Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

[Sophia]

I can see that one could call the judicial hardening a curse, but I don't know that we should say that the judicial hardening is a curse here. You may say that Israel is hardened in favor of gentiles now -- but that is done to make Israel jealous & effect Israel's ultimate salvation.

What do you mean by Israel's ultimate salvation?
That a remnant will be saved?
That one end time generation will be saved completely?
Physical salvation or spiritual salvation?

 

[Atwood]

History of the Kingdom of the United States (The Kingdom of the United States) - Alternative Historyn Plus I wanted to add this article since you said the U.S. has never been considered a kingdom.............

It is an interesting site, of course a flight of fantasy. Thanks for the entertainment, Kenneth. I will give you a like-post for it. I think the fantasy should incorporate King George II (following King RayGun) and George III ("Mission Accomplished").

 

[kennethcadwell]

Nonsense, Kenneth. The beast of Dan 7 are parallel to the metals in Dan 2.

The following is a sane, historically appropriate interp of Dan 7:

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon two feet as a man; and a man’s heart was given to it.

That is Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon. He was proud, sailing high, but he was made insane (Dan 4), then recovered.

5 And, behold, another beast, a second, like to a bear; and it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

This is Media-Persia (Persia being the higher side). The 3 ribs are 3 nations it whipped: Egypt, Babylon, & Lydia. Russia is not mentioned nor was Russia succeeded by Alex the Great.

6 After this I beheld, and, lo, another, like a leopard, which had upon its back four wings of a bird; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

This is the Greco-Macedonian empire headed by Alex the Great. After his death it split into 4 kingdoms, elaborated in Dan 8 & Dan 11.


7 After this I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, a fourth beast, terrible and powerful, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

This is Rome & Rome in its latter form.




17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, that shall arise out of the earth.

The USA has never been a kingdom nor had a king -- notwithstanding any current abuse of exec orders.

You really want to stick with prophecy teachers that were just making assumptions of what they thought Daniel 7 stood for, when Daniel was told to seal these things up tell the end;


Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[Atwood]

You really want to stick with prophecy teachers that were just making assumptions of what they thought Daniel 7 stood for, when Daniel was told to seal these things up tell the end;


Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Incredibly knowledge is increased today, civilization advancing exponentially (IMHO), yet the barbarians are attacking & the structure of civilization as an entirety is on the brink of collapse at the same time, possibly setting the state for the low-tech environment of Daniel's 70 week, popularly called the Trib. IMHO, it is just a matter of time before Islamists get the Atomic bomb.

The matters at the end of the book were sealed -- not the whole book. I see Revelation as an unsealing of Daniel. I see the newspaper exegesis, fanciful USA in it, etc. as sealing wax in the eyeballs.

 

[Chopper]

...


Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

It is at this time for more to be revealed as the seals are broken.... this is another sign we are near the end as more knowledge has been revealed.

 

[Atwood]

What do you mean by Israel's ultimate salvation?
That a remnant will be saved?
That one end time generation will be saved completely?
Physical salvation or spiritual salvation?

Romans 11 is the crucial passage.
Salvation is total & comprehensive, physical & spiritual -- glorified bodies, New Earth, Davidic Kingdom, fulfillment of the covenants. Israel as a nation is to be saved prior to their millennial kingdom.

 

[Atwood]

It is at this time for more to be revealed as the seals are broken.... this is another sign we are near the end as more knowledge has been revealed.

Chopper, let us beware of newspaper exegesis. However, knowledge certainly has exploded. Israel is back in the land. We would have to be blind not to see that as a sign.
But the rapture has no signs.

IMHO, no seals have been broken yet. But suddenly I expect to hear the most beautiful trumpet music! The trumpet shall sound! Hold on while I take a look at the sky!

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Well, Socrates, it seems to me to be hermeneutical blunder to have a symbol explained in the Bible, then yourself to go & try to explain the explanation as a 3rd figurative meaning. The figure is
a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast.

The explanation in scripture reiterated over & over, is that this woman is a city. Now it is a blunder then to make the city figurative again.

The further figure is having seven heads.
The explanation of that figure is
"The seven heads are seven mountains/hills , on which the woman sits: and they are seven kings."

As to the mountains, they are an explanation of the figure = 7 heads.

Now having received an explanation, it is hermeneutical folly to then make the explanation figurative & look for a figurative interpretation of the explanation.

Figure of woman is explained as a city. The woman is a figure, the city is a literal explanation.
Figure of the 7 heads is explained as 7 mountains/hills. The heads are the figure, the explanation is literal.

Rome is a literal city on 7 hills, proverbial description.

"the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."

How can this be anything other than the City of Rome?

Moreover, there is nothing religious in the description of this woman. If she were condemned for adultery, you might want to try to make that figurative of religion. But the term is fornication, not adultery. And the emphasis of the passage is commerce, not religion.

You're conflating the "woman" with "the beast" or "the seven hills" upon which she sits. They are two separate entities. Again, we should be looking for Israel/Jerusalem to enter into an end times covenant with the Antichrist or with Papal Rome/the Vatican and when she does, then, figuratively speaking, the "woman" will be "sitting upon the beast".

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Atwood every time an animal is listed in prophecy it stands for a kingdom, one exception would be satan as the dragon.
And in Revelation 12 it says Israel was given wings of a great eagle to protect them. Well guess what, America is a great nation that its symbol is the eagle.

Guess what else...

God bore Israel upon eagles' wings in the past and He'll do so again in relation to the remnant of Jews who believe at that prophesied point in time:

"Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself." (Exodus 19:4)

I can assure you that those "eagles' wings" had nothing at all to do with the United States of America.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

It speaks of the physical descendants of Jacob &
secondly about a smaller group within that group, those who are elect in Jacob.

But it is well to observe that the Church is never called Israel.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:15-16)

 

[JesusistheChrist]

And that is not your call to make when it comes to biblical prophecy teaching, as I can say the same back to you as I have mentioned in the past.

It most certainly is my place and I've already documented several of your heresies even though you stubbornly refuse to repent of the same. If I'm not mistaken, then, just a few days ago, I read a post of yours in which you stated that you wanted to be a prophecy teacher, but God forbade the same. Having suffered through several of your heretical posts in relation to Biblical prophecy, I can see that God knew what He was doing as He always does.

To call Jerusalem Babylon is a way of cursing them, and the bible clearly says to curse them you will be cursed. We are to bless Israel, and not curse them......

This is the second time that I'm asking you to cite where the Bible allegedly "clearly says" that. Oh, I know what you're referring to, but you've got that all wrong, too. Go ahead and post your citation. What are you afraid of? Btw, was John the Baptist "cursed" when he said the following:

Matthew chapter 3

[7] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

???

What about Jesus Christ?

Was He "cursed" when He uttered the following:

John chapter 8

[37] I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
[38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
[39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
[40] But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
[41] Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
[42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
[43] Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
[45] And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
[46] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
[47] He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
[48] Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
[49] Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
[50] And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
[51] Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
[52] Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
[53] Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
[54] Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
[55] Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
[59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

???

Apparently, you have no idea whatsoever who Abraham's "seed" is or who "the Israel of God" is. Pity.

You can not have a place that the bible says is destroyed by the anitchrist, in place of an area that the bible says the antichrist will never prevail against and destroy. The Lord comes back before that happens.

Better still, you cannot hear the truth, even though it's been explained to you. Again, MYSTERY BABYLON "falls" in the same manner in which the original Babylon "fell"...whether you like it or not. You really should learn how to read the Bible as you're not being led by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Well I am sorry but you and one other I seen on here have said the scriptures say that the bible says Babylon is the place where Jesus was crucified, and the only scripture given to support this ideal of yours was Revelation 17:6. So by me saying that the martyr's of Jesus is not saying where Jesus was crucified, as it is saying all that die in His name is not bearing false witness my friend. To bare false witnesses means you claim something the person never said or did as if they did it. You did say the bible refers to the place where Jesus was crucified, and gave Revelation 17:6 for that. I pointed out how that was not the case.

Congratulations...you just lied AGAIN.

Go ahead and "quote me" where I allegedly said what you've repeatedly claimed that I said. You won't be able to BECAUSE YOU'RE LYING. Don't think so? Then "quote me"... You won't be able to, liar.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

For those who prefer the truth as opposed to kennethcadwell's lies, here's what I actually said:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/47873-who-babylon-great-harlot-15.html#post1859030

Whoever this "woman" or "harlot" is, she's also repeatedly described as being a "great city" in the book of Revelation. Here, then, is an exhaustive list of every place in the book of Revelation where the words "great city" appear:

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:3-8)

The very first reference to "the great city" in the book of Revelation plainly states that it is "where also our Lord was crucified". Where, then, was Jesus crucified? Pilate sentenced Jesus to be crucified while he was at the Praetorium (Mark 15:16) and there are two possible locations for the same and they are both in JERUSALEM:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate's_court


Praetorium site

Two possible praetorium sites in Jerusalem have been proposed: the Antonia Fortress and Herod's Palace.[1] Early pilgrims to Jerusalem generally identified the praetorium with the Antonia Fortress, where the traditional Way of the Cross begins. The archaeological evidence, which dates the fortress remnants to the 2nd century AD, as well as the tense situation requiring Pilate to be near the Second Temple as the center of Passover activity, support the Antonia Fortress location.


The actual crucifixion took place at Golgotha (Mark 15:22) which very well may have been right outside of Jerusalem's gate (Heb. 13:12). Before I move on, would anybody here (or elsewhere) like to claim that either "the Pope" or "the apostate church" is "THE GREAT CITY...WHERE ALSO OUR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED"?!? It's NONSENSE, folks. Continuing on in Revelation, we read:

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." (Revelation 14:8)

Here, "that great city" is referred to as "Babylon" and her fall is attributed to the fact that "she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication". Well, where have we read that before? Right here:

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Revelation 17:1-5)

Notice the comparisons between the two:

"Babylon...that great city" (Revelation 14:8)

"BABYLON THE GREAT" (Revelation 17:5)

Again:

"...she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Revelation 14:8)

"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication" (Revelation 17:2)

"...having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filtiness of her fornication" (Revelation 17:4)

IOW, "Babylon...that great city" and "BABYLON THE GREAT" are one and the same and they are both referring to JERUSALEM and to none other as I've already begun to document in my previous posts. This will become even more apparent in a moment. Incidentally, please remember that JERUSALEM was already "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt" (Revelation 11:8), so being referred to as "Babylon" or "BABYLON THE GREAT" falls right in line with the same and is what she is referred to "spiritually" here as well. Continuing on, we read:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. And the second poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea. And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. And the fifth angel pour out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of wine of the fierceness of his wrath." (Revelation 16:1-19)

Once more, we not only see that "the great city" and "great Babylon" are one and the same, but we also see how "they have shed the blood of saints and prophets" and this refers specifically to those of JERUSALEM as I previously documented. Again, Jesus said that "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33) and "it cannot be" means "IT CANNOT BE"! Again, those who "shed the blood of saints and prophets" (Revelation 16:6) were those of JERUSALEM and no place else. Incidentally, what we've just read describes the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath upon the earth and between vials number 6 and 7 being poured out, Jesus says:

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." (Revelation 16:15)

IOW, Jesus hasn't come yet "as a thief in the night" and He's still heard instructing His saints to "watch". Yes, this is but one of multiple texts which disprove the alleged "pre-tribulation rapture" which is never coming and never promised in scripture. Anyhow, moving on:

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." (Revelation 17:18)

Again, this "woman" is the same exact "woman" from earlier on in this chapter or the same exact "woman" who is described in Revelation 17:1-5 and she is JERUSALEM. Although this "woman" or this "great city" is not presently "reigning over the kings of the earth", she will be in the rapidly approaching end times and I'll be happy to explain that as well. Continuing on:

"And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partaker of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine: and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by the sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a milstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Revelation 18:1-18)

Five times in this chapter we read of this "great city" and all five instances point directly to "Babylon" and there's simply no doubt as to who, exactly, "Babylon" is.

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her..." (Revelation 18:3)

"...in the cup which she that filled fill to her double." (Revelation 18:6)

"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her..." (Revelation 18:9)

Yep, compare these verses with those we've already covered in Revelation 14:8, 17:2 and 17:4 and you will see that they're all describing one and the same "great city" or one and the same "woman" and that "great city" or "woman" is JERUSALEM and JERUSALEM alone.

"And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!" (Revelation 18:16)

Yep, this is that same "great city" or that same "woman" whose "array" (Revelation 17:1-5) is missing one color in relation to the high priest of old and that one color is "blue" which speaks of the keeping of the commandments of God.

"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." (Revelation 18:20)

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and all that were slain upon the earth." (Revelation 18:24)

Again, there is only one possible "great city" which God could avenge the holy apostles and prophets of and only one "great city" which could possibly be held accountable for "the blood of prophets and of saints and all that were slain upon the earth" and that "great city" is JERUSALEM (Matthew 23:35) and JERUSALEM alone.

If you're not convinced by now, then this ought to seal the deal for you. Yes, we're given one other descriptor of this "great city" in the chapter which we just read, namely this:

"...and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies" (Revelation 18:3)

"The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her..." (Revelation 18:15)

"And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness!..." (Revelation 18:19)

Friends, we're given a precise list in this chapter of exactly what "these things" are by which the merchants of the earth were made rich by selling "these things" to the inhabitants of this "great city". Yes, the list can be found in verses 11 through 13 and if I took the time to do so (I don't have it available to me at the moment), then I could show you how that every one of "these things" on this list are directly related to either the building of a temple, the sacrifices which take place in a temple, the ointments used in a temple, the shewbread used in a temple, etc., etc., etc. Gee, I cannot imagine where the Bible tells us that a temple normally is located? It couldn't be in JERUSALEM, could it? You'd better believe that it could be and will be once more in the future.

Well, there is one last place in the book of Revelation where the words "great city" appear and this last reference ought to put the proverbial cherry on top of the proverbial cake:

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed unto me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God." (Revelation 21:10)

Yes, friends, there is another "great city" coming, "the holy Jerusalem" or the "new Jerusalem", which will one day descend from heaven to replace the old Jerusalem or the old "great city".

There you have it. Every verse in the book of Revelation which mentions that "great city" and every single reference speaks of JERUSALEM and of no other "great city". As such, I'd advise you all to discard any teachings which assert that this "great city" is anything else but JERUSALEM.

Hopefully, you'll all prayerfully consider these things before God...even if they fly directly in the face of your presently held beliefs or certain teachings or doctrines of your church or denomination.

Just for the record.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Except for here...

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Hey, you stole my thunder. Incidentally, it says it elsewhere, too...

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Nonsense, Kenneth. The beast of Dan 7 are parallel to the metals in Dan 2.

The following is a sane, historically appropriate interp of Dan 7:

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made to stand upon two feet as a man; and a man’s heart was given to it.

That is Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon. He was proud, sailing high, but he was made insane (Dan 4), then recovered.

5 And, behold, another beast, a second, like to a bear; and it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

This is Media-Persia (Persia being the higher side). The 3 ribs are 3 nations it whipped: Egypt, Babylon, & Lydia. Russia is not mentioned nor was Russia succeeded by Alex the Great.

6 After this I beheld, and, lo, another, like a leopard, which had upon its back four wings of a bird; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

This is the Greco-Macedonian empire headed by Alex the Great. After his death it split into 4 kingdoms, elaborated in Dan 8 & Dan 11.


7 After this I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, a fourth beast, terrible and powerful, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

This is Rome & Rome in its latter form.




17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, that shall arise out of the earth.

The USA has never been a kingdom nor had a king -- notwithstanding any current abuse of exec orders.

You're correct in that the lion with the eagle's wings is/was Babylon.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Rev 11 says where the great city is.

And yes, the Jews ARE cursed in this dispensation, as they are hardened by God. Is God cursed for cursing them?

The antichrist will turn against the Harlot, but will not overcome true Jerusalem, which is not of this world.

Hey, somebody who can read! Yes, I spoke of Revelation chapter 11...but our resident "prophecy teacher" can't even properly discern the present, let alone the future.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Incredibly knowledge is increased today, civilization advancing exponentially (IMHO), yet the barbarians are attacking & the structure of civilization as an entirety is on the brink of collapse at the same time, possibly setting the state for the low-tech environment of Daniel's 70 week, popularly called the Trib. IMHO, it is just a matter of time before Islamists get the Atomic bomb.

The matters at the end of the book were sealed -- not the whole book. I see Revelation as an unsealing of Daniel. I see the newspaper exegesis, fanciful USA in it, etc. as sealing wax in the eyeballs.

It is at this time for more to be revealed as the seals are broken.... this is another sign we are near the end as more knowledge has been revealed.

He is told to seal up the book, not just the things mentioned at the end of the book.
And it was said to seal it up tell the time of the end, and then at the end the book will be opened and what the prophecies was about and what the things in them stood for. When Daniel was given the prophecy everybody from then to now has only made assumptions as to what these things mean. Just like with the seals of Revelation, everybody can make their own opinion of what it is for but does not make it fact that was exactly what was being said. This is why I don't put stock in past prophecy teachers, as they were making guesses in most parts and points also. Daniel 7 also points out in verse 22 that it is a parallel to the end times, and not the just past events.

To me Babylon can not be the Lion, because in Revelation it shows the Lion as it has part of the antichrist one world system. But Revelation says that Babylon is destroyed by the antichrist and his one world system of 10 nations that follow him.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Romans 11 is the crucial passage.
Salvation is total & comprehensive, physical & spiritual -- glorified bodies, New Earth, Davidic Kingdom, fulfillment of the covenants. Israel as a nation is to be saved prior to their millennial kingdom.

Romans 11 is "a" crucial passage, but, alas, like so many others, you fail to understand what it actually says. If I can swing it, then I'm going to try and start a thread entitled "The Israel of God" some time soon in which I'll address Romans chapter 11 and a whole host of other similarly butchered passages.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Really?

I suppose that that's why I've spent about the last 6 weeks here "discussing the Word" with people, even as I've been doing right here on this thread, right?

I suppose that that's also why I've received 222 "likes" already for my posts, multiple positive "reputations" and why some people have taken the time to thank me via PM for my participation in this forum, right?

I also suppose that that's why this younger brother in the Lord took the time to publicly thank me JUST YESTERDAY for helping him to OVERCOME "condemnation" and "guilt", right?

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...uilty-conscience-need-escape.html#post1859810

Here's the post that he thanked me for:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...uilty-conscience-need-escape.html#post1858646

It's just loaded with "condemnation", right?

Incidentally, you're the one whose been trying to "condemn" me, but you're wasting the time, Satan.

If calling someone a heretic is not condemning someone. then I do not know what is.

I am not condemning you. I have never condemned you. this is not even a salvic issue. so I do not know what your going of the deep end for.

as for your many likes. that means nothing. Look at my reputation. Does that make me more knowledgeable? No. If we go off how many likes someone gets, we are in danger. and not looking to the right things.

Anyhow, this thread's not about me, so you can just continue on with your ad hominems if choose to do so and I'll just go back to "discussing the Word" with people from hereon.

Again, You can noy discuss the word if your going to call someone a heretic. Discussion is you showing your view. if you disagree, you just disagree, or discuss why, calling someone a heretic is condemning them.

THATS WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH!

I did figure that that is what you were talking about, but I left it for you to clarify just in case.

Anyhow, here's a fuller context of your quote in the KJV:

Revelation chapter 12

[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And...???

The "woman" is Israel and "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" will be "the remnant" of believing Jews who hearken to Jesus' command to "flee to the mountains" when they see "the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place":

Matthew chapter 24

[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand);
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

What of it?

If you'd like to see how the events described in Revelation chapter 12 coincide perfectly with prophecies of Daniel and with Jesus' Olivet discourse, then I'd refer you to the following post which I made on another thread about 3 weeks ago:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104781-war-heaven.html#post1822372

So it is just the remnant? it is not all Israel? Does not paul say in romans 11 that when the end comes ALL ISREAL WILL BE SAVED?

Now how can you say the woman is Israel (remnant or not) and then claim jerusalem is the harlot?

other than that I agree with everything else you said. Yes, the abomination of desolation has not yet occured. the final beast will commit that when he breaks the covenant made with the many.

And God will protect Israel. so ALL Isreal can be saved (as he has been doing since AD 70) which will anger Satan, who will go after the church.

Yes, and...???

What is it about "EVERYTHING ON THAT LIST" that you don't understand?

Again, here is "that list":

Revelation chapter 18

[11] And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
[12] The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
[13] And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Everything on "that list" can be shown to be used in A TEMPLE or in relation to TEMPLE ACTIVITIES and the Bible does foretell of a coming temple IN JERUSALEM.

lol. and? does that mean it is the temple stuff of that temple? Your adding alot to it. The merchants of the world are getting filthy rich on those things today as we speak. and that have been for the last 2000 years. why do you think they will mourn?

Seriously, some of you people seem to not only be ignorant of what the book of Revelation actually teaches, but of the whole Bible in general. IOW, the Bible talks about two different Israels and two different Jerusalems throughout its pages and we're to suddenly believe that the Bible is capped off with a great discourse on Saudi Arabia, America or some other nonsense.

see there you go. Not trying to discuss. but making an ad hominem attack and judging things.

I thought you wanted to discuss the word?

news flash bud, I have been studying this topic for close to 30 years. I am not ignorant of what revelation teaches. we may not agree, but that does nto mean I am ignorant

 

[kennethcadwell]

You can if you're willing to believe the scriptures:

Revelation chapter 17

[1] And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
[2] With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
[6] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

First of all, in verse 3, we are introduced to TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES:

1. A woman.
2. A scarlet colored beast.

They are NOT one and the same, even though many people erroneously conflate the two. No, there is a "woman" and there is ALSO a "scarlet colored beast" upon which she sits. Although I won't discuss this on this particular thread, I'll tell you plainly that I'm firmly convinced by both scripture and recorded history that the "scarlet colored beast" is the Vatican/the Papacy, but that is another topic for another day. In this thread, I'm going to seek to prove to you and others the identity of the "woman".

Secondly, whoever this "woman" is, she is "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (Revelation 17:6). If we continue reading on to chapter 18 of the book of Revelation, then this "woman", "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Revelation 17:5), and her insatiable taste for blood is a little bit further described. Yes, we read:

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Revelation 18:24)

Yes, whoever this "woman" is, God holds her accountable not only for "the blood of the saints", "the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" and "the blood of prophets", but also for "the blood...of all that were slain upon the earth". If we're to believe scripture and to let the Bible interpret itself, then, again, there is only one city upon the face of the earth who all of this could possibly be referring to and that one city is JERUSALEM. We read:

"Nevertheless I must walk to-day and to-morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." (Luke 13:33)

Those are the recorded words of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, and He said that "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem". IT CANNOT BE! Therefore, when we read of how "in her was found the blood of prophets" (Rev. 18:24), this "her" must be JERUSALEM.

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:" (Acts 7:51-52)

Again, it was the Jews of Jerusalem who not only persecuted the prophets, but who also slew them. As such, when we read of how "in her was found the blood of the prophets" (Rev. 18:24), this "her" can only be referring to JERUSALEM.

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sin always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." (I Thessalonians 2:14-16)

Same scenario. Yes, once more, it is the Jews of Judaea or those of Jerusalem who have "both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets". Once more, when you read of how "in her was found the blood of the prophets" (Rev. 18:24), this "her" can only be referring to JERUSALEM.

Remember, now, that whoever this "woman" is, she was also held accountable by God for "the blood...of all that were slain upon the earth" (Rev. 18:24). Wow! I wouldn't want such an accusation leveled against me, would you? Well, again, there's only one city upon the face of the earth who is worthy of this charge and I'll let Jesus Christ tell you exactly which city that is:

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." (Matthew 23:34-39)

Again, those were the words of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, and He said that upon Jerusalem would "come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar". Yes, Jesus Christ cried, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets" and, again, "in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth" (Rev. 18:24) and this "her" or this "woman" is JERUSALEM and JERUSALEM alone.

Well, that's just an introduction. There are multiple ways to prove that the "woman" or "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" is JERUSALEM and this is but one of them.

Right here you have used Revelation 17:6 and chapter 18 to call Jerusalem as being Babylon, so go and say I am bearing false witness again. You have done exactly what I said using these verses to call Jerusalem, Babylon. And there is a difference between cursing and warning somebody as John was doing because they would not listen. Cursing the nation is saying that they are evil and will follow the antichrist, which the bible says no such thing. The antichrist comes up against Jerusalem, and never prevails at destroying it. However the bible does say the antichrist destroys Babylon.