Will you listen to what God has to say about OSAS? Just scriptures?

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Dec 1, 2014
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Christ calls us to be perfect as His heavenly Father is perfect. See, your statement here is promoting imperfection. You are admitting defeat. You are saying... are you perfect? Implying that all people are never going to be perfect or holy. That nobody is going to turn from their evil ways. But the Scriptures say, "Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord." This is not Works Salvationsim. No, no. Most certainly not. This is Relationshipism. When a person has a relationship with Jesus Christ for real, things change in their heart and life when they repent and accept Him. They no longer run with the wicked as they once did. They no longer desire to sin as a way of life. Will they possibly make mistakes every now and then? Sure, David made some really big mistakes. But David did not continue in his sin of murder and adultery. David repented of those sins. Therein lies the difference. Jesus said, "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; ..." (Matthew 12:41). In Jonah chapter, we see that the Ninevites repentance is defined as turning from their evil ways (John 3:10).
How is it that Jesus opens the door to salvation to everyone who believes yet you constantly try to shut those doors? The difference between me and you is this: when we see each other in Heaven I'm going to rejoice that you're there whereas you in your indignation will demand an explanation as to how I made it in.

Christ calls us to be merciful, that's what He means when He says be perfect. You, my friend, are not perfect, not even remotely close. Relax and breathe deep from the living waters of God's love and grace in Jesus Christ.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Also, I am not impressed nor interested with a person having a testimony, or a vision, or special enlightenment, or revelation. All these things must be tested with what the Word of God says. Problems do not go away just because you ignore them. Problems have to be dealt with. Sin has to be dealt with correctly and that requires a believer in being sorrowful about their sin before God. For 2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. However, OSAS does not agree with that line of thinking.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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How is it that Jesus opens the door to salvation to everyone who believes yet you constantly try to shut those doors? The difference between me and you is this: when we see each other in Heaven I'm going to rejoice that you're there whereas you in your indignation will demand an explanation as to how I made it in.

Christ calls us to be merciful, that's what He means when He says be perfect. You, my friend, are not perfect, not even remotely close. Relax and breathe deep from the living waters of God's love and grace in Jesus Christ.
How is that you did not answer a simple question about a Bible verse I asked before? How can you be not forgiven if you do not forgive others and yet still be saved? For Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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Also, I am not impressed nor interested with a person having a testimony, or a vision, or special enlightenment, or revelation. All these things must be tested with what the Word of God says. Problems do not go away just because you ignore them. Problems have to be dealt with. Sin has to be dealt with correctly and that requires a believer in being sorrowful about their sin before God. For 2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. However, OSAS does not agree with that line of thinking.
I think this is the foundation of our disagreement. Why do you feel this way? I truly believe in once saved always saved, so much so that I don't even want to discredit it with the OSAS acronym.

I have wept on bended knee asking God to forgive me, cleanse me, and instill within me a spirit of holiness and humility. I didn't do this 40 years ago and that was that, I did it about two months ago for the umpteenth time, and I have been saved for more than four decades.

I make mistakes; I did today, I will tomorrow, and will continue to do so until the day I breathe my last on this side of Heaven. But I love Jesus and rejoice knowing He loves me and that it is His delight to protect me from my own stupidity and shortfalls. It is His delight to wash me and keep my seat prepared at His Table for all eternity.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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How is that you did not answer a simple question about a Bible verse I asked before? How can you be not forgiven if you do not forgive others and yet still be saved? For Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven.
I did answer it. And heres some food for thought. When Jesus instructed us to forgive others, He was instructing us for the forgivers benefit more so than for the forgiven. A person who does not forgive lives in bondage, much more so than the person who is not forgiven.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I think this is the foundation of our disagreement. Why do you feel this way? I truly believe in once saved always saved, so much so that I don't even want to discredit it with the OSAS acronym.

I have wept on bended knee asking God to forgive me, cleanse me, and instill within me a spirit of holiness and humility. I didn't do this 40 years ago and that was that, I did it about two months ago for the umpteenth time, and I have been saved for more than four decades.

I make mistakes; I did today, I will tomorrow, and will continue to do so until the day I breathe my last on this side of Heaven. But I love Jesus and rejoice knowing He loves me and that it is His delight to protect me from my own stupidity and shortfalls. It is His delight to wash me and keep my seat prepared at His Table for all eternity.
I am glad you are sorrowful before God. Not all OSAS proponents feel you have to be sorrowful before God. They believe it is not a requirement for salvation. I believe it is a requirement because that is what the Bible teaches from cover to cover. For if you are not sorry for your sin, then how can you be forgiven. It's like a man who cheats on his wife and desires to be forgiven by her and yet he does not feel remorse about it and does not even say he is sorry to her.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I did answer it. And heres some food for thought. When Jesus instructed us to forgive others, He was instructing us for the forgivers benefit more so than for the forgiven. A person who does not forgive lives in bondage, much more so than the person who is not forgiven.
No, the passage says if you do not forgive then neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you. How can you have salvation if you are not forgiven by God the Father? Doesn't make sense.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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But again, it does not matter if you live like a saint and or repent until the cows come home. If you teach that a person can sin and still be saved, then you are going to have other people's blood on your hands for teaching them that they can do evil (With the thinking they are saved). That's the problem with the Classic and Mid Range versions of OSAS.
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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While I am not against the Greek, I believe God can communicate to us clearly without the aid of knowing the Greek. God is simple and does require us to jump thru hoops to understand what He wants us to know. The poor man who picks up the Bible can know the Word of God just as easily as the person who has the aid of tools on the internet. We also cannot know Greek with 100%% certainty because it is a dead language. God is not going to hold me accountable for not knowing Greek. He will hold me accountable for what the Word says plainly in my own language. I have provided two Biblical examples that clearly refute the false teaching of Eternal Security. For these two verses cleary tell us that a person has to continue with God or they can be cut off. OSAS is against not only the Bible but real life. Since when was God ever against real life? From what I know of Scripture, Jesus favored using real life examples to illustrate spiritual truth. If OSAS is as important of a teaching as you seem to think it is, then why can't it be made into a parable or real life example? Oh, and I believe God is sovereign, too. But God does not force salvation upon people, though. If a believer changes their minds in wanting to be with God, you are saying that such a thing is no longer possible. That God just forces salvation upon folks. I don't believe that. The Scriptures say choose this day whom ye will serve. Not... I am chosen this day and I don't need to worry about serving. No man can serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other. OSAS is a false doctrine that promotes immorality and not holiness. This is evident by looking at it's fruits and what it teaches.

What God is going to hold you accountable for is spreading false doctrine. Many have posted numerous scriptures which show we are justified by a sovereign God, who alone is able to save.

Arminianism is a heretical doctrine that attempts to put man and his works in charge of salvation, degrades God, redemption and eternal security. It is a heinous doctrine which discourages believers who will soon realize they are never going to be able to measure up to God's perfect holiness and standards. I have seen many fall away because they were taught they had to "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" when they knew only God had the power to save them.

Without a knowledge of Greek, you will continue to hold to this false doctrine, and false teaching. The Greek is clear that justification is a past event, and God gives us the power of the Holy Spirit to help us walk/live (peripetao) with him through the sanctification process of our journey with Christ in this life.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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What God is going to hold you accountable for is spreading false doctrine. Many have posted numerous scriptures which show we are justified by a sovereign God, who alone is able to save.

Arminianism is a heretical doctrine that attempts to put man and his works in charge of salvation, degrades God, redemption and eternal security. It is a heinous doctrine which discourages believers who will soon realize they are never going to be able to measure up to God's perfect holiness and standards. I have seen many fall away because they were taught they had to "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" when they knew only God had the power to save them.

Without a knowledge of Greek, you will continue to hold to this false doctrine, and false teaching. The Greek is clear that justification is a past event, and God gives us the power of the Holy Spirit to help us walk/live (peripetao) with him through the sanctification process of our journey with Christ in this life.
Sure, if what you say is even remotely true, then why don't you provide us with a real world example of OSAS. However, I know you can't do that because such a teaching is false. But you know what? Eternal Security is taught in the Bible. It was taught by the devil in the Garden. The devil said, ye shall not surely die. That is the lie that the OSAS proponent has bought into. But God said to Adam and Eve if they did disobey him, they were going to die in that day (they would rebel against him). Did they die that day? Well, Adam and Eve did not die physically that day, but they did die spiritually.

Also, I do not believe in Works Salvatiionism so you can forget the whole I need to be perfect in order to be saved line. I believe holiness and fruitful works are a result of salvation. I have argued with Works Salvationists before. So I do not believe that. I believe we are saved right here and right now by what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. The only difference between us is that I believe sin can separate me between God. It's not that God is going to leave the believer the second they sin (in every case). God is long suffering towards us and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. God desires us to be sorrowful before Him. 2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads unto repentance to salvation. No Godly sorrow. No salvation. In other words, you can't claim Eternal Security because if a believer no longer has Godly sorrow in their life anymore, then there is no repentance that leads unto salvation for their life.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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I mean look. If we were only talking about one chapter in the Bible here, then I could say you might be right. But the sheer number of verses that you have to do gymnastic twists upon God's Word to push a false belief that you can sin and still be saved is wrong. For there are just too many verses that refute OSAS.

Here are 200 of them.

200 REASONS
 
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V

VioletReigns

Guest
Years ago when I was a new Christian, I struggled in fear regarding losing my salvation. I was imprisoned in a religious vicious cycle of repenting and repeating the sinner's prayer each time I felt I had missed the mark or “fell from grace.” I was terrified that I would disappoint God and possibly lose my security in Christ Jesus.

One particular night I was so anxious about this, I telephoned a prayer hotline. An elderly woman’s voice came over the phone line with such tenderness and graciousness that I felt instant relief. I explained to her how frightened I was of losing my salvation and she began to share with me the reality of the grace of Jesus Christ. It sounded too good to be true!

“Do you mean to tell me that the Lord isn’t angry or disappointed in me when I fail Him?” I asked her. Her response was something I never forgot and was what the Lord used to release me from my prison of fear. She answered with rejoicing in her voice, “I would rather take advantage of the grace of Jesus Christ and fall down so that He could correct me and show me the right way than to remain stagnant the rest of my life in fear of making a mistake.”

I did not believe her at first. I had been convinced that my salvation was dependent upon my daily obedience and that I was to try as hard as I could not to mess up. Nevertheless, I was messing up all the time and in great fear that the Lord could disown me. My own heart was condemning me on a regular basis and telling me there was no way I was good enough for God no matter how hard I tried.

I was experiencing anxiety attacks, insomnia, nightmares, restlessness, depression, doubt due to my fear of not measuring up to what a Christian ought to be. I was driving myself up a wall trying to figure out the right formula to keep on the straight and narrow. And yet something told me in my heart that I could never accomplish perfection that was worthy enough for such a Holy God.

One day I could deal with it no more. I begged the Lord to please open my eyes to the truth as my life was nothing like that of the Apostle Paul’s joyful abandonment to Jesus. “Please show me why Paul was so confident in You, Lord Jesus! Please show me why that lady on the phone had such confidence in You!” And the Lord answered me. He opened my eyes to the Word in the Book of Romans.

Romans 7:
[SUP]7[/SUP]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Paul is saying, "With my mind, I believe Jesus Christ IS God's law fulfilled!)

There is a rest for the people of God. It is trusting the Lord Jesus himself to keep you in His will. The Lord empowers us to obey Him, it is not we ourselves. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags. If we could obey Him in our own strength, we wouldn’t need Him and His crucifixion was in vain!

I am amazed when I look back and see how the Lord Himself is miraculously changing me from my old carnal self to His image more and more each day. I am amazed! I cannot even put into sufficient enough words how He has gotten me to fall onto my face in submission many times and turn away from impulsive, ungodly attitudes and conform to His holy nature more and more every day. Not of my own doing. I can’t boast of anything of myself! It has been and always will be Jesus Christ Himself who is finishing the work He began in me so many years ago.

My eyes are on Jesus Christ. My ears are open to His Voice. My heart is captured by His perfect love. My mind is stayed on Him. Not because I willed it. But because He has purposed it. And nothing I have done in the past nor will do in the future will prevent Him from finishing His work in me to glorify Himself… to me.

I am not anxious that there are some who don’t have that intimacy and reality in Christ Jesus because I know we are all at different stages of growth and yet are one body in Him. My hope is in the faith of Jesus Christ that He knows and will take care of it. I only pray in the name of our great Savior Jesus Christ that there are some here who would fall down in submission and surrender their intellect and pride to Him that they may find that rest in the marvelous abundant life He offers us. I hope one day soon you will have decided to believe Jesus Christ. The Lord’s will be done.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Years ago when I was a new Christian, I struggled in fear regarding losing my salvation. I was imprisoned in a religious vicious cycle of repenting and repeating the sinner's prayer each time I felt I had missed the mark or “fell from grace.” I was terrified that I would disappoint God and possibly lose my security in Christ Jesus.

One particular night I was so anxious about this, I telephoned a prayer hotline. An elderly woman’s voice came over the phone line with such tenderness and graciousness that I felt instant relief. I explained to her how frightened I was of losing my salvation and she began to share with me the reality of the grace of Jesus Christ. It sounded too good to be true!

“Do you mean to tell me that the Lord isn’t angry or disappointed in me when I fail Him?” I asked her. Her response was something I never forgot and was what the Lord used to release me from my prison of fear. She answered with rejoicing in her voice, “I would rather take advantage of the grace of Jesus Christ and fall down so that He could correct me and show me the right way than to remain stagnant the rest of my life in fear of making a mistake.”

I did not believe her at first. I had been convinced that my salvation was dependent upon my daily obedience and that I was to try as hard as I could not to mess up. Nevertheless, I was messing up all the time and in great fear that the Lord could disown me. My own heart was condemning me on a regular basis and telling me there was no way I was good enough for God no matter how hard I tried.

I was experiencing anxiety attacks, insomnia, nightmares, restlessness, depression, doubt due to my fear of not measuring up to what a Christian ought to be. I was driving myself up a wall trying to figure out the right formula to keep on the straight and narrow. And yet something told me in my heart that I could never accomplish perfection that was worthy enough for such a Holy God.

One day I could deal with it no more. I begged the Lord to please open my eyes to the truth as my life was nothing like that of the Apostle Paul’s joyful abandonment to Jesus. “Please show me why Paul was so confident in You, Lord Jesus! Please show me why that lady on the phone had such confidence in You!” And the Lord answered me. He opened my eyes to the Word in the Book of Romans.

Romans 7:
[SUP]7[/SUP]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Paul is saying, "With my mind, I believe Jesus Christ IS God's law fulfilled!)

There is a rest for the people of God. It is trusting the Lord Jesus himself to keep you in His will. The Lord empowers us to obey Him, it is not we ourselves. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags. If we could obey Him in our own strength, we wouldn’t need Him and His crucifixion was in vain!

I am amazed when I look back and see how the Lord Himself is miraculously changing me from my old carnal self to His image more and more each day. I am amazed! I cannot even put into sufficient enough words how He has gotten me to fall onto my face in submission many times and turn away from impulsive, ungodly attitudes and conform to His holy nature more and more every day. Not of my own doing. I can’t boast of anything of myself! It has been and always will be Jesus Christ Himself who is finishing the work He began in me so many years ago.

My eyes are on Jesus Christ. My ears are open to His Voice. My heart is captured by His perfect love. My mind is stayed on Him. Not because I willed it. But because He has purposed it. And nothing I have done in the past nor will do in the future will prevent Him from finishing His work in me to glorify Himself… to me.

I am not anxious that there are some who don’t have that intimacy and reality in Christ Jesus because I know we are all at different stages of growth and yet are one body in Him. My hope is in the faith of Jesus Christ that He knows and will take care of it. I only pray in the name of our great Savior Jesus Christ that there are some here who would fall down in submission and surrender their intellect and pride to Him that they may find that rest in the marvelous abundant life He offers us. I hope one day soon you will have decided to believe Jesus Christ. The Lord’s will be done.
If you would have just believed 1 John 1:9 there would have been no need to be in anxiety. But the Scriptures do say to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Not on the level of what you had went thru. But you have to realize that the fear of the Lord men depart from evil; And perfect love casts out fear.

As for Romans chapter 7: Well, most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans chapter 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. Actually, Paul is speaking to his ex Jewish brothers (or those trying to keep the Law of Moses). He is referring to his experience as an outward Jew (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey the Law. Paul gives these outward Jews the solution to overcome their struggle to keep the Law with Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).

#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.

In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."

Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.

For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).



This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.

#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.

#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.

#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.

#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.

“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).​
“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).​
If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-25.​

Anyways, I hope this helps.

And may God bless you.


Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Also, the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14 can also give the believer an assurance of their salvation, as well. Meaning, the Tax Collector was justified by crying out to God for desiring to have mercy on him in being a sinner versus the Pharisee who thought he was God's untouchable child who was better than others. So again. There is no need for a person to be in anxiety over their salvation. The Scriptures can assure your salvation if you have Godly sorrow over your sin. 2 Corinthians 7:10 says Godly sorrow leads unto repentance to salvation (that one should not regret).
 
Jul 22, 2014
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As for Romans 7:25:

The Good New Translation clears up the confusion on this one.

Romans 7:25 GNT

​"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin."

In other words, it is saying apart from Jesus Christ one serves the Law with their mind, and the law of sin with their human nature. It is only in Jesus Christ who shall deliver them. The Old Law is not something that applies to Christians. Romans 8:1 says there is no Condemnation who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. That is the solution. The solution is not thinking you can obey the law and your sinful nature at the same time. The solution is in Jesus Christ and walking after the Spirit and not walking after the flesh.
 
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VioletReigns

Guest
Doesn't it seem strange to you that the disciples and apostles and all the followers of Jesus Christ only had Jesus and no Bible (the New Testament wasn't written yet), no graphs, no concordance, no books on hermeneutics, and yet lived gloriously liberated lives in Christ? Isn't it something that not many intellectuals, not many studious, not many respectable, not many scholars followed Jesus? Most of the Lord's company were riff raff and looked down upon in polite society. Most of them had no talent for Scripture memorization. God doesn't call many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble.

Instead He has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are (or think they are) strong.

The more I read these posts regarding those who think they can add to what Jesus Christ has already done, the more I realize how deep the stronghold of legalism and extremism is upon some of you. Only God can open your eyes to the truth of Jesus Christ in His time.

This battle is not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and rulers of darkness. This battle is the Lord's. I will debate with you no more.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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Romans 11

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Someone please explain to me, How a gentile who is grafted into the cultivated tree of Christ, if you believe in OSAS, how can they be cut off?

1) In God's sovereignty, He gives us ability and freewill to chose who we will follow.
2) We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, not works (faith is belief)
3) Just as easy as it is to accept Christ, it's possible to reject Him (do to one's unbelief)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Just because there are many Works Salvationist churches (Of which I do not agree with), does not mean you are looking at all the Bible believing churches (Not cults such as Catholicism, JW's, etc) in your area. It does not mean you investigated the stories of ex-OSAS proponents who did feel enslaved by their sin. It doesn't mean you experienced the darker world of OSAS of which you clearly do not want to see. For folks have committed suicide thinking they were saved because of OSAS. Suicide! That is the evil we are dealing with here. As for your mention of ignoring many Bible verses: Actually, I cannot see how you can read your Bible and think that your salvation is not Conditional. For Jesus says if you do not forgive, then you are not forgiven. How exactly does that verse work in the OSAS model of sin and still be saved? Oh, and I am not God. Far from it. I am only quoting what the Scriptures say. I am using real life examples like Jesus did to illustrate spiritual truth. Something that OSAS cannot do. Because it is a lie. A lie that leads people into a life style of sin. Maybe not everyone. But it does sure do so for a lot of people, though.
dark world of Osas?

Dude there is no dark world in OSAS. because it is based on faith in Christ, and ALL that he says. Including the fact that he gives grace to the humble, but rejects the proud. There is no pride in OSAS, it is the opposite of pride. Pride is in legalism, pride must be broken in order for someone to truly repent and have true faith in God.

So when are you going to allow God to break your pride?

Yes, SOme turn the grace of God to licentiousness, but does that negate the grace of God to all others because some people want to twist Gods grace to their destruction?

The dark world is legalism, it is being entangled again as slaves to sin. You deny your sin, and think you are more righteous than everyone else. You prove it in your own posts.

As for churches. I grew up baptist. I have been or visited almost every denomination you can think of. 99 percent of them are legalistic. You deny you teach works. but you do that very thing, you are blinded to what you even believe, Your the fool which as paul said, think you are made right with God in the spirit, but must perfect that life in God with the flesh (good deeds)


 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I agree with you very very much, but legalisim is in the "eye of the beholder"

What one calls "legalisim" could be seeking to obey Instruction out of a pure heart....

and there is "legalisim" of "justified by works" which is in reality "illegalisim"

seeking to obey Instruction out of a pure heart

John 7:16-17 "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching--whether it comes from Yahweh, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

John 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."

I agree with what you say.

But remember what legalism is. It says we are saved by our obedient actions. and not saved because of sin, or lose salvation because of sin.

The pharisees desired to obey God in their hearts. Saul killed the people of Christ with a sincere heart that that was what his God wanted him to do (to take away the heretics of satan in the new cult from a man who rejected the words of God (Christ)

Christ had to tear down pauls pride to get him to trust Christ. A legalism is still in pride. his desire to obey God is meaningless if he has not taken care of his separation from God. and there is only one way to do this, A legalist has yet to see this.


A legalist claims to be saved by Grace, Claims he has great desire to obey God (and like the pharisees, are angry at anyone who calls them out) yet has not yet found grace, because he is teaching Gods grace is not freely given, it must be earned, by whatever way they deem it must be earned (there are so many differing views of what must be done, it is exhausting to even think of it)

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Not all OSAS proponents are alike. I have a close friend who believes in OSAS Lite. It is the teaching that you cannot practice sin otherwise you never knew God. While I disagree with even with this form of OSAS, I can say he is my brother because he does not make excuses for sin for any believer. So when I say OSAS.... I am referring to Classic OSAS and not OSAS Lite. Classic OSAS and Mid Range OSAS both teach that you can sin and still be saved. This is what I am fighting. Evil. People trying to do evil.

yet you excuse your own evil, as not evil, and judge others.

You do not even understand what eternal security in God is. People who are secure in Christ and their faith in him do not excuse their sin. People like you who teach legalism excuse their sin. And judge things they can not comprehend.