Music in Church?

dcontroversal · Jan 23, 2015

That has got to be one of the most moronic statements I have seen it my life......the PSALMS ARE INSPIRED OF GOD, MAKE THE WORD OF GOD FOR ALL ETERNAL AGES, ARE ACCEPTABLE UNTO GOD and to say they are CARNAL because instruments were used is the capstone of ignorance and takes the cake for sure!

posthuman · Jan 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

i can't help but wonder have you actually read that verse you mentioned?

Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.
Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
(Colossians 2:20-23)

which part of freedom in Christ to do the same things that God approved in the Psalms is "false humility and harsh treatment of the body" ?
when one says "thou shalt not strum a guitar" and another says "it is good to make music to the Lord" -- which one is saying something more closely parallel to "do not handle! do not taste! do not touch!" ?
when we affirm that the scriptures actually and literally encourage praising Him with all kinds of instruments, and you say it is 'unlawful' to do so, though the scriptures never say this, which of us is engrossed in "merely human commands and teachings" ?

i'm not sure why i keep responding to this thread. i guess because it is so easy to destroy all your arguments ..? it's really very hard for me to understand how anyone can be carried away by such plainly contrary teaching, but obviously it happens.

dcontroversal · Jan 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

Let us see.....

Harps used in the Psalms..

Praise the Lord with the HARP 33:2
upon the harp I will praise the 43:4
Harps used in 49:4, 57:8, 71:22, 81:2, 92:3, 98:5, 108:2, 147:7, 149:3, 150:3

Revelation USES of the HARP

Revelation 14:2 I heard the voice of harpers harping
Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and MUSICIANS
Revelation 5:8 having EVERY ONE OF THEM HARPS

Do you actually know how ignorant you appear? Why don't you go to God and tell HIM how harps and the use of HARPS are carnal in worship and remind HIM that he is contradicting his word by ALLOWING the use of HARPS in the INSPIRED SONGS of WORSHIP in the O.T. and that he is MISTAKEN for ALLOWING HARPS in HEAVEN and actually passing them out to the ones in CHAPTER 5 of REVELATION....

Do you actually swallow the crap that you put out? Are you seriously that blind and or deceived or just to full of pride to admit you miss the mark on many things......?

Serious dude, you should loose your COC doctrine and come on line with the truth.....! First and foremost actually trust Jesus and be born again of the spirit so as to be able to understand the truth.

ISeeYou · Jan 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

Heres an instrument of ten strings as well,

[video=youtube;aOhKewCeGnk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOhKewCeGnk[/video]

Says let him sing psalms, and so let us sing the psalms which say,

Psalm 33:2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

Psalm 92:3 Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.

Psalm 144:9 I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee.

More or less strings, who cares, your tongue is considered to have a string as well

Mark 7:3 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.

Theres an instrument of ten strings (more or less to pluck)

Lets use your logic, where does it say to preach the word of God to folks through a carnal computer?

Thats ridiculous,

"A new commandment I give unto thee,

"Thou shall not pluck A STRING while praising me"
this is unclean for you now, although you can sing about it, just dont do it, for it is a sin" LOL

Do not handle or touch the harp (its evil unto you then)

Just sing about it then, theres nothing new about the whole "say and not do" thing

tourist · Jan 23, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Let us see.....

Harps used in the Psalms..

Praise the Lord with the HARP 33:2
upon the harp I will praise the 43:4
Harps used in 49:4, 57:8, 71:22, 81:2, 92:3, 98:5, 108:2, 147:7, 149:3, 150:3

Revelation USES of the HARP

Revelation 14:2 I heard the voice of harpers harping
Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and MUSICIANS
Revelation 5:8 having EVERY ONE OF THEM HARPS

Do you actually know how ignorant you appear? Why don't you go to God and tell HIM how harps and the use of HARPS are carnal in worship and remind HIM that he is contradicting his word by ALLOWING the use of HARPS in the INSPIRED SONGS of WORSHIP in the O.T. and that he is MISTAKEN for ALLOWING HARPS in HEAVEN and actually passing them out to the ones in CHAPTER 5 of REVELATION....

Do you actually swallow the crap that you put out? Are you seriously that blind and or deceived or just to full of pride to admit you miss the mark on many things......?

Serious dude, you should loose your COC doctrine and come on line with the truth.....! First and foremost actually trust Jesus and be born again of the spirit so as to be able to understand the truth.

I agree. I have picked up a lot of bad vibes on this thread for the past month. It's OK though 'cause these vibes aren't mechanical in nature. Sounds like there has been a lot of singing out of key on this thread. Perhaps I'm tone deaf or something.

Sirk · Jan 23, 2015

posthuman said:

i can't help but wonder have you actually read that verse you mentioned?

Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.
Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
(Colossians 2:20-23)

which part of freedom in Christ to do the same things that God approved in the Psalms is "false humility and harsh treatment of the body" ?
when one says "thou shalt not strum a guitar" and another says "it is good to make music to the Lord" -- which one is saying something more closely parallel to "do not handle! do not taste! do not touch!" ?
when we affirm that the scriptures actually and literally encourage praising Him with all kinds of instruments, and you say it is 'unlawful' to do so, though the scriptures never say this, which of us is engrossed in "merely human commands and teachings" ?

i'm not sure why i keep responding to this thread. i guess because it is so easy to destroy all your arguments ..? it's really very hard for me to understand how anyone can be carried away by such plainly contrary teaching, but obviously it happens.

My heart feels bad for Seabass to
be caught in the death spiral that he is stuck in. His God is so burdensome and heavy....like a tyrant that can't be pleased.

posthuman · Jan 23, 2015

Sirk said:

*shrug* he's constraining himself for the sake of the Lord and his own weak conscious and faith. no one has ever commanded him that he must play a flute or bang a drum for God.

if eating pork offends your conscious, eating pork offends your conscious. but all foods are clean if we eat them with thankfulness to God. the thing that is wrong is imposing your own weakness on everyone else and condemning your brothers and sisters for the sacrifice of praise that they bring out of their own hearts.

i do feel very bad that instead of liberty, he's only found more chains - if he locks up himself in asceticism he's doing it for God's sake, and that's his own sacrifice, nothing that i should have any judgement over him for - but it's awful that he's thinking to serve God by binding up everyone else with commands that simply are not given to us in the Word.
even that isn't from him but from some other poor soul imprisoned by vain human commandments that imposed them on him.

john832 · Jan 23, 2015

dcontroversal said:

If not, it is right up there with several others.

SeaBass · Jan 23, 2015

Sirk said:

It's just my interpretation the NT commands the Christian to sing?

Sirk · Jan 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

And sing I do!

SeaBass · Jan 23, 2015

dcontroversal said:

The Hebrew writer clearly called them CARNAL ordinances. Between circumcisions, animal sacrifices and purifications, the OT law was clearly a carnal law. This carnality would include the burning of incenses, playing IM as ordained by David (Amos 6:5) and the animal sacrifices as David performed, Psa 66:13-15. So the constant cherry-picking out of the OT continues to fail.

ISeeYou · Jan 23, 2015

The NT says, sing the psalms, and its the psalms which are for our instruction which instruct us to various instruments, like a harp or an instrument of ten strings or whichever.

The NT directs me to know Jesus Christ is Melchizedek by the Psalms also

Psalm 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

They borrowed from here, to expound the same

ISeeYou · Jan 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

It doesnt mean you stop eating meat or drinking, or taking a bath or singing a psalm with an instrument

SeaBass · Jan 23, 2015

posthuman said:

(MY EMP)

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1544-pauls-condemnation-of-will-worship

Paul’s Condemnation of Will-Worship

BY WAYNE JACKSON

The church at Colossae was troubled by a heretical movement that seriously compromised the integrity of the Christian gospel. It was a conglomerate mixture of Judaism, asceticism (radical self-abuse), and proto-Gnosticism. For an extended discussion, see Lightfoot (1892, 71-111).
One aspect of the heresy depicted by Paul was this:

Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility [falsely motivated], and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh" (Col. 2:23).

Of special interest for this study is the term “will-worship.” It is from the compound Greek word ethelothreskeia, which has two roots, ethelo, “to will,” and threskeia, which has to do with “religious worship.”

First we focus upon the term ethelo, “to will.” Some suggest that it conveys the impression of “to seize with the mind,” to have resolve or determination regarding a purpose, with perhaps an impulsive inclination—as opposed to a well-calculated deliberation (cf. Thayer 1958, 285-286). In classical Greek ethelo was used as a prefix in various compounds which suggested the idea of voluntary action, as in a voluntary agent, or running voluntarily into danger (Vincent 1972, 912). The writer interprets the meaning as “self-chosen worship.”

Famed scholars of Greek papyri, Moulton and Milligan, suggested that the particular form used in the Colossian text was coined by Paul himself (1930, 181). There appears to be a general consensus among scholars as to the significance of the term. We cite the following testimony for those who do not have access to the many tools that address this issue.

The Geneva translation (1557) renders the word as “voluntarie worshipping,” with the text using “voluntarie” in the sense of “arbitrary.” The same version in the 1560 edition has this marginal note: “Such as men have chosen according to their own fantasy” (Hastings 1902, 923). In other words, it is a self-contrived worship. It is “worship originating in the human will as opposed to the Divine, arbitrary religious acts, worthless despite the difficulty of performance” (Orr 1939, 3085).

J. B. Lightfoot called it a “self-imposed, officious, supererogatory service” (204). F. F. Bruce declared that such stands in

contrast with the spiritual service which true Christianity enjoins in harmony with the will of God, “good and acceptable and perfect” (Romans 12:1-2), this “would-be-religion” is a “self-made cult” (1984, 128).

Even John Calvin called this worship one “which men choose for themselves at their own option, without authority from God” (1965, 202).

J. H. Thayer depicted will-worship as:worship which one devises and prescribes for himself, contrary to the contents and nature of the faith which ought to be directed to Christ(168).

W. E. Vine characterized the ambitious action as “voluntarily adopted worship, whether unbidden or forbidden” (1952, 236). Vine was following the work of Cremer (1895, 733). In the words of another, it is “a form of worship which a man devises for himself” (Carson 1979, 79), a “self-made religion” (Mounce 2006, 1131). Everett Harrison described it as a worship “not prescribed by God but only by (the will of) man” (1971, 72).

In the work edited by Kittel, Schmidt said will-worship is a “cultus which is freely chosen, which is not commanded or forbidden” (Kittel 1965, 159). In other words, it may not be commanded (i.e., authorized), and is not explicitly forbidden, so that if used such is innovative. Lenski says it is “a self-chosen worship that is willed by the will of those who want it and not a type of worship that is willed by God” (1937, 144). The “devotion was not authorized or commanded by Jesus Christ but was stimulated by the dictates of an unregenerate heart” (Pinnock 1985, 195).

The British scholar, Nigel Turner, suggests it is a form of religion “which fails to maintain the true object of worship and in place of Christ selects its own objects.” He calls it an “uncontrolled worship.” It is a worship of “free choice” rather than that of divine choice (1982, 493). The respected work of Balz and Schneider defines ethelothreskia as “self-chosen worship, superfluous worship” (1990, 381). Another scholarly source describes the error as “self-made religion, do-it-yourself religion, idiosyncratic religion” (Danker et al. 2000, 276; see also Hendriksen 1979, 132). Ellicott asserted the term clearly reflects “an arbitrary, self-imposed service” (1978, 181).

Modern Innovators

Contrary to the censure of will-worship by an inspired writer, there is the modern sectarian harangue that “God has spelled out no formula for the worship of Himself” (Blakely 1987, 14). Or the absurd notion that “in no case did they [the apostles] give directives for corporate worship” (Blakely 1988, 37). Accordingly, an absurd variety of changes have been proposed to accommodate a new smorgasbord species of “Christian” worship, e.g., the many innovations of Catholicism, Protestantism, and certain apostates within the body of Christ.
For instance one writer asserts:

It would NOT be a sin or unscriptural to have “meat and potatoes,” “pie and ice cream,” or any other healthful, helpful food “on the table” as an aid in worship (Winder n.d., 123).

Others have argued that the communion may be offered on any day of the week; the issue is immaterial (Hook 1984, 17). More recently (December, 2006) there were those brash and infamous sermons presented by Rick Atchley of the Richland Hills church (Richland Hills, TX) in which the announcement was made, and the case asserted, that the Lord’s supper and the use of instrumental music would be incorporated into a Saturday service for those who chose to worship in this fashion. Their philosophy is: Just elect your own format for the communion service and the congregational music! (For a refutation, see Miller 2007).

Similar innovators could be multiplied to the point of boredom. All such departures from biblical truth ignore the Savior’s mandate that worship must be in harmony with the sacred pattern of truth (Jn. 4:24; 17:17).

Traits of Will-Worship

Underlying the apostasy of will-worship are several godless dispositions.

Will-worship is arrogant and autocratic. It reflects the self-inflated attitude of Jeroboam the son of Nebat who devised a worship format “of his own heart” through which he “made Israel to sin” (1 Kgs. 14:16).
Will-worship is a form of rebellion. It is reminiscent of those days of Israel’s judges when every man did what was right “in his own eyes” (Judg. 17:6).
Will-worship is enslaving; a sense of self-determination is corrupting, intoxicating, and ultimately destructive.

Albert Barnes, the Presbyterian scholar, commented upon the disposition of those who argue on behalf of will-worship.

A large part of the corruptions of religion have arisen from this plausible but deceitful argument. God knew best what things [were] most conductive to piety for his people to observe; and we are most safe when we adhere most closely to what he has appointed, and observe no more days and ordinances than he has directed (1957, 271).

Prepare for judgment, all you who labor under the illusion that you may adjust God’s pattern of worship to suit your carnal passions!

References

Balz, Horst and Gerhard Schneider. 1990. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament. Vol. 1. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Barnes, Albert. 1957. Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker.
Blakely, Fred. 1987. The Banner of Truth. June.
Blakely, Given. 1988. Highers-Blakely Debate. Denton, TX: Valid Publications.
Bruce, F. F. 1984. Colossians, Philemon, & Ephesians. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Calvin, John. 1965. Paulâ€™s Epistles to the Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, & Colossians. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Carson, Herbert. 1979. The Epistles of Paul to the Colossians and Philemon. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Cremer, Hermann. 1895. Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Greek. Edinburgh, Scotland: T. & T. Clark.
Danker, F. W. et al. 2000. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. Chicago, IL: University Press.
Ellicott, C. J. 1978. The Epistles of Paul. Minneapolis, MN: James Family.
Harrison, Everett. 1971. Colossians – Christ All-Sufficient. Chicago, IL: Moody.
Hastings, James. 1902. Dictionary of the Bible. Vol. 4. Edinburgh, Scotland: T. & T. Clark.
Hendriksen, William. 1979. Philippians, Colossians, Philemon. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker.
Hook, Cecil. 1984. Free in Christ. New Braunfels, TX: Hook.
Kittel, Gerhard. 1965. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Vol. 3. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Lenski, R. C. H. 1937. Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus & Philemon. Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg.
Lightfoot, J. B. 1892. Paulâ€™s Epistles to the Colossians and to Philemon. London, England: Macmillan.
Miller, Dave. 2007. Richland Hills & Instrumental Music. Montgomery, AL: Apologetics Press.
Moulton, J. H. and George Milligan. 1930. Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. London, England: Hodder & Stoughton.
Mounce, William. 2006. Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Orr, James, ed. 1939. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Vol. 5. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Pinnock, Clark. 1985. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Vol. 4. G. Bromiley, ed. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
Thayer, J. H. 1958. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. Edinburgh, Scotland: T. & T. Clark.
Turner, Nigel. 1982. Christian Words. Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
Vincent, Marvin. 1972. Word Studies in the New Testament. Wilmington, DE: Associated Publishers & Authors.
Vine, W. E. 1952. Worshipping. Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Vol. 4. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
Winder, F. J. n.d. Music of the Saints. Milwaukie, OR: Restoration Press.

So will worship as Paul speaks about in Col 2:23 is worship does NOT as prescribed by God but done according to the will of man.......God commanded sing, man's will says "no I will do as I please".

posthuman · Jan 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

by all means, sing.

but neither the NT nor OT commands the Christian to help little old ladies across the street - so whatcha gonna do when my feeble and near-sighted oma comes to a busy intersection?

in the old testament it's said that bestiality is abominable, but that's not specifically reiterated in the gospels or epistles. what do you say, having intercourse with dogs is cool now?

in the old testament it's taught that we should hide God's word in our hearts, and bind them around our neck -- but as far as i know none of the apostles thought it necessary to repeat that in writing as a command for us. so do i sin by memorizing scripture?

this COC argument against the literal word of God, it's laughable man. and sad.
please try to think about this objectively:

no one is commanding you or ever has commanded you to play a lute for God.

"you may praise God with a guitar if the spirit leads you to" is not a command; it's freedom in Christ. "you must not play a guitar for God" is a command.

the scriptures nowhere condemn instrumental music in worship.

the proscription against instrumental music comes from human teaching, not scripture.

doing the things contained in the law out of free will, not as though by command, is not placing yourself under the law. if it were, we would sin whenever we don't covet, lie or steal.

it's the weaker faith that only allows you to eat vegetables, not the stronger faith.

the Psalms are inspired by the Holy Spirit. they are still true and have not become lies.

SeaBass · Jan 23, 2015

dcontroversal said:

1) Christ took all the OT out of the way (including Psalms) making in inactive, ineffective, Col 2:14; Eph 2:15

2) Rom 7:1-6 Paul said it is sinful for a Christian to try and keep both Christ's NT and Moses OT law at the same time, it's like a woman married to two husbands at the same time.

3) one that goes back to the OT has an obligation to keep the WHOLE law, Gal 5:3 or is guilty of all that law James 2:10. One that goes back to the OT law to justify the use of IM has left the gospel to a false gospel, Gal 1:6,7; trying to make Christ's death in vain, Gal 2:21; quit obeying the truth, Gal 3:1; fallen from grace, Gal 5:4.

4) the context shows the harps in Revelations are figurative, not literal. Heaven is a spiritual place not a physical one with physical instruments.

posthuman · Jan 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

we are NOT GIVING A LAW
NO ONE is commanding anyone to play harps
it's the false COC teaching that is giving a human law, "thou shalt not do," which is plainly contrary to what the scripture literally says is good to do.

taking away the law of ordinances does not mean that doing the things the law said are good has become sinful!!

SeaBass · Jan 23, 2015

ISeeYou said:

Heres an instrument of ten strings as well,

Says let him sing psalms, and so let us sing the psalms which say,

Psalm 33:2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

Psalm 92:3 Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.

Psalm 144:9 I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee.

More or less strings, who cares, your tongue is considered to have a string as well

Mark 7:3 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.

Theres an instrument of ten strings (more or less to pluck)

Lets use your logic, where does it say to preach the word of God to folks through a carnal computer?

Thats ridiculous,

"A new commandment I give unto thee,

"Thou shall not pluck A STRING while praising me"
this is unclean for you now, although you can sing about it, just dont do it, for it is a sin" LOL

Do not handle or touch the harp (its evil unto you then)

Just sing about it then, theres nothing new about the whole "say and not do" thing

...and you continue to lose the argument by running back to the OT law to justify the use of IM. Read the Galatian epistle at how Paul condemned some in Galatia for returning to the OT law thinking it could justify them.

dcontroversal · Jan 23, 2015

SeaBass said:

What you say means nothing as GOD INSPIRED THE PSALMS and I have biblically PROVEN your stance is based upon IGNORANCE....you do not know hat YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT and your continued addition to SCRIPTURE to try and prove your heretical stance is noted by ALL who have the ability to read. I suggest you humble yourself and admit your error and get right.....Your wrong dude..no matter how you slice it and dice it.......What part of ORDINANCE and PSALM not being the same word nor deed don't you understand....

What part of the following don't you understand...

OT--->used instruments to worship God with
IN HEAVEN--->instruments used to worship GOD

and to say it is not ok between the above two is stupid.....!

I am the LORD THY GOD I CHANGE NOT.....if it is and was good enough in the O.T. and good enough in HEAVEN it is good enough in N.T. worship and to argue this sets for plain ignorance and a rejection of the given truth......!

SeaBass · Jan 23, 2015

Sirk said:

There is no "death spiral" for doing things as God said...God accepts those that do as he says, Acts 10:35 and has vengeance upon those that obey not the gospel of Christ, 2 Thess 1:8. So do not worry about me, I alright.

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