Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

[Jason0047]

Then the people of Israel traveled to the plains of Moab and camped east of the Jordan River, across from Jericho. Balak son of Zippor, the Moabite king, had seen everything the Israelites did to the Amorites. And when the people of Moab saw how many Israelites there were, they were terrified.

The king of Moab said to the elders of Midian,
“This mob will devour everything in sight, like an ox devours grass in the field!”

Here we see Balaak is afraid of a certain people group that might conquer him.

So Balak, king of Moab, sent messengers to call Balaam son of Beor, who was living in his native land of Pethor near the Euphrates River.

His message said:
“Look, a vast horde of people has arrived from Egypt. They cover the face of the earth and are threatening me. Please come and curse these people for me because they are too powerful for me. Then perhaps I will be able to conquer them and drive them from the land. I know that blessings fall on any people you bless, and curses fall on people you curse.”

Balaak knows that if he can get a prophet of God to curse this people (that might attack him) they will not prosper. For Balaak knows that whoever this prophet will bless, they will be blessed and whomever he curses he will be cursed.

Balak’s messengers, who were elders of Moab and Midian, set out with money to pay Balaam to place a curse upon Israel. They went to Balaam and delivered Balak’s message to him.

Notice here how Balaak sent money to pay Balaam. There was no asking of a fee by Balaam.

“Stay here overnight,”

Balaam said.
“In the morning I will tell you whatever the LORD directs me to say.”

Balaam here is inquiring of the Lord. Not some false god. He is real prophet of God.

So the officials from Moab stayed there with Balaam.

That night God came to Balaam and asked him,
“Who are these men visiting you?”

God asks Balaam who these men are. It's not that God does not know the answer. He wants Balaam to merely to communicate with him in what he is doing personally.

Balaam said to God,
“Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab, has sent me this message: ‘Look, a vast horde of people has arrived from Egypt, and they cover the face of the earth. Come and curse these people for me. Then perhaps I will be able to stand up to them and drive them from the land.’”

But God told Balaam,
“Do not go with them. You are not to curse these people, for they have been blessed!”

God clearly says to Balaam to not go with them.

The next morning Balaam got up and told Balak’s officials,
“Go on home! The LORD will not let me go with you.”

So the Moabite officials returned to King Balak and reported,
“Balaam refused to come with us.”

Here we see Balaam obeying the Lord because he refused to go with them.

Then Balak tried again. This time he sent a larger number of even more distinguished officials than those he had sent the first time.

They went to Balaam and delivered this message to him:
“This is what Balak son of Zippor says: Please don’t let anything stop you from coming to help me. I will pay you very well and do whatever you tell me. Just come and curse these people for me!”

But Balaak was persistent and was not willing to give up in convincing Balaam.

But Balaam responded to Balak’s messengers,
“Even if Balak were to give me his palace filled with silver and gold, I would be powerless to do anything against the will of the LORD my God. But stay here one more night, and I will see if the LORD has anything else to say to me.”

Balaam tells them that he cannot go against God's will, but he places himself in temptation by allowing them to stay one more night and double check with the Lord again (Despite the Lord's clear decision on the matter).

God came to Balaam at night and said to him,
"If the men have come to call you, rise up and go with them; but only the word which I speak to you shall you do."

God gives Balaam one last warning. He says if he believes the men are calling him then go with them, but the Lord makes it clear that it is only the word of the Lord that He speaks to them that he should do.

So the next morning Balaam got up, saddled his donkey, and started off with the Moabite officials. But God was angry that Balaam was going, so he sent the angel of the LORD to stand in the road to block his way. As Balaam and two servants were riding along, Balaam’s donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand. The donkey bolted off the road into a field, but Balaam beat it and turned it back onto the road. Then the angel of the LORD stood at a place where the road narrowed between two vineyard walls. When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, it tried to squeeze by and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall. So Balaam beat the donkey again. Then the angel of the LORD moved farther down the road and stood in a place too narrow for the donkey to get by at all. This time when the donkey saw the angel, it lay down under Balaam. In a fit of rage Balaam beat the animal again with his staff.

Here we see Balaam rebel against God by choosing to go with them against the Lord's command not to go with them. Which then involves the Messenger of the Lord to stop him.


Numbers 22:1-27 NLT (New Living Translation).

Verse 20 - NASB (New American Standard Bible).

 

[1joseph]

John 3: 16-18 [paraphrased]


[Jesus said,] [SUP]16"[/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son [Jesus], that

whoever believes in him [Jesus] shall not perish but have eternal life.​

[SUP]17[/SUP]For God did not send his Son [Jesus] into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him [Jesus].

[SUP]18[/SUP]Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned..."





Did Jesus lie? No.

Do you believe in Jesus? _____

If you believe in Jesus you are not condemned!

If you are not condemned you will have eternal life with him!

STAND ON IT. IT IS A FIRM FOUNDATION.​

 

[BradC]

Again, as I said before, I will not share my personal life unless I feel God is directing me to share something specific that will give Him the glory.

Okay, so who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27

Good verses above, but what about (James 2:18, Mt 5:14-16, Ps 73:28, Jn 10:32, Acts 9:36, Rom 13:3, 1Tim 5:9,10,24,25, 2Tim 3:16,17, Titus 2:6-8, 14, )...

8 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

28 But is is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all thy works.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
10 well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

24 Some men’s sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

No, Balaam did not practice divination. Balaam was a prophet of God who talked with the Lord. Balaak sent men with money (i.e.. fees of divination). Nothing in the text says Balaam desired payment or that there was a fee of divination that he charged them. Yes, Balaam was later tempted, but he was not a false prophet from the get go. Okay, let's just read the text and see what it says (Note: I will provide a commentary on the text in my next post).

Then the people of Israel traveled to the plains of Moab and camped east of the Jordan River, across from Jericho. Balak son of Zippor, the Moabite king, had seen everything the Israelites did to the Amorites. And when the people of Moab saw how many Israelites there were, they were terrified.

The king of Moab said to the elders of Midian,
“This mob will devour everything in sight, like an ox devours grass in the field!”

So Balak, king of Moab, sent messengers to call Balaam son of Beor, who was living in his native land of Pethor near the Euphrates River.

His message said:
“Look, a vast horde of people has arrived from Egypt. They cover the face of the earth and are threatening me. Please come and curse these people for me because they are too powerful for me. Then perhaps I will be able to conquer them and drive them from the land. I know that blessings fall on any people you bless, and curses fall on people you curse.”
Balak’s messengers, who were elders of Moab and Midian, set out with money to pay Balaam to place a curse upon Israel.They went to Balaam and delivered Balak’s message to him.

“Stay here overnight,” Balaam said.
“In the morning I will tell you whatever the LORD directs me to say.”

So the officials from Moab stayed there with Balaam.

To begin with the Moabites were pagans - They went to Balaam because Balaam was into divination. No, Balaam did not ASK for fees in the text but come on - if your sending messengers and you are sending them to someone into divination then of course you would send them out with "fees for divination" - "taking with them the fee for divination" (NIV) Divination was a pagan parallel to prophesying, and so forbidden, Deut. 18:10, 14,15. It is seeking after the will of the gods, in an effort to learn their future action or divine blessing on some proposed future action. (Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible)

That night God came to Balaam and asked him,
“Who are these men visiting you?”

Balaam said to God,
“Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab, has sent me this message: ‘Look, a vast horde of people has arrived from Egypt, and they cover the face of the earth. Come and curse these people for me. Then perhaps I will be able to stand up to them and drive them from the land.’”

But God told Balaam,
“Do not go with them. You are not to curse these people, for they have been blessed!”

The next morning Balaam got up and told Balak’s officials,
“Go on home! The LORD will not let me go with you.”

So the Moabite officials returned to King Balak and reported,
“Balaam refused to come with us.”

Then Balak tried again. This time he sent a larger number of even more distinguished officials than those he had sent the first time.

They went to Balaam and delivered this message to him:
“This is what Balak son of Zippor says: Please don’t let anything stop you from coming to help me. I will pay you very well and do whatever you tell me. Just come and curse these people for me!”

But Balaam responded to Balak’s messengers,
“Even if Balak were to give me his palace filled with silver and gold, I would be powerless to do anything against the will of the LORD my God. But stay here one more night, and I will see if the LORD has anything else to say to me.”

God came to Balaam at night and said to him,

"If the men have come to call you, rise up and go with them; but only the word which I speak to you shall you do."

So the next morning Balaam got up, saddled his donkey, and started off with the Moabite officials. But God was angry that Balaam was going, so he sent the angel of the LORD to stand in the road to block his way. As Balaam and two servants were riding along, Balaam’s donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand. The donkey bolted off the road into a field, but Balaam beat it and turned it back onto the road. Then the angel of the LORD stood at a place where the road narrowed between two vineyard walls. When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, it tried to squeeze by and crushed Balaam’s foot against the wall. So Balaam beat the donkey again. Then the angel of the LORD moved farther down the road and stood in a place too narrow for the donkey to get by at all. This time when the donkey saw the angel, it lay down under Balaam. In a fit of rage Balaam beat the animal again with his staff.

Now, let's think for a minute and use common sense. Why would GOD send Balaam then be angry that Balaam was going?

Balaam replied to the angel of the LORD - "I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back." NOW - Balaam gets permission from the angel of the LORD to go with the men. Balaam then makes sacrifices - 7 altars, 7 bulls, 7 rams - NOW - he blesses Israel and does not curse them. Also why in 24:1 does it say: And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he went not as at other times to seek for enchantments . . (KJV) [Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he did not resort to divination as a other times, . . . .(NIV)] if he did not practice divination?

 

[Jason0047]

I believe that verse but I don't ignore the verses before and after verse 9. 1 John 1:8 - If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

I don't ignore the verses before and after either. They do not nullify the plain meaning in 1 John 1:9, though. What do you think 1 john 1:9 is saying? In other words, I want to clarify or explain each word and what that means as a whole within the verse? Why do think the other verses change the normal reading in 1 John 1:9? Give me a complete commentary on 1 John 1:9. Can your version of 1 John 1:9 be demonstrated elsewhere in Scripture?

Please take note I have no idea what you think 1 John 1:9 actually says. Please explain it to me.

As for 1 John 3:6, 9 about how those who are born again do not practice sin:

This is true. But God is not going to give up on someone who is struggling with a sin (and desiring to stop) who is confessing it. Practicing sin is living, and breathing that sin as a way of life with no actual remorse. 1 John 2:1 offers a solution for the brethren that do sin. They have an advocate named Jesus Christ. If they confess their sin to him, he is faithful and just to forgive them their sin. Stop. That's it. You don't need to add to the truth of that. That is what it means. I just restated what the verse said. In fact, David in Psalm 51 asks that God does not take His Holy Spirit away from him for the sins that he committed. He is sorrowful before God. This is a believer. So was Samson. A man who seems to have made some very poor decisions with God. Yet, he is mentioned among the heroes of faith.

As for 1 John 5:16 in relation to death:

There are believers who fell away from God and were not immediately killed physically. Judas, Balaam, and Saul, etc. Besides, everyone dies at different ages regardless if they are a believer or not.

 

[Jason0047]

To begin with the Moabites were pagans - They went to Balaam because Balaam was into divination. No, Balaam did not ASK for fees in the text but come on - if your sending messengers and you are sending them to someone into divination then of course you would send them out with "fees for divination" - "taking with them the fee for divination" (NIV) Divination was a pagan parallel to prophesying, and so forbidden, Deut. 18:10, 14,15. It is seeking after the will of the gods, in an effort to learn their future action or divine blessing on some proposed future action. (Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible)

Now, let's think for a minute and use common sense. Why would GOD send Balaam then be angry that Balaam was going?

Balaam replied to the angel of the LORD - "I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back." NOW - Balaam gets permission from the angel of the LORD to go with the men. Balaam then makes sacrifices - 7 altars, 7 bulls, 7 rams - NOW - he blesses Israel and does not curse them. Also why in 24:1 does it say: And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he went not as at other times to seek for enchantments . . (KJV) [Now when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he did not resort to divination as a other times, . . . .(NIV)] if he did not practice divination?

Seriously? You have to twist Numbers 22 to say something completely different in order to see something different than what I had shown. I was just repeating in my own words what the text plainly says. But believe what you will. No need to discuss it further.

 

[Jason0047]

Good verses above, but what about (James 2:18, Mt 5:14-16, Ps 73:28, Jn 10:32, Acts 9:36, Rom 13:3, 1Tim 5:9,10,24,25, 2Tim 3:16,17, Titus 2:6-8, 14, )...

8 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works. Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

28 But is is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all thy works.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and alms deeds which she did.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
10 well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

24 Some men’s sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

You have to look at both sets of verses and make them work together. One truth does not nullify another truth in the Bible. We merely yield to God's Spirit or work that He wants to do in us. In other words, I want you to show me how the verses I listed do not teach how God does the work within the Believer.

 

[Jason0047]

I don't ignore the verses before and after either. They do not nullify the plain meaning in 1 John 1:9, though. What do you think 1 john 1:9 is saying? In other words, I want to clarify or explain each word and what that means as a whole within the verse? Why do think the other verses change the normal reading in 1 John 1:9? Give me a complete commentary on 1 John 1:9. Can your version of 1 John 1:9 be demonstrated elsewhere in Scripture?

Please take note I have no idea what you think 1 John 1:9 actually says. Please explain it to me.

As for 1 John 3:6, 9 about how those who are born again do not practice sin:

This is true. But God is not going to give up on someone who is struggling with a sin (and desiring to stop) who is confessing it. Practicing sin is living, and breathing that sin as a way of life with no actual remorse. 1 John 2:1 offers a solution for the brethren that do sin. They have an advocate named Jesus Christ. If they confess their sin to him, he is faithful and just to forgive them their sin. Stop. That's it. You don't need to add to the truth of that. That is what it means. I just restated what the verse said. In fact, David in Psalm 51 asks that God does not take His Holy Spirit away from him for the sins that he committed. He is sorrowful before God. This is a believer. So was Samson. A man who seems to have made some very poor decisions with God. Yet, he is mentioned among the heroes of faith.

As for 1 John 5:16 in relation to death:

There are believers who fell away from God and were not immediately killed physically. Judas, Balaam, and Saul, etc. Besides, everyone dies at different ages regardless if they are a believer or not.

How exactly are you being cleansed by sin thru confessing in 1 John 1:9?

 

[Jason0047]

John 3: 16-18 [paraphrased]


[Jesus said,] [SUP]16"[/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son [Jesus], that

whoever believes in him [Jesus] shall not perish but have eternal life.​

[SUP]17[/SUP]For God did not send his Son [Jesus] into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him [Jesus].

[SUP]18[/SUP]Whoever believes in him [Jesus] is not condemned..."





Did Jesus lie? No.

Do you believe in Jesus? _____

If you believe in Jesus you are not condemned!

If you are not condemned you will have eternal life with him!

STAND ON IT. IT IS A FIRM FOUNDATION.​

The word "believes" is in context to the Condemnation mentioned in 3:19-21. The Condemnation is about those who did not truly come to the Light because they loved the darkness of their own evil deeds. You can't come to the Light and also love the darkness of your own evil deeds. One would still be under the Condemnation if they are still loving their own evil. For you can't love God and also love evil (sin). For no man can serve two masters.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Seriously? You have to twist Numbers 22 to say something completely different in order to see something different than what I had shown. I was just repeating in my own words what the text plainly says. But believe what you will. No need to discuss it further.

Jason - If you are going to accuse me of twisting scripture to say something it doesn't - show me where I have "twisted".

Why would Balaam turn from "seeking for enchantments" (KJV), "turn from divination" (NIV) - if he never practiced it?

OK, back on subject . . .

Repost:

1) When you confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, are you saved?
2) When you are saved are you born of the Spirit?
3) When you were first born - it was a birth from your natural parents - flesh [corruptible seed] . . Can anything make them NOT your parents?
4) When you are born the second time, i.e. born again of the Spirit [God calls this incorruptible seed] - What makes you think that God is any less of a 'parent' then your real parents?
Now Okay - we are born again of the Spirit - 5) Do we still live in the flesh?
6) Do we still have to deal with the old man nature? Do we battle between the new man God created in us [because we want to do what is right] and the old man that is still around wanting to do things his way? That part is our walk with God. That part is our relationship to the Father. That part is our fellowship.

The new birth marks the Administration of Grace and God used three specific words that refer to our being "born again" and each of them ONLY appear in the epistles to the church, the body of Christ.
(1) anagennao - from the Greek prefix ana meaning "again" or "up" and gennao meaning "to give birth." It means to be given birth to again, or to be born again and it occurs in 1 Peter 1;3,23 (2) paliggenesia - from palin meaning "again" and genesis meaning "genesis" or "origin". It means to have an origin again, a new genesis and it occurs in Titus 3:5
(3) apokueo - from the Greek prefix apo meaning "away from" and kueo meaning "to be pregnant". It means "to give birth to" occurs in James 1:18

That new creation created in righteousness and holiness is actually born in you! AMAZING how great and wonderful God is . . . I have never said that I condone sin nor condone anyone who lives in sin and I do believe that it is to our advantage to live and walk in life guided by the Spirit - but sometimes we just don't cut the mustard - but we never become "UN- born".

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

God does hold us securely and God will do all that He can to keep us, for it is written that God desires none to perish, and that all come to the Truth, So of coarse God will try to hold us securely, the problem is not with God, but with our own selves.
The problem with OSAS is the ALWAYS SAVED part, its simply not the Truth nor is it Biblical, because the Scriptures plainly teach that a name can be blotted out of the Book of Life. That many call Jesus Lord, who will not be taken with Him, there are hundreds of example in the Bible that plainly teaches it is NOT ALWAYS, because there are some things that would negate that Salvation, such as unforgiveness towards others, hatred towards others. What about having all the Faith in the world that you are SAVED and will always be Saved, yet you have no works, what does the Bible say about that kind of Faith? it is dead. So people who believe OSAS can't possibly believe the Bible and OSAS, they either believe one or the other. if you believe the Bible you can't believe OSAS, and if you believe OSAS then you can't believe the Bible.
We are taught all our lives to believe in OSAS, but anyone who does a study of the Word of God will soon realize there are major flaws to that teaching, they will soon realize it is NOT what the Bible teaches at all, it is however what preachers teach to fill the pews, it is easy on the ears. come up and be SAVED that is all you have to do and you ARE GOING to Heaven, wow, easy, sign me up. fills the pews for sure. But anyone who studies the Bible will soon come to know the Truth concerning OSAS. i have read the entire Bible over 80 times in my life, and OSAS is NOT the Truth.

thanks for typing all that, Dave, but you didn't actually answer my question.

Nor was i trying to answer your question sister. You did not ask me any question, i was merely responding to what you said in the post.

^i^

 

[BradC]

Nor was i trying to answer your question sister. You did not ask me any question, i was merely responding to what you said in the post.

^i^

Here is the series of questions asked to address you and others.

i have a question...why would some of you assume those of us who believe
God holds us securely are woeful, unrepentant sinners?
(honest question)

why would we need threats and fear to obey the Lord,
when we can do so gladly and eagerly because we love Him?
why would any true child of God...who had walked with Him a while...
who had learned to trust Him and been given by Him love for Him...
why would any such Christian need threats?

i'm a parent. when our children were very small, they had to know the rules
and the consequences for breaking them. as they grew, they began to see
the rules were in place for their good and their dad and i had their best interests at heart...
and they trusted us and did as we asked out of love for us and trust in us.

does it really work that differently with our Father in heaven?

I would like to add that when we see the word or phrase concerning 'fear the Lord' the word 'fear' means is to have a reverential trust in the words of the Lord. The Spirit of promise that dwells within the believer sheds abroad the love of God in our hearts (Rom 5:5). We are not motivated by threats or a fear of repercussions as Psychomom has objectively illustrated within the institution and framework of the family. That love (agape) is the motivation from God that we have in our hearts to serve God, the living God accompanied by a conscience that has been purged by the blood from dead works (Heb 9:14). Whom the Lord loves He chastens as a son (Heb 12:6) and if we be without chastisement then we are not sons but bastards (Heb 12:8).

While we were sinners (not sons) God commended his love toward us (Rom 5:8). We were loved by God before we became a son, how much more are we loved as a son, an adopted son, with all sin put away (Rom 8:15, Gal 4:5, Eph 1:5), having the Spirit of adoption and the promise that nothing shall be able to separate us from that love as a son (Rom 8:35-39).

 

[BradC]

You have to look at both sets of verses and make them work together. One truth does not nullify another truth in the Bible. We merely yield to God's Spirit or work that He wants to do in us. In other words, I want you to show me how the verses I listed do not teach how God does the work within the Believer.

I am not trying to nullify any of those verses you mentioned, but I am trying to enlighten your understanding that is missing the mark and falling short. God works in us through grace and truth the mind of Christ (the will of God) and we work out by faith obedience and lots of grace what God has worked in us. We are co-laborers in Christ. He is the head and were are the members of his body, flesh and bones. He ministers the word to us, every member, through the Spirit who abides in the life of those who God has raised up. During this working out process we fail, fall short, live at times outside the will of God, backslide, have wrong relationships with others and all sorts of growing pains...but all things are for our sakes and work together for the good (Rom 8:28, 2 Cor 4:15, 2 Tim 2:10).

 

[Jason0047]

Jason - If you are going to accuse me of twisting scripture to say something it doesn't - show me where I have "twisted".

Why would Balaam turn from "seeking for enchantments" (KJV), "turn from divination" (NIV) - if he never practiced it?

OK, back on subject . . .

Repost:

1) When you confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, are you saved?
2) When you are saved are you born of the Spirit?
3) When you were first born - it was a birth from your natural parents - flesh [corruptible seed] . . Can anything make them NOT your parents?
4) When you are born the second time, i.e. born again of the Spirit [God calls this incorruptible seed] - What makes you think that God is any less of a 'parent' then your real parents?
Now Okay - we are born again of the Spirit - 5) Do we still live in the flesh?
6) Do we still have to deal with the old man nature? Do we battle between the new man God created in us [because we want to do what is right] and the old man that is still around wanting to do things his way? That part is our walk with God. That part is our relationship to the Father. That part is our fellowship.

The new birth marks the Administration of Grace and God used three specific words that refer to our being "born again" and each of them ONLY appear in the epistles to the church, the body of Christ.
(1) anagennao - from the Greek prefix ana meaning "again" or "up" and gennao meaning "to give birth." It means to be given birth to again, or to be born again and it occurs in 1 Peter 1;3,23 (2) paliggenesia - from palin meaning "again" and genesis meaning "genesis" or "origin". It means to have an origin again, a new genesis and it occurs in Titus 3:5
(3) apokueo - from the Greek prefix apo meaning "away from" and kueo meaning "to be pregnant". It means "to give birth to" occurs in James 1:18

That new creation created in righteousness and holiness is actually born in you! AMAZING how great and wonderful God is . . . I have never said that I condone sin nor condone anyone who lives in sin and I do believe that it is to our advantage to live and walk in life guided by the Spirit - but sometimes we just don't cut the mustard - but we never become "UN- born".

Alright, I looked at Numbers 24:1. Balaam was into divination. My apologies. However, Balaam acknowledged his sin before God (Numbers 22:34). This is where he started to obey God and the Spirit of God came upon him. So Balaam was a true prophet for a short time. For he later fell away.

As for answers to your Re-Post:

#1. A person needs to experience Godly sorrow over their sin when they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.
#2. When a person is born again, they are born of the Word of God (water) and of the Spirit.
#3. It's about a living son who can participate in the family. Dead sons can no longer spend time with their living family.
#4-5. Walk after the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).
#6. It's not normal. But some do struggle with sin. But they cry out to God to have mercy on their lives (Luke 18:9-14).

The New Birth does not make you exempt from living a sinful lifestyle and or abiding in an unrepentant sin. One has to have Godly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10).

 

[Jason0047]

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." (2 Peter 2:20)

How can it be worse than the beginning? How can you be entangled again? Is not one who is an unbeliever already entangled?

"The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Peter 2:22).

How can a dog return to his vomit if he knew nothing but vomit as an unbelieving dog?

"Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. (2 Peter 2:15-16).

How can you forsake the right way if you were never in the right way? Balaam is associated with forsaking the right way. This verse could suggest that Balaam might have once been a true prophet of God until had gotten caught up with divination or witchcraft because of his love for money. It says the donkey had played a part in rebuking the madness of Balaam. The text says, the madness of the prophet. Now, why call him a prophet at that point?

 

[Jason0047]

I am not trying to nullify any of those verses you mentioned, but I am trying to enlighten your understanding that is missing the mark and falling short. God works in us through grace and truth the mind of Christ (the will of God) and we work out by faith obedience and lots of grace what God has worked in us. We are co-laborers in Christ. He is the head and were are the members of his body, flesh and bones. He ministers the word to us, every member, through the Spirit who abides in the life of those who God has raised up. During this working out process we fail, fall short, live at times outside the will of God, backslide, have wrong relationships with others and all sorts of growing pains...but all things are for our sakes and work together for the good (Rom 8:28, 2 Cor 4:15, 2 Tim 2:10).

"yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." (1 Corinthians 15:10).

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13).

 

[Jason0047]

Another verse that strongly suggests that one cannot be out of fellowship and be saved:

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6).

 

[Jason0047]

Okay, so far, the verses we have that disprove the notion that one can be out of fellowship and still be saved are:

1 John 5:12
John 17:3
Romans 8:9
Psalm 73:27
John 15:6

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Alright, I looked at Numbers 24:1. Balaam was into divination. My apologies. However, Balaam acknowledged his sin before God (Numbers 22:34). This is where he started to obey God and the Spirit of God came upon him. So Balaam was a true prophet for a short time. For he later fell away.

Thank you, Jason. I wasn't trying to argue but just wanted to line up with what the scriptures said.

As for answers to your Re-Post:

#1. A person needs to experience Godly sorrow over their sin when they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.
#2. When a person is born again, they are born of the Word of God (water) and of the Spirit.
#3. It's about a living son who can participate in the family. Dead sons can no longer spend time with their living family.
#4-5. Walk after the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).
#6. It's not normal. But some do struggle with sin. But they cry out to God to have mercy on their lives (Luke 18:9-14).

#1 - Romans 10:9,10 is not enough?
#2 - When a person is born again - They are born of the Spirit. John 3:6b - The Spirit gives birth to spirit. (water?)
#3 - My mother has been dead for years now and has not been able to participate in the family - but I am still her daughter and she is still my mom - nothing will change that fact. Wasn't talking about our walk - our participation in the family but our position in the family as a son/daughter.
#4&5 - Yes, if we walk after the Spirit; we will not walk after the flesh - again you are talking about our participation in the family NOT our position in the family as a son/daughter.
#6 - I would say that it is normal to struggle with sin - everyone who is born again still lives in the flesh and if the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit lusteth against the flesh -

The New Birth does not make you exempt from living a sinful lifestyle and or abiding in an unrepentant sin. One has to have Godly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10).

I don't believe I have said that we are exempt from living a sinful lifestyle or that we should abide in unrepentant sin. I am saying that we are born of the Spirit we are God's child - NO MATTER WHAT - we are God's child that is our position - our walk/fellowship/participation in the family can change - in and out of fellowship - that is our walk!

Thank you for responding, Jason. I appreciate it.

 

[mailmandan]

I don't ignore the verses before and after either. They do not nullify the plain meaning in 1 John 1:9, though. What do you think 1 john 1:9 is saying? In other words, I want to clarify or explain each word and what that means as a whole within the verse? Why do think the other verses change the normal reading in 1 John 1:9?

As I stated in post #578 - I believe that John has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness since what he said in verse 9 is IN CONTRAST to what he said in verse 8 - "If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" AND verse 10 - "If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." This verse has to be read in the context of the rest of the book of John – written to a group of believers whose ranks had been infiltrated by teachers of Gnosticism. Gnostics denied that their immoral actions were sinful. I don't believe it means that every time a believer sins, they must confess each individual sin as they commit them in order to receive forgiveness and cleansing of sin all over again. I don't believe that believers are lost all over again every single time they sin and are not forgiven and cleansed all over again until they confess each specific sin. If they forget one, they are toast!

Give me a complete commentary on 1 John 1:9. Can your version of 1 John 1:9 be demonstrated elsewhere in Scripture?

I agree with John MacArthur's commentary on 1 John 1:9 - Continual confession of sins is an indication of genuine salvation. While the false teachers would not admit their sin, the genuine Christians admitted and forsook it (Psalm 32:3-5; Proverbs 28:13). The term "confess" means to say the same thing about sin as God does, to acknowledge His perspective about sin. Confession of sin characterizes genuine Christians, and God continually cleanses those who are confessing (vs. 7). Rather than focusing on confession for every single sin as necessary, John has especially in mind here a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

Notice that Matthew 10:32 - "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. IS IN CONTRAST TO - 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. This is ongoing confession and ongoing denial.

Please take note I have no idea what you think 1 John 1:9 actually says. Please explain it to me.

Already have in post #578 and again above.

As for 1 John 3:6, 9 about how those who are born again do not practice sin:

Did John add a clause to 1 John 3:6,9 such as "some do and some don't" or did he make it clear that those who are born of God DO NOT practice sin?

This is true. But God is not going to give up on someone who is struggling with a sin (and desiring to stop) who is confessing it. Practicing sin is living, and breathing that sin as a way of life with no actual remorse.

Amen! The idea of "practice" sin is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. In Galatians 5:21, Paul uses the present tense which describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. Those who continue to practice such sins demonstrate that they are not born of God. Now this doesn’t mean that you can’t possibly ever stumble in one of those areas, but it means you do not continue to pursue such sins as a willful habitual lifestyle. There is a universe of difference between "practice" sin (no remorse, no repentance, no confession, just bring it on!) and temporarily struggling with a sin (and desiring to stop) who is confessing it and is continuing to pursue repentance and practicing righteousness.

1 John 2:1 offers a solution for the brethren that do sin. They have an advocate named Jesus Christ. If they confess their sin to him, he is faithful and just to forgive them their sin. Stop. That's it. You don't need to add to the truth of that. That is what it means. I just restated what the verse said. In fact, David in Psalm 51 asks that God does not take His Holy Spirit away from him for the sins that he committed. He is sorrowful before God. This is a believer. So was Samson. A man who seems to have made some very poor decisions with God. Yet, he is mentioned among the heroes of faith.

Genuine Christians do confess their sin to Him. This is descriptive of genuine Christians (1 John 1:9). SAYING that "we have no sin" or "we have not sinned" is descriptive of false teachers (1 John 1:8,10).

As for 1 John 5:16 in relation to death:

There are believers who fell away from God and were not immediately killed physically. Judas, Balaam, and Saul, etc. Besides, everyone dies at different ages regardless if they are a believer or not.

As I pointed out in post #617 - In Acts 5, we saw a sin that led to physical death; in 1 Corinthians 5:5 we saw a sin that led to physical death and in 1 Corinthians 11:30 we saw a sin that led to physical death. UNBELIEF leads to spiritual death (John 3:18). I understand "born of God, but practices sin" as an oxymoron (1 John 3:9) and "born of God, but refuse to confess my sins" as an oxymoron as well (1 John 1:9). I don't believe that Judas was ever a genuine believer. Jesus described him as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him (John 6:64-71; 13;10,11). Jesus also referred to him as the son of perdition (John 17:12). That is why Judas left and betrayed Jesus. His heart was not right with God. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing. In John 8:31, Jesus said - "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Judas did not continue. Judas was not truly His disciple.