereas the high priest bore the inscription of "HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD" which was fastened to his mitre by "a blue lace" (another reference to keeping the commandments of God) and worn "always upon his forehead", this "woman" from Revelation chapter 17 bears the following inscription upon her forehead:

"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Revelation 17:5)

Anyhow, THIS is what is actually being described here and, once again, it all points back to JERUSALEM. Look, whoever this "woman" is, she is not only a "harlot" or a "whore", but she is "THE MOTHER of harlots". IOW, through her "harlotries" and "fornicators", she gave birth to other "harlots" and, again, the same could easily be said of JERUSALEM. Anyhow, there are many more indicators and descriptors throughout the book of Revelation which all point directly to JERUSALEM as well, so I've by no means covered all of them. In fact, I've just barely scratched the surface so far. I will add more as both God and time allows me to.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Whoever this "woman" or "harlot" is, she's also repeatedly described as being a "great city" in the book of Revelation. Here, then, is an exhaustive list of every place in the book of Revelation where the words "great city" appear:

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:3-8)

The very first reference to "the great city" in the book of Revelation plainly states that it is "where also our Lord was crucified". Where, then, was Jesus crucified? Pilate sentenced Jesus to be crucified while he was at the Praetorium (Mark 15:16) and there are two possible locations for the same and they are both in JERUSALEM:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate's_court

Praetorium site

Two possible praetorium sites in Jerusalem have been proposed: the Antonia Fortress and Herod's Palace.[1] Early pilgrims to Jerusalem generally identified the praetorium with the Antonia Fortress, where the traditional Way of the Cross begins. The archaeological evidence, which dates the fortress remnants to the 2nd century AD, as well as the tense situation requiring Pilate to be near the Second Temple as the center of Passover activity, support the Antonia Fortress location.

The actual crucifixion took place at Golgotha (Mark 15:22) which very well may have been right outside of Jerusalem's gate (Heb. 13:12). Before I move on, would anybody here (or elsewhere) like to claim that either "the Pope" or "the apostate church" is "THE GREAT CITY...WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED"?!? It's NONSENSE, folks. Continuing on in Revelation, we read:

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." (Revelation 14:8)

Here, "that great city" is referred to as "Babylon" and her fall is attributed to the fact that "she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication". Well, where have we read that before? Right here:

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Revelation 17:1-5)

Notice the comparisons between the two:

"Babylon...that great city" (Revelation 14:8)

"BABYLON THE GREAT" (Revelation 17:5)

Again:

"...she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Revelation 14:8)

"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication" (Revelation 17:2)

"...having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filtiness of her fornication" (Revelation 17:4)

IOW, "Babylon...that great city" and "BABYLON THE GREAT" are one and the same and they are both referring to JERUSALEM and to none other as I've already begun to document in my previous posts. This will become even more apparent in a moment. Incidentally, please remember that JERUSALEM was already "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11:8), so being referred to as "Babylon" or "BABYLON THE GREAT" falls right in line with the same and is what she is referred to "spiritually" here as well. Continuing on, we read:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. And the second poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea. And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. And the fifth angel pour out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of wine of the fierceness of his wrath." (Revelation 16:1-19)

Once more, we not only see that "the great city" and "great Babylon" are one and the same, but we also see how "they have shed the blood of saints and prophets" and this refers specifically to those of JERUSALEM as I previously documented. Again, Jesus said that "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33) and "it cannot be" means "IT CANNOT BE"! Again, those who "shed the blood of saints and prophets" (Revelation 16:6) were those of JERUSALEM and no place else. Incidentally, what we've just read describes the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath upon the earth and between vials number 6 and 7 being poured out, Jesus says:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." (Revelation 16:15)

IOW, Jesus hasn't come yet "as a thief in the night" and He's still heard instructing His saints to "watch". Yes, this is but one of multiple texts which disprove the alleged "pre-tribulation rapture" which is never coming and never promised in scripture. Anyhow, moving on:

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." (Revelation 17:18)

Again, this "woman" is the same exact "woman" from earlier on in this chapter or the same exact "woman" who is described in Revelation 17:1-5 and she is JERUSALEM. Although this "woman" or this "great city" is not presently "reigning over the kings of the earth", she will be in the rapidly approaching end times and I'll be happy to explain that as well. Continuing on:

"And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partaker of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine: and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by the sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a milstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Revelation 18:1-18)

Five times in this chapter we read of this "great city" and all five instances point directly to "Babylon" and there's simply no doubt as to who, exactly, "Babylon" is.

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her..." (Revelation 18:3)

"...in the cup which she that filled fill to her double." (Revelation 18:6)

"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her..." (Revelation 18:9)

Yep, compare these verses with those we've already covered in Revelation 14:8, 17:2 and 17:4 and you will see that they're all describing one and the same "great city" or one and the same "woman" and that "great city" or "woman" is JERUSALEM and JERUSALEM alone.

"And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!" (Revelation 18:16)

Yep, this is that same "great city" or that same "woman" whose "array" (Revelation 17:1-5) is missing one color in relation to the high priest of old and that one color is "blue" which speaks of the keeping of the commandments of God.

"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." (Revelation 18:20)

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and all that were slain upon the earth." (Revelation 18:24)

Again, there is only one possible "great city" which God could avenge the holy apostles and prophets of and only one "great city" which could possibly be held accountable for "the blood of prophets and of saints and all that were slain upon the earth" and that "great city" is JERUSALEM (Matthew 23:35) and JERUSALEM alone.

If you're not convinced by now, then this ought to seal the deal for you. Yes, we're given one other descriptor of this "great city" in the chapter which we just read, namely this:

"...and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies" (Revelation 18:3)

"The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her..." (Revelation 18:15)

"And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness!..." (Revelation 18:19)

Friends, we're given a precise list in this chapter of exactly what "these things" are by which the merchants of the earth were made rich by selling "these things" to the inhabitants of this "great city". Yes, the list can be found in verses 11 through 13 and if I took the time to do so (I don't have it available to me at the moment), then I could show you how that every one of "these things" on this list are directly related to either the building of a temple, the sacrifices which take place in a temple, the ointments used in a temple, the shewbread used in a temple, etc., etc., etc. Gee, I cannot imagine where the Bible tells us that a temple normally is located? It couldn't be in JERUSALEM, could it? You'd better believe that it could be and will be once more in the future.

Well, there is one last place in the book of Revelation where the words "great city" appear and this last reference ought to put the proverbial cherry on top of the proverbial cake:

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed unto me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God." (Revelation 21:10)

Yes, friends, there is another "great city" coming, "the holy Jerusalem" or the "new Jerusalem", which will one day descend from heaven to replace the old Jerusalem or the old "great city".

There you have it. Every verse in the book of Revelation which mentions that "great city" and every single reference speaks of JERUSALEM and of no other "great city". As such, I'd advise you all to discard any teachings which assert that this "great city" is anything else but JERUSALEM.

Hopefully, you'll all prayerfully consider these things before God...even if they fly directly in the face of your presently held beliefs or certain teachings or doctrines of your church or denomination.

 

[GrandHoboMaster]

The beast is a country (big and powerful) out of which global statehood of antichrist will be risen = it is the motherland of all the beasts Antichrist and False prophet.

The Harlot (sitting upon the beast) is a Church (woman=church) and the Great City - capital of the beast-super-country (upon which blasphemous names written).

Abominations is the perversion when a true church becomes a tool of Antichrist.

Revelation under word the beast explains not only the pair (of Antichrist and False prophet) but also their blasphemous motherland = country-beast which openly blasphemed God.

With all respect to christians from USA, their country is not the Beast and New-York city is not the New Babylon. (Cause neither blasphemous atheism ever had been US state idiology nor New-York city ever was a residence of the traditional church).

Who is the Babylon = motherland of the Antichrist and False prophet is obvious.

Funny, the both two witnesses also will be of the same origin.

And we will see it openly when the various miracles (predicted in Revelation) will start to be implemented publicly (crushing in dust the scientific worlview - modern global superreligion)

 

[ISeeYou]

But then there is this one,

Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

So Im still stuck, what Arabia, anyone know?

Or should I just open another thread?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Which prophets were killed in Mecca?
Was Christ crucified in Mecca?

The Word tells us that the woman is the "great city" which killed the prophets and crucified Christ.
Muslims NEVER had it right, as they are simply a horn of the beast. To be the adulterous woman, they would have to have been married to the One. This leaves the options of only Israel or part of the Church as the adulterous woman and the "great city", however, the description of the woman and the city fit ONLY Jesrusalem.

Btw, I was not taught this until reading the JesusIsTheChrist posts about it, last night (not taking him as an authority, but seeing in the Word after reading his posts).
I had been taught that the RCC is the adulterous woman... but I now see that Rome did not kill the OT prophets, and was not the city in which Christ was crucified (although they had a hand in it, fitting them as the beast, or a horn of the beast).

Rev 17 tells us that she is "the great city".
Rev 11 tells us that the "great city" killed the prophets and was the place of Christ's crucifixion.

Unless there are multiple "the great city"s and multiple "women", the meaning is clear.

You're only refuting your own position, friend. Yes, "THE MOTHER of all harlots" is just that..."THE MOTHER of all harlots". IOW, through her harlotries, she's "given birth", figuratively speaking, to all other "harlots". That's JERUSALEM, friend.


It does fit the bill. You simply don't understand what "the bill" even is. Israel/Jerusalem was "chosen" to properly represent the True Israel, Jesus Christ, and, for the most part, they've miserably failed in doing so as their own scriptures describe. As such, this natural Israel which has been terribly misrepresenting the True Israel for the most part throughout her history will ultimately be replaced by the True Israel at Christ's second coming. After the Millennial Reign, there will also be a "new Jerusalem" which descends from heaven to earth. Gee, I cannot imagine why we might need a "NEW Jerusalem", can you? It's because the old Jerusalem will be done away.


No, friend, the dangerous thing that YOU are doing is butchering yet another scripture. Go ahead and cite it...I already know what you're referring to and I'll be happy to show you your error in regard to the same should you cite it publicly.

No, you are reading to much into scripture..............

That verse in Revelation 17:6 where it says martyr's of Jesus, does not mean those who killed Jesus.
Martyr's of Jesus means those who were killed in His name. This goes with everybody who was ever killed for following the Lord. Guess what Islam has done that more then any other religion.
And the bible says the Jews when the Lord comes again will recognize their fault in not believing Him to be the Messiah, and will then turn to believe in Him. Jerusalem still stands when the Lord comes back, and is not replaced with the new Jerusalem at this time. The New Jerusalem does not come tell after the Lords 1,000 year reign, and nobody is getting rich off of imports from Jerusalem. So there is another description that does not fit the bill of Jerusalem.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If they don't understand the allegory of the 2 Jerusalems,(one of this world, and one from heaven) then how can they see?

Yes there is two Jerusalem's, but the physical one we have now in the actually place on earth will exist all the way up to the time the Lord comes back, and even during His 1,000 years reign. The New Jerusalem that comes down from heeaven does not come down tell after all things have been fulfilled.
Those who place Jerusalem as Babylon are gravely mistaken and headed down a dangerous road, as that would be a form of cursing them. And the bible says clearly those who curse them will be cursed, but those who bless them will be blessed.
To say Jerusalem is Babylon goes against the bible teachings, and all the descriptions for Babylon. As the bible says Babylon is destroyed by the antichrist, and another talks about other countries getting rich off of Babylon. Nobody is getting rich off of Jerusalem..............