Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?
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J
You seem to think that by repeating the same lie over and over and over and over again that somehow it magically becomes the truth.
For starters, I documented in the post that I linked to that the book of Revelation refers to "MYSTERY BABYLON" which has "fallen" and I also showed you from the book of Jeremiah which John was alluding to how the original Babylon had "fallen". You can continue to ignore the truths and facts that I've already shared in regard to the same until your dying breath if you want to, but you'll never change such truths and facts.
Secondly, here is what else the Bible says about "the whore":
Revelation chapter 17
[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
You don't suppose that this "making her desolate" might be somehow directly linked to "the abomination of desolation" which when it is set up IN JERUSALEM Jesus instructed those IN JUDAEA to "flee to the mountains" (Matthew 24:15-16), do you?
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)
[sarcasm]Nah, couldn't be...[/sarcasm]
For starters, I documented in the post that I linked to that the book of Revelation refers to "MYSTERY BABYLON" which has "fallen" and I also showed you from the book of Jeremiah which John was alluding to how the original Babylon had "fallen". You can continue to ignore the truths and facts that I've already shared in regard to the same until your dying breath if you want to, but you'll never change such truths and facts.
Secondly, here is what else the Bible says about "the whore":
Revelation chapter 17
[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
[18] And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
You don't suppose that this "making her desolate" might be somehow directly linked to "the abomination of desolation" which when it is set up IN JERUSALEM Jesus instructed those IN JUDAEA to "flee to the mountains" (Matthew 24:15-16), do you?
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)
[sarcasm]Nah, couldn't be...[/sarcasm]
K
There is the problem then as not all interpretations say in the holy mountain;
New International Version
He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
New Living Translation
He will stop between the glorious holy mountain and the sea and will pitch his royal tents. But while he is there, his time will suddenly run out, and no one will help him.
English Standard Version
And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him.
New American Standard Bible
"He will pitch the tents of his royal pavilion between the seas and the beautiful Holy Mountain; yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
King James Bible
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will pitch his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful holy mountain, but he will meet his end with no one to help him.
International Standard Version
When he pitches his royal pavilions between the seas facing the mountain of holy Glory, he'll come to his end, and no one will help him.'"
NET Bible
He will pitch his royal tents between the seas toward the beautiful holy mountain. But he will come to his end, with no one to help him.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at a beautiful holy mountain. When he comes to his end, there will be no one to help him."
Jubilee Bible 2000
And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas, in the desirable mountain of the sanctuary; and he shall come to his end, and shall have no one to help him.
King James 2000 Bible
And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the sea and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
American King James Version
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
This then also still leads to another problem, as it still does not make Jerusalem as Babylon. Because the antichrist going in there to take over the country and kill the saints, is what causes his destruction. Once again I would have to say again though that Jerusalem does not get destroyed by the antichrist, Babylon does, so can not be the same place.............
K
Yes right there that I enlarged says the antichrist with his 10 nations of the revised Roman empire will make her unlivable, by destroying her because God has put it in their heart to do this. That is what the context of make desolate, naked, eat her flesh, and burn her with fire means; To destroy her, Babylon. The antichrist does not fully succeed at doing this to Jerusalem because the Lord comes back and stops him. God is not going to have a place destroyed, but come and stop it. That would be contradicting Himself, which He does not do.
J
First of all, the text says nothing of the "10 nations of the revised Roman empire" that you're forcing upon it. That's your spin on it and a popular spin at that, but it's upon you to prove your allegation. As far as the rest of your post is concerned, ironically, you're right...yet so terribly wrong. IOW, it's true that God doesn't contradict Himself, but you're the one who keeps on insisting that He does. Let's try this again:
Daniel chapter 9
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
IN THE CONTEXT OF "thy people", the Jews, and "thy holy city", JERUSALEM, Daniel was forewarned of the antichrist who would come and "confirm the covenant with many for one week" or for 7 years. IN THIS SAME CONTEXT OF "thy people", the Jews, and "thy holy city", JERUSALEM, Daniel was similarly forewarned that "in the midst of the week" or at the 3 1/2 year point of this 7 year period, "he", the antichrist, "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate". IOW, when the antichrist sets up "the abomination of desolation" (Matthew 24:15) IN JERUSALEM or when he "sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thessalonians 2:4), GOD WILL ALLOW JERUSALEM TO BE MADE DESOLATE AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHY JESUS WARNED THE JEWS OF JUDAEA TO "FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS" AT THIS TIME (Matthew 24:16). How, then, can you keep on insisting that JERUSALEM won't be "made desolate" PRIOR TO CHRIST'S RETURN when God Himself has determined that it will be? Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
Listen, friends, this isn't rocket science that we're discussing here...
Israel's/Jerusalem's final affront against God/Christ PRIOR TO CHRIST'S SECOND COMING will be to enter into an end time covenant with the antichrist and the "woman", JERUSALEM, will thereby "sit upon the beast", the antichrist. Yes, having rejected Christ and His covenant, their final provocation against God/Christ PRIOR TO JESUS' SECOND COMING will be to embrace the antichrist. God's response? Well, He'll allow JERUSALEM to be "made desolate" when "the abomination of desolation" is set up...just as we just read in Daniel chapter 9. Again, trying to understand the New Testament without FIRST having a working knowledge of the Old Testament WHICH THE NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLS is like trying to build the roof on a house WITHOUT FIRST BUILDING THE HOUSE TO SUPPORT IT. IOW, the "desolation" that we read of in the book of Revelation in relation to "MYSTERY BABYLON" is the same exact "desolation" that Daniel forewarned of.
Seriously, friends, just drop a knee by the side of your beds tonight and ask the Lord whether or not this is so. As a mere man, I'll never be able to convince any of you. God alone can give the increase.
Daniel chapter 9
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
IN THE CONTEXT OF "thy people", the Jews, and "thy holy city", JERUSALEM, Daniel was forewarned of the antichrist who would come and "confirm the covenant with many for one week" or for 7 years. IN THIS SAME CONTEXT OF "thy people", the Jews, and "thy holy city", JERUSALEM, Daniel was similarly forewarned that "in the midst of the week" or at the 3 1/2 year point of this 7 year period, "he", the antichrist, "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate". IOW, when the antichrist sets up "the abomination of desolation" (Matthew 24:15) IN JERUSALEM or when he "sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thessalonians 2:4), GOD WILL ALLOW JERUSALEM TO BE MADE DESOLATE AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHY JESUS WARNED THE JEWS OF JUDAEA TO "FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS" AT THIS TIME (Matthew 24:16). How, then, can you keep on insisting that JERUSALEM won't be "made desolate" PRIOR TO CHRIST'S RETURN when God Himself has determined that it will be? Again, you don't know what you're talking about.
Listen, friends, this isn't rocket science that we're discussing here...
Israel's/Jerusalem's final affront against God/Christ PRIOR TO CHRIST'S SECOND COMING will be to enter into an end time covenant with the antichrist and the "woman", JERUSALEM, will thereby "sit upon the beast", the antichrist. Yes, having rejected Christ and His covenant, their final provocation against God/Christ PRIOR TO JESUS' SECOND COMING will be to embrace the antichrist. God's response? Well, He'll allow JERUSALEM to be "made desolate" when "the abomination of desolation" is set up...just as we just read in Daniel chapter 9. Again, trying to understand the New Testament without FIRST having a working knowledge of the Old Testament WHICH THE NEW TESTAMENT FULFILLS is like trying to build the roof on a house WITHOUT FIRST BUILDING THE HOUSE TO SUPPORT IT. IOW, the "desolation" that we read of in the book of Revelation in relation to "MYSTERY BABYLON" is the same exact "desolation" that Daniel forewarned of.
Seriously, friends, just drop a knee by the side of your beds tonight and ask the Lord whether or not this is so. As a mere man, I'll never be able to convince any of you. God alone can give the increase.
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This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. If someone is worshiping satan or anyone or thing besides the God portrayed in scripture, they are not God's children.
Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, and follow me. It's very simple. John 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, and follow me. It's very simple. John 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
The times the gentiles come in, which is now, and since the time the gentile were first grafted in. Gentiles are still being grafted in, Physical or natural/earthly Israel will remain blind until God is done saving gentiles. When God is done saving the gentiles, the Church will be built, boom, the second coming and the eternal state is ushered in. Nothing is said about after the time of "the time gentiles are filled" about the nation of Israel. Earthly/physical Israel will be in a constant state of blinded until the end, that's all that Paul is saying in Romans 11. Jews today are non believers, they are equivalent to gentiles with no faith...Remember Paul said there is neither Jew nor gentile in Christ, no difference, your either a Christian in Christ, or non believer ... The times of the gentiles refers to this age we are in, as where anyone who confess the Lord as their savior can be saved in Christ Jesus: meaning God is no longer a God of a single nation, but now all nations are blessed because the gospel of the good news goes out to all nations. This is the promise fulfilled to Abraham that all nations will be blessed through His seed, Christ!
Why is Israel's rejection not final?, because those individuals who make up natural Israel (whoever they may be, you'd be hard pressed to find a pure Israelite these days) still have a chance to accept Christ and grafted back into the family of God just as the wild branches (gentiles) are grafted in.
Again, my main point, NOTHING is said about natural Israel when the "Time of the Gentiles" is over, that passage simply states they will be blind until this time of the gentiles is over!
Why is Israel's rejection not final?, because those individuals who make up natural Israel (whoever they may be, you'd be hard pressed to find a pure Israelite these days) still have a chance to accept Christ and grafted back into the family of God just as the wild branches (gentiles) are grafted in.
Again, my main point, NOTHING is said about natural Israel when the "Time of the Gentiles" is over, that passage simply states they will be blind until this time of the gentiles is over!
Conflation, nonsense.
I am simply pointing out what the text says -- I hope you don't prefer your imaginations.
Text give a figure = a woman.
Text gives an explanation of the woman = the city ruling.
Text gives a figure = 7 horns.
Text gives an explanation = 7 hills/mountains.
When scripture itself explains a figure, take the explanation as it is, don't try to take the explanation, make a figure out of it (figure of a figure) and then speculating dream up an interpretation.
I am simply pointing out what the text says -- I hope you don't prefer your imaginations.
Text give a figure = a woman.
Text gives an explanation of the woman = the city ruling.
Text gives a figure = 7 horns.
Text gives an explanation = 7 hills/mountains.
When scripture itself explains a figure, take the explanation as it is, don't try to take the explanation, make a figure out of it (figure of a figure) and then speculating dream up an interpretation.
Wrong:
Dan 12:
"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand."
Obviously a lot of Daniel was not sealed up in obscurity impossible to understand. A lot of Daniel is historical instead of predictive-prophecy.
I think the word is presumptions, and that surely characterizes your flights of fancy on this book.
Do you put stock in your own wild guesses?
I can't see any cogency in that comment, Kenneth. It is devoid of scripture and seems diffuse.
Dan 12:
"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand."
Obviously a lot of Daniel was not sealed up in obscurity impossible to understand. A lot of Daniel is historical instead of predictive-prophecy.
I think the word is presumptions, and that surely characterizes your flights of fancy on this book.
Do you put stock in your own wild guesses?
I can't see any cogency in that comment, Kenneth. It is devoid of scripture and seems diffuse.
U
High places.
Spiritual adultery through idolatry.
Figurative and literal, not only geographical, but also representing the continued paganism of those who call themselves God's People yet are not: Jews, Muslims, RCC, JWs, Mormons, prosperity teachers(usually lining with cheap grace), legalists. All people of the Book, but rejecting the Author, by rejecting Christ. Absolute adultery.
Jerusalem is the original city built on 7 hills. Rome is a parallel type, as is Mecca.
Rather than picking one city to focus hatred upon... look at the spirit that guides those cities. It is Babylon.
Assuming that 7 hills is equal to Rome alone is not good hermeneutic. It doesn't say "ruling city", but "great city", and then tells us that the great city killed the prophets and Christ.
The blood is on the hands of the Jews, the Romans, and the Samaritans (Ishmaelites, cuz let's be honest and realize that most of the Palestinian Muslims are actually just as ethnically Jewish as the Germans)... and also on the offshoots of those.
Spiritual adultery through idolatry.
Figurative and literal, not only geographical, but also representing the continued paganism of those who call themselves God's People yet are not: Jews, Muslims, RCC, JWs, Mormons, prosperity teachers(usually lining with cheap grace), legalists. All people of the Book, but rejecting the Author, by rejecting Christ. Absolute adultery.
Jerusalem is the original city built on 7 hills. Rome is a parallel type, as is Mecca.
Rather than picking one city to focus hatred upon... look at the spirit that guides those cities. It is Babylon.
Assuming that 7 hills is equal to Rome alone is not good hermeneutic. It doesn't say "ruling city", but "great city", and then tells us that the great city killed the prophets and Christ.
The blood is on the hands of the Jews, the Romans, and the Samaritans (Ishmaelites, cuz let's be honest and realize that most of the Palestinian Muslims are actually just as ethnically Jewish as the Germans)... and also on the offshoots of those.
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A bank is a narrow strip of land along a river or lake. As a supposed bank, this "bank" extends over half way to the Mediterranean Sea. Why do they go on calling it "bank"? Why don't they call it Ephraim, Manasseh, & Judah???
And why do they go on speaking about creating a second state to have a "two state solution"? If you look at the original Palestinian Mandate, the Moslems already got their Palestinian state; it is known as Jordan, & the part they got was much bigger than the part the Jews got. So having gotten their half, now they want a half of the other guy's half. It is like if the Hindus who somehow ended up in Pakistan after the Hindus got the huge India, would now demand that Pakistan be cut up again to create Hindu state out of it.
Rev 17-18 never mentions "adultery," neither was this woman ever a wife of YHWH.
Prove that one from the Bible. I don't recall every hearing in my whole life of Jerusalem being a city of 7 hills. The hills commonly associated with Jerusalem are Zion, the Temple Mount, and the Mt of Olives -- not 7.
Quote a Bible verse to prove any of that. I never heard Mecca called a city built on 7 hills.
And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth. Rev 17.
What is your proof that there is some ethnicity of Palestinians?
What is your proof for the rest of that spoof?
Prove that one from the Bible. I don't recall every hearing in my whole life of Jerusalem being a city of 7 hills. The hills commonly associated with Jerusalem are Zion, the Temple Mount, and the Mt of Olives -- not 7.
Quote a Bible verse to prove any of that. I never heard Mecca called a city built on 7 hills.
And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth. Rev 17.
What is your proof that there is some ethnicity of Palestinians?
What is your proof for the rest of that spoof?
U
A bank is a narrow strip of land along a river or lake. As a supposed bank, this "bank" extends over half way to the Mediterranean Sea. Why do they go on calling it "bank"? Why don't they call it Ephraim, Manasseh, & Judah???
And why do they go on speaking about creating a second state to have a "two state solution"? If you look at the original Palestinian Mandate, the Moslems already got their Palestinian state; it is known as Jordan, & the part they got was much bigger than the part the Jews got. So having gotten their half, now they want a half of the other guy's half. It is like if the Hindus who somehow ended up in Pakistan after the Hindus got the huge India, would now demand that Pakistan be cut up again to create Hindu state out of it.
Both are mixed blood, and follow false gods.
Do we need to take sides when Sunnis fight Shias? No. They are both wrong.
Israel is still in diaspora until the return of Christ. These people are just wannabes. Read the Bible. Unless Christ secretly returned to set up His Millenial kingdom without the Church knowing, this is just part of Satan's deception.
The twelve tribes are still scattered and unknown. Christ will call them out when the time comes... not beforehand.
