Is Christianity Monotheistic or has it become a Polytheistic religion?

[MahogonySnail]

No I never said the Son was the Father, what I said is that Jesus was both the Father and the Son, there is a difference in those 2 statements. I am not a Sabellius/Modalist, I am an Oneness believer.

Makes no sense at all. Harder to explain than the Trinity.
If Jesus was both the Father and the Son, surely this means the Son is the Father. What is it then, a new terminology "Father-Son" ? How can Jesus be both the Father and the Son, did Jesus get Mary pregnant Himself and then was also born from her?


How do you interpret verses such as John 14:12. , when Jesus said he had to go to His Father?
Did Jesus go back to himself?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Mahogony, are you saying that the 12 Apostles believed the heresy of Modalism and were baptizing people incorrectly? That is really arogant for you to think that you know more about who Jesus is than His own Apostles, the people He picked to start the Church.

No, "they" meant the modalists.


Referring to how you reached your conclusion that the Trinity was wrong, which you mentioned in a previous post:

I was raised trinitarian and never doubted it. I got saved about 5 1/2 years ago, when I got saved I started reading the N.T. over and over again God filling me like a spung. Aboitu 2 years into my walk during a 30 day fast God started revealing to me the truth of His nature, and it was not Trinitarian. I had no idea what it was actually called, I ontinued to study the scripture and formulate the view. About 6 months after the fast I got a computer and found that there was a teaching that taught exactly what God had shown me to be true. It was the doctrine of Oneness. I was amazed by this I had no idea that the revelation God gave me was actually taught in churches. I am fully pursuaded By the Holy spopirit and the scriptures that the teaching of Onenss is true. However I still attend my Trinitarian church, I do not think they are going to hell for their view of the Trinity and I oppose the Oneness Pentecostals on many of th4eir other views. However I believe God had revealed to me His treuth and I believe scripture confirms this truth not vise versa.

So it went something like this:


a) You got an idea from the bible that you yourself thought up, after reading the N.T. over and over.
b) You had a 30 day fast, which I'm sure would send any person delusional...have you considered that possibility?
c) You continued to study scripture and "formulate your view" which is a form of self-indoctrination ?
d) You got a computer , did an internet search, and lo and behold there just happened to be a website or something which agreed with your views, so they must be right.
e) You now think you have the right to tell Trinitarians they are wrong, based on a), b), c) , d) above.

And e)

You reject the idea of the Trinity despite it being believed ever since the early ages of the church, and accepted and refuted by most mainstream denominations today except for cults like Jehovahs witnesses and Mormons etc etc. And remember you can't blame the Catholics because since the reformation Protestants have had plenty of time to read the bible for themselves and correct the doctrine of the Trinity if it were ever wrong. The Trinity doctrine which is supported by thousands of christian bible scholars, theologians, historians, over the years and history of the church. Not to mention the many christians who by the way have the same Spirit of God as you, and yet firmly believe the Spirit and the Scriptures have revealed the Trinity to them. And I don't think the nature of God is something which any person can fully comprehend within 100 years let alone 2 years into your walk.

And yet despite all this you continue to claim that the Trinity is wrong and you are right?

Now that onwings, is arrogance.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Makes no sense at all. Harder to explain than the Trinity.
If Jesus was both the Father and the Son, surely this means the Son is the Father. What is it then, a new terminology "Father-Son" ? How can Jesus be both the Father and the Son, did Jesus get Mary pregnant Himself and then was also born from her?


How do you interpret verses such as John 14:12. , when Jesus said he had to go to His Father?
Did Jesus go back to himself?

Jesus can be both the Father and the Son because He is both fully human and fully God. You do believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully God don't you?

As for who impregnated Mary if I were to accept the Trinitarian teaching neither the Father or ''Jesus '' impregnated her. The Bible says the Holy Spirit came over her and she became pregnant, so I guess the Holy Spirit is Jesus' daddy not the Father at all, seeing how they are all 3 separate beings and the Holy Spirit is the one that impregnated her. Explain that one?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Referring to how you reached your conclusion that the Trinity was wrong, which you mentioned in a previous post:

So it went something like this:


a) You got an idea from the bible that you yourself thought up, after reading the N.T. over and over.
b) You had a 30 day fast, which I'm sure would send any person delusional...have you considered that possibility?
c) You continued to study scripture and "formulate your view" which is a form of self-indoctrination ?
d) You got a computer , did an internet search, and lo and behold there just happened to be a website or something which agreed with your views, so they must be right.
e) You now think you have the right to tell Trinitarians they are wrong, based on a), b), c) , d) above.

Either 1 you didn't read my post or 2 you have problems with your comprehension skills. It went more like this.
A) I was on a 30 day fast (from you response to that it sounds like you do not believe in fasting which is odd enough on its own)
B) God revealed to me that the Trinity was false.
C) Scripture confirmed that the Trinity was false
D) I did some research and found that exactly what God had revealed to me and confirmed with scripture was taught it was called oneness.
E) Yes I can tell Trinitarians they are wrong because God is truth not man.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
so now the Bible teaches heresy?

No, they believed the heresy of modalism, and this was why they did not baptise in the name of the Trinity, contrary to the Lord's command to baptise in the name of the three.

Mahogony, are you saying that the 12 Apostles believed the heresy of Modalism and were baptizing people incorrectly? That is really arogant for you to think that you know more about who Jesus is than His own Apostles, the people He picked to start the Church.

No, "they" meant the modalists.

Peter is the one that said to baptize in Jesus name only, so it has to be Peter you are accusing of being a modalist. (Even though you do not understand the difference between true Oneness believers and false beliefs such as modalism, and untitrianism)

 

[Slepsog4]

Wings wrote:

Peter is the one that said to baptize in Jesus name only

Whoa!! Be careful. Peter did not use the word "only" and he definitely did not use it as you stated above.

That and the word "alone" are often problematic grammatically.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Wings wrote:


Whoa!! Be careful. Peter did not use the word "only" and he definitely did not use it as you stated above.

That and the word "alone" are often problematic grammatically.

Here are 5 verses where people were told to or were baptized in the name of Jesus or the Lord.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8 :16 For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Now show me one single solitary verse where the apostle suggested that there was any other way for baptism to be done.

The Apostles knew that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was Jesus, yet the modern day Church starting at Nicea has distorted and perverted this simple truth.

 

[Slepsog4]

Wings,

Unfortunately you think this is some kind of formula which must quoted. A person can be baptized both ways at the same time and nothing at all be said.

The expression found in Matt. 28:19-20 and Acts 2:38 are saying different things. Your false doctrine has clouded your reasoning.

 

[Slepsog4]

Mt. 28:19

baptizontes autous eis to onoma tou patros kai tou hiou kai tou hagiou pneumatos
baptizing them into the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit

Acts 2:38

baptistheto hekastos humon epi to onomati iesou xhristou
baptized everyone of you upon the name of Jesus Christ

Matthew uses the preposition "eis". This means INTO pointing the sphere to which an act is taking one.
Acts uses the pronoun "epi". This means UPON pointing to the basis or authority by which a thing is done.

Both words can be rendered depending on the situation as "in" but they do not indicate the same thing.

And the two texts together DO NOT teach that Jesus is all three (F, S, & HS).

 

[Mel]

Ya'll are being sillly now and goin on about whatever.

The Holy Spirit, Jesus and God 'the father' are all one and the same GOD.
They just have different roles. Kinda like one man can be a HUSBAND, a WORKER and a FATHER.
Three different roles etc for ONE MAN. I believe its the same kinda thing for God.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Wings,

Unfortunately you think this is some kind of formula which must quoted. A person can be baptized both ways at the same time and nothing at all be said.

The expression found in Matt. 28:19-20 and Acts 2:38 are saying different things. Your false doctrine has clouded your reasoning.

To bad you don't know as much as you think you do, I myself was baptized in the trinitarian formula. I do not think it is the formula that matters but of the heart of the person being baptized. However that does not change the fact that the Apostles knew that the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is Jesus a truth that has been lost through out the ages.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Ya'll are being sillly now and goin on about whatever.

The Holy Spirit, Jesus and God 'the father' are all one and the same GOD.
They just have different roles. Kinda like one man can be a HUSBAND, a WORKER and a FATHER.
Three different roles etc for ONE MAN. I believe its the same kinda thing for God.

Not that is modalism, one God 3 roles or modes. However I do agree that they are one and not three.

 

[dodolah]

Here is my simple reasonings.
Can God appear in different places at one simultaneous time?
If the answer is yes, how hard it is for God to become three person yet in one?
What's wrong with Jesus talking to the father and yet they are one?
Nobody ever talk to himself at one time or another?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Either 1 you didn't read my post or 2 you have problems with your comprehension skills. It went more like this.
A) I was on a 30 day fast (from you response to that it sounds like you do not believe in fasting which is odd enough on its own)
B) God revealed to me that the Trinity was false.
C) Scripture confirmed that the Trinity was false
D) I did some research and found that exactly what God had revealed to me and confirmed with scripture was taught it was called oneness.
E) Yes I can tell Trinitarians they are wrong because God is truth not man.

dodgy dodgy stuff there. By your own admission you have not come to your doctrinal beliefs by study of God's Word, or sound biblical exegesis, half of it is your own experiences, and then researching to find sources to back up your position. And I couldn't care if you fast for 40 days, that sounds like ascetism to me. Fasting 30 days doesn't give you any more grasp onto doctrinal truth than anyone else.

I have a look on your profile and you say you are "against religion" (which is strange since christianity is a religion), you believe we should follow Christ and not pastor so and so, and yet you expect us to believe in what you say, based largely on your own experiences.

So you are putting yourself above allllllllll the churches which believe in the Trinity. Including the Nicene Creed, 2000 years of church history, what else dont you believe in, the Canon of scripture? Which by the way was also put together by the early church.

And you believe that all the millions of christians who have believed in the Trinity over the past 2000 years are wrong, and you are right , based on a 30 day fasting experience only 2 years into your christian walk.

That's some spiritual pride you have there dude.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Here is my simple reasonings.
Can God appear in different places at one simultaneous time?
If the answer is yes, how hard it is for God to become three person yet in one?
What's wrong with Jesus talking to the father and yet they are one?
Nobody ever talk to himself at one time or another?

..............

 

[onwingsaseagles]

dodgy dodgy stuff there. By your own admission you have not come to your doctrinal beliefs by study of God's Word, or sound biblical exegesis, half of it is your own experiences, and then researching to find sources to back up your position. And I couldn't care if you fast for 40 days, that sounds like ascetism to me. Fasting 30 days doesn't give you any more grasp onto doctrinal truth than anyone else.

Yep that clarifies it your comprehensions skill are flawed. what you say I said is not even close to what I said.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I think I can comprehend quite well, that based on your statements you got this doctrine or teaching about the Trinity being wrong from what "God told you" during a 30 day fast, before going to the Word.
Based on C) above, you used the Word to confirm what you thought God already told you. i..e. you found scriptures to support the view you had already made up. You also did some research on the internet etc to find other people with the same belief as you, to give your belief more credibility.
Despite the fact that such an anti-Trinitarian position puts you in the same league as the Jehovahs witnesses and Mormons etc who believe similar.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I think I can comprehend quite well, that based on your statements you got this doctrine or teaching about the Trinity being wrong from what "God told you" during a 30 day fast, before going to the Word.

Once again you have proven your comprehension skills to be lacking. I did not believe Oneness only because of the revelation God gave me but because this the truth of Oneness is confirmed in His Word.

Despite the fact that such an anti-Trinitarian position puts you in the same league as the Jehovahs witnesses and Mormons etc who believe similar.

Jehovah witnesses do not Believe Jesus to be God at all, but The Son of God only which is more in line with what you believe seeing as how you reject the truth that Jesus is fully God God the Father but claim He is God the Son only. Also the mormons belief much more resembles the belief of trinitarians than my own.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

That's some spiritual pride you have there dude.

Yes I am severely misled, how dare I believe God and His Word over you and your church. What was I thinking? Yes it was my spiritual pride that kept me from bowing to your false doctrine.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Once again you have proven your comprehension skills to be lacking. I did not believe Oneness only because of the revelation God gave me but because this the truth of Oneness is confirmed in His Word.

You believe in Oneness because of "revelation + the bible", sorry but I don't think God chose you to reveal this special doctrine, contrary to what most churches believe. Thousands of theologians who would know and understand the bible a whole lot better than you would disagree re: the bible not supporting the Trinity. Yet they must all be wrong hey because you had a special revelation from God?

Jehovah witnesses do not Believe Jesus to be God at all, but The Son of God only which is more in line with what you believe seeing as how you reject the truth that Jesus is fully God God the Father but claim He is God the Son only. Also the mormons belief much more resembles the belief of trinitarians than my own.

The thing you have in common is that they all deny the Trinity. You join the rank and file of every sect and cult that has strayed from orthodox christianity.

Yes I am severely misled, how dare I believe God and His Word over you and your church. What was I thinking? Yes it was my spiritual pride that kept me from bowing to your false doctrine.

You mean you believe in yourself over me and my church, and most church denominations.
How am I supposed to know that "God told you" wasn't you being in a delusional state after or during a 30 day fast? Lack of food can do strange things to people. You can be misled without telling everyone else emphatically that they are wrong -about a belief (the Trinity) that is a standard doctrine in most church denominations.

So much for not "following any pastor", as you seem to believe .. you want us to follow you!.
You want us all to bow to your views, because you had this "special revelation". It's pride which causes you to tell everyone else they are wrong who believe in church doctrines (eg the Trinity) that have been believed by christianity for 2000 years.