Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

[PlainWord]

Yes, I see that you are stuck in the old covenant and testament mindset of literal and local, rather than the new covenant and testament universal and global mission and purpose.

Names not written in the Book of Life!!! That is the key phrase. Most Americans identify themselves as Christians. So either we are dead by this point or it doesn't reach us. I am stuck in nothing but truth.

I notice you didn't highlight this verse.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

The saints are dead or at least greatly diminished before world dominance. This verse is given just prior to the power being given him over all kindred, tongues, and nations, etc. For the saints to be overcome, the US has to be marginalized.

I agree the harvest is over the whole world and it is the mission field. Islam is spreading and may soon over take Europe.

 

[PlainWord]

The "Kings of the Earth" will by no means ever follow Judaism.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

We discern with insight.

No offense, but, actually, you don't.

We read the Word and listen to what it says and apply it to reality.

Whoa...is that what you meant by "discerning with insight"?!?

"Applying the Word to reality"?

Which "reality"?

The "reality" that you derive from newspaper headlines and the such or the "reality" of what God has actually foretold of in His Holy Word via His Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth? Granted, the two will eventually line up (the Word and headlines), but you mustn't put the proverbial cart before the horse by grabbing a hold of headlines and forcing them to fit prophecy. How many people looked to Saddam Hussein as the antichrist via newspaper "reality"? What about Gorbachev? Shall I go on? Ironically, there's plenty of news, some current, some past, which supports my position. IOW, there have been many moves made BY THE VATICAN ("the beast") to gain footholds in Jerusalem ("the woman") to bring about the things which God has actually foretold of, but I don't lead with the same.

I read your various points. They fail.

So you insist, but you've yet to document one such alleged "failure". That goes for others here, too. There's a reason for that...you're in error.

The Harlot is a false religion.

Even if that were true, then the Christ denying Judaism of JERUSALEM would fit. Besides, this "woman" isn't just a "harlot", but "THE MOTHER of harlots". Again, she gave birth, figuratively speaking, to ALL HARLOTS. How is that Mecca? You're not going to try to dupe us, as Kenneth did, by telling us that "Mecca means mother" WHEN, IN FACT, IT DOESN'T, are you? I trust not. We both know how "THE MOTHER of harlots" could easily be applied to JERUSALEM which was the focal point of Divine service and worship and which should have been the place where all the world learned how to worship and serve the One True God, don't we? Sure, we do. Having failed miserably (for the most part) in teaching the same DUE TO HER OWN HARLOTRIES, she, JERUSALEM, in effect, taught the world how to be HARLOTS and she is therefore rightly deemed to be "THE MOTHER of harlots" (Revelation 17:5).

This "Woman" is in contrast to the Woman of Revelation 12.

Says you.

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:17)

Revelation chapter 12 speaks of BOTH "the woman" AND "the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". IOW, THE VAST MAJORITY OF THIS "WOMAN" DOES NOT "KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD" AND DOES NOT "HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST". It's right there...like it or not.

That woman was Israel.

I agree, BUT, again, that "woman" is broken down into two totally different categories:

1. Those who DON'T keep the commandments of God and who DON'T have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
2. Those who DO keep the commandments of God and who DO have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

IOW, Revelation chapter 12 describes BOTH natural Israel or those who are in disobedience AND what the Bible calls "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) or THE REMNANT of Israelites who are in obedience.

That woman gave birth to Christ.

She sure enough did.

Then in Rev 17 John was taken to see another woman (not the same woman).

You're in error.

Again, Revelation chapter 12 speaks of BOTH natural Israel or those who are in disobedience AND what the Bible calls "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) or THE REMNANT of Israelites who are in obedience. In Revelation chapter 17, John focuses in on natural Israel or on the whorish "woman".

He marveled at this scarlet woman.

No, he did not nor could he have because Revelation chapter 17 says NOTHING of a "scarlet woman". Rather, it speaks of a "woman" who is seated upon "a scarlet colored beast":

Revelation chapter 17

[3] So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
[4] And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
[5] And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
[6] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
[7] And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Again, there are TWO DISTINCT ENTITIES here and we must not conflate them:

1. A woman.
2. A scarlet colored beast upon which she sits or which carries her.

This same "scarlet colored beast" is detailed and defined for us in Revelation chapter 13 and it is NOT the "woman".

Why? Because it was a filthy harlot religion riding a 10 nation BEAST alliance.

"Was"?

How about "will be"?

IOW, this hasn't been fulfilled yet.

Nothing about this description fits Israel or Jerusalem

Again, how can you even suggest the same when this "10 nation BEAST alliance", to use your terminology, IS YET FUTURE?

There are no kings getting rich on Jerusalem or Israel.

YET!

What is it about THE FUTURE that you don't understand?

Again, this has not yet been fulfilled.

The BEAST from the Sea is clearly identified as coming from the north area of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran. These countries (and others) form the BEAST and ISLAM is riding this BEAST. But these nations will hate ISLAM, devour her flesh and leave her naked. This is not far from happening. These nations hate the Saudis who are the KINGS of the EARTH who have been fornicating with the Harlot ISLAM.

Back up your assertion. IOW, prove where "the BEAST from the Sea is" ALLEGEDLY "clearly identified as coming from the north area of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran". Now, when I speak of backing up your assertion or proving it, I'm NOT talking about grabbing some newspaper headlines and cramming them into the Bible somewhere arbitrarily. Rather, I'm talking about you proving, FROM SCRIPTURE, what you allege is "clearly identified". Go ahead...I'd personally like to see it.

Israel has negligible trade. Saudi trades 13-16% of the world's oil. There is an enormous difference.

Excuse me, but didn't you mean to say "there is an enormous IRRELEVANT difference"?

Show me "the world's oil" anywhere in the following list:

Revelation chapter 18

[11] And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
[12] The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
[13] And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
[14] And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
[15] The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
[16] And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
[17] For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
[18] And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
[19] And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Surely you don't believe that the "oil" spoken of in verse 13 is the same type of "oil" which you referred to, right? In case you do:

Greek Lexicon :: G1637 (KJV)

Spare me the straw man arguments...I'm not susceptible to the same.

Israel is not found on a major trade route. Saudi is surrounded by the busiest trade routes in the world located on the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean. I was an officer in the US Merchant Marines in my younger years and have sailed on these waters. They are indeed very busy, the busiest I've seen next to the Straights of Malacca in Indonesia.

Sigh...

Another straw man.

Go back and reread what I just posted from Revelation chapter 18 and show me/us where "a major trade route" is mentioned. Again, even Solomon had things in relation to the temple of his day imported to him VIA SHIP (see I Kings chapter 10 and II Chronicles chapter 9).

Watch the video posted by Kenneth. I watched it some time ago. It caused me to alter my views. I was leaning towards Rome before watching it.

I've seen the videos before.

I don't derive my doctrine from videos, but rather from the Word of God.

 

[Mitspa]

Christians are not going to be deceived into converting to Islam, not in large numbers, at least. They are deceived by the Man of Sin thinking he is Christ.

So the man of sin in your opinion tries to appear as a Christian...right? Not Islam...like the pope or something...would have to deceive them...something that looks similar to Christianity!

 

[dcontroversal]

So the man of sin in your opinion tries to appear as a Christian...right? Not Islam...like the pope or something...would have to deceive them...something that looks similar to Christianity!

At the end of the day what religion and or creed is irrelevant as God will send strong delusion and everyone who has not received the love of the truth will buy into the LIE and worship whoever it is as god...regardless of the particular religion and or creed........just a thought to ponder...!

 

[Mitspa]

At the end of the day what religion and or creed is irrelevant as God will send strong delusion and everyone who has not received the love of the truth will buy into the LIE and worship whoever it is as god...regardless of the particular religion and or creed........just a thought to ponder...!

True but satans ministers always appear as ministers of light...satan is not going to try and deceive Christians through Islam...and I agree with the thousands of educated bible teachers and protestant fathers that clearly explain in great detail that Rome is the seat of all this evil...I am open to some real evidence and truth that would make me see it differently...to this point I have not seen anything to cause me to doubt the protestant fathers and what they believed was very clear.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

At the end of the day what religion and or creed is irrelevant as God will send strong delusion and everyone who has not received the love of the truth will buy into the LIE and worship whoever it is as god...regardless of the particular religion and or creed........just a thought to ponder...!

True, but the Bible does give us plenty of descriptors by which we can rightly determine the identity of the antichrist just the same and they were given to us by God for a reason.

 

[Mitspa]

You know part of this is just trying to figure out what these guys are trying to say as it relates to islam...I cant understand what they are saying...Islam is bad? YES Islam is a religion of satan? YES Is islam the harlot of revelations? No it cannot be!

 

[JesusistheChrist]

True but satans ministers always appear as ministers of light...satan is not going to try and deceive Christians through Islam...and I agree with the thousands of educated bible teachers and protestant fathers that clearly explain in great detail that Rome is the seat of all this evil...I am open to some real evidence and truth that would make me see it differently...to this point I have not seen anything to cause me to doubt the protestant fathers and what they believed was very clear.

Let me emphatically state that I believe with every fiber of my being (and for sound Biblical and historical reasons) that the Papacy/the Vatican is the antichrist of scripture even as "the Protestant fathers" did. That being said, however, again, we must remember that Revelation speaks of BOTH a "woman" and "a beast" upon which she sits and we must not conflate the two. IOW, whereas the Papacy/the Vatican truly is "the beast", JERUSALEM is the "woman" who will sit upon her or who will embrace the antichrist in their final affront against God prior to Christ's return. Again, Satan is the one who gives power to "the beast" and he has always sought the worship, praise and honor which is due Christ. As such, seeing how Christ, as the prophesied "son of David", will sit upon David's throne at His second coming IN JERUSALEM from which He will govern the nations during His Millennial Reign, Satan greatly covets said seat and he will actually sit in the same in the person of the antichrist, albeit for a very short period of time, prior to Christ's return. Time will make this plain.

 

[dcontroversal]

True but satans ministers always appear as ministers of light...satan is not going to try and deceive Christians through Islam...and I agree with the thousands of educated bible teachers and protestant fathers that clearly explain in great detail that Rome is the seat of all this evil...I am open to some real evidence and truth that would make me see it differently...to this point I have not seen anything to cause me to doubt the protestant fathers and what they believed was very clear.

I grew up believing the same thing and yet after the last 25 years of study have changed my mind....I think it goes beyond Rome as You have to look at what Rome conquered and that which it conquered will result in the ten toes/horns of Daniel and Revelation....what predominate religion is presently surrounding Mediterranean Sea?

Second....the last two or three POPES have bowed unto and KISSED the Koran...
Third...The False Prophet which has two horns one higher than the other points to the beast which works MIRACLES and demands an IMAGE be made and ALL worship the beast...
Fourth...The false prophet is the last POPE of a reunited Greek Orthodox/Roman Catholic pseudo religion
Fifth...The Catholics worship images, make a big to do about Miracle workers
Sixth...The beast rises out of the 10 horns, is of the 10 horns and subdues three of the horns unto himself which leads to the 8th and final kingdom of men (the beasts kingdom)
Seventh....The Muslims presently cut the heads off of infidels
Eight...all who will not worship the beast will be beheaded

At the end of the day it goes beyond Catholicism and all the way back to the tower of Babel....A careful study of the rise and fall of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece. Rome and what Rome culminates into will reveal an ongoing attempt by Satan to be worshipped as God in a man (continually hindered by God as it was not time yet)......it will come to be known as Apo-Theosis....I know you know Greek so the Greek should be easy to understand.......

Daniel...The beast will pay no respect to the God of his FATHERS<---Abraham also had Ishmael and the Muslims while claiming Abraham have no respect unto the God of Abraham and possibly Ishmael as God made promises unto him as well...
Whoever the Beast is...He will scrutinize, acknowledge and increase a STRANGE GOD I.E. the God of Forces and or Munitions....

Now for a completely different twist....Throw in the DAUGHTER of BABYLON<----Prodigy of CONFUSION which is called the HINDERMOST of the NATIONS and known as the LADY of the KINGDOMS the NATION which MOUNTS her defenses unto the UTMOST HEAVENS....Whose national SYMBOL of the EAGLE and is known as the hammer of the whole earth militarily........

Very..VERY...interesting times.....

and no offence but, just because a 1000000 men teach something does not make it right at the end of the day.......and having followed you to some extent, I know you know and understand that!

 

[Kerry]

The church is already deceived, they no longer preach the cross and preach psychology and self help. Just turn on TBN and see how many mention the cross.

 

[dcontroversal]

True, but the Bible does give us plenty of descriptors by which we can rightly determine the identity of the antichrist just the same and they were given to us by God for a reason.

I agree for sure...don't take my point made to think that I do not believe what you say in this post bro....!

 

[dcontroversal]

True but satans ministers always appear as ministers of light...satan is not going to try and deceive Christians through Islam...and I agree with the thousands of educated bible teachers and protestant fathers that clearly explain in great detail that Rome is the seat of all this evil...I am open to some real evidence and truth that would make me see it differently...to this point I have not seen anything to cause me to doubt the protestant fathers and what they believed was very clear.

I also want to add that a careful charting of Revelation will reveal an entity that sits above the 7 Empires that ruled or will rule the Middle East...Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and what Rome culminates into........And that Entity is a NATION and SHE spreads her RELIGION---worship GOD as you please and spreads CONFUSION (BABEL-->BABYLON)

 

[Mitspa]

I grew up believing the same thing and yet after the last 25 years of study have changed my mind....I think it goes beyond Rome as You have to look at what Rome conquered and that which it conquered will result in the ten toes/horns of Daniel and Revelation....what predominate religion is presently surrounding Mediterranean Sea?

Second....the last two or three POPES have bowed unto and KISSED the Koran...
Third...The False Prophet which has two horns one higher than the other points to the beast which works MIRACLES and demands an IMAGE be made and ALL worship the beast...
Fourth...The false prophet is the last POPE of a reunited Greek Orthodox/Roman Catholic pseudo religion
Fifth...The Catholics worship images, make a big to do about Miracle workers
Sixth...The beast rises out of the 10 horns, is of the 10 horns and subdues three of the horn unto himself which leads to the 8th and final kingdom of men (the beasts kingdom)
Seventh....The Muslims presently cut the heads off of infidels
Eight...all who will not worship the beast will be beheaded

At the end of the day it goes beyond Catholicism and all the way back to the tower of Babel....A careful study of the rise and fall of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece. Rome and what Rome culminates into will reveal an ongoing attempt by Satan to be worshipped as God in a man (continually hindered by God as it was not time yet)......it will come to be known as Apo-Theosis....I know you know Greek so the Greek should be easy to understand.......

Daniel...The beast will pay no respect to the God of his FATHERS<---Abraham also had Ishmael and the Muslims while claiming Abraham have no respect unto the God of Abraham and possibly Ishmael as God made promises unto him as well...
Whoever the Beast is...He will scrutinize, acknowledge and increase a STRANGE GOD I.E. the God of Forces and or Munitions....

Now for a completely different twist....Throw in the DAUGHTER of BABYLON<----Prodigy of CONFUSION which is called the HINDERMOST of the NATIONS and known as the LADY of the KINGDOMS the NATION which MOUNTS her defenses unto the UTMOST HEAVENS....Whose national SYMBOL of the EAGLE and is known as the hammer of the whole earth militarily........

Very..VERY...interesting times.....

and no offence but, just because a 1000000 men teach something does not make it right at the end of the day.......and having followed you to some extent, I know you know and understand that!

I would agree that it all goes beyond Rome...but these guys have written books that go point by point to prove these things...I have never seen or heard anything that compares to the depth of the points they make...and they make clear and evident sense...not some of this stuff I see often with those who teach and study endtimes...most of it makes no common sense nor biblical sense...God has called me to study and know the Gospel...I don't really care about some of this, I care that whatever happens I will be found In Him...but I do think its interesting how so many folks are coming up with so many different ideas? All claim to have studied it out and all claim to have Gods guidance...By far the Old Protestants seem to have done the best work....and are probably more familiar with what Rome really is? Seeing many of the came from the rcc... Im not going to get upset if folks have a different idea...but no one can claim they have done more study and work than what the Protestants have done on this issue.

 

[dcontroversal]

I would agree that it all goes beyond Rome...but these guys have written books that go point by point to prove these things...I have never seen or heard anything that compares to the depth of the points they make...and they make clear and evident sense...not some of this stuff I see often with those who teach and study endtimes...most of it makes no common sense nor biblical sense...God has called me to study and know the Gospel...I don't really care about some of this, I care that whatever happens I will be found In Him...but I do think its interesting how so many folks are coming up with so many different ideas? All claim to have studied it out and all claim to have Gods guidance...By far the Old Protestants seem to have done the best work....and are probably more familiar with what Rome really is? Seeing many of the came from the rcc... Im not going to get upset if folks have a different idea...but no one can claim they have done more study and work than what the Protestants have done on this issue.

Fair enough and that is your choice bro....!

 

[Mitspa]

The church is already deceived, they no longer preach the cross and preach psychology and self help. Just turn on TBN and see how many mention the cross.

Yea its a deception through the appearance of "Christianity" not islam....and that's my point to those who are trying to make islam the harlot.

 

[Kerry]

Though Islam is a big problem. the bigger problem is the church at least in America we have exploited the grace teaching and have done away with the cross teaching.

 

[Jackson123]

So the man of sin in your opinion tries to appear as a Christian...right? Not Islam...like the pope or something...would have to deceive them...something that looks similar to Christianity!

I agree, Antichrist is not only oppose to Christ but replace Christ.

In order to replace or counterfeit one must look like the original.


We know for sure that Muslim doesn't believe Jesus is God, and doesn't teach Jesus is God. They believe mohammad is the greatest prophet. If Islam want to counterfeit why counterfeit Jesus not Mohammad.

 

[Mitspa]

Let me emphatically state that I believe with every fiber of my being (and for sound Biblical and historical reasons) that the Papacy/the Vatican is the antichrist of scripture even as "the Protestant fathers" did. That being said, however, again, we must remember that Revelation speaks of BOTH a "woman" and "a beast" upon which she sits and we must not conflate the two. IOW, whereas the Papacy/the Vatican truly is "the beast", JERUSALEM is the "woman" who will sit upon her or who will embrace the antichrist in their final affront against God prior to Christ's return. Again, Satan is the one who gives power to "the beast" and he has always sought the worship, praise and honor which is due Christ. As such, seeing how Christ, as the prophesied "son of David", will sit upon David's throne at His second coming IN JERUSALEM from which He will govern the nations during His Millennial Reign, Satan greatly covets said seat and he will actually sit in the same in the person of the antichrist, albeit for a very short period of time, prior to Christ's return. Time will make this plain.

Now that I can agree with...and I feel the Lord pointed out to me one time that the woman and the beast fought...when I ask Him about a certain things in regards to a conflict I had because I seen two evil forces .... thanks

 

[Mitspa]

Though Islam is a big problem. the bigger problem is the church at least in America we have exploited the grace teaching and have done away with the cross teaching.

What part of grace offends you? Come on man there are plenty of threads you can debate that issue!