Will there actually be a Rapture?

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john832 said:
Actually, I think here statement reeks of informed accuracy. There are no scriptures that teach a "secret rapture" prior to the Tribulation.
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And John I suggest you also read what I wrote...no where have I ever said and or promoted a secret rapture prior to the tribulation period......!

What I wrote in a post three days ago.....

Not to mention that...

1. The religious lost (Pharisees) shall see him come in like manner
2. Every Eye shall see him come in like manner
3. All the tribes of the earth shall see him come in like manner
4. All kindreds will see him come in like manner

There is no invisible, imminent return of Christ where the saints magically disappear and everybody wonders where we went...

WAS, IS and IS TO COME...there is 1 (ONE) coming (body presence) of Jesus and ALL things must jive with one coming.....!
 
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dcontroversal said:
I suggest you learn to read English as the word RAPTURE is not found in any statement I made....and again I suggest you study as the Parousia is tied to Christ's coming and our gathering together unto him....my original statement stands holmes...!
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You said "meet the Lord in the Air". You want the christian doctrine of Parousia to mean something which never meant for orthodox christians: literal "snatch" in the air.
 
GuessWho said:
You said "meet the Lord in the Air". You want the christian doctrine of Parousia to mean something which never meant for orthodox christians: literal "snatch" in the air.
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1st Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Just in case you cant see that good.....what does it say?
 
GuessWho said:
You said "meet the Lord in the Air". You want the christian doctrine of Parousia to mean something which never meant for orthodox christians: literal "snatch" in the air.
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It's plain as day......
 
dcontroversal said:
And John I suggest you also read what I wrote...no where have I ever said and or promoted a secret rapture prior to the tribulation period......!

What I wrote in a post three days ago.....

Not to mention that...

1. The religious lost (Pharisees) shall see him come in like manner
2. Every Eye shall see him come in like manner
3. All the tribes of the earth shall see him come in like manner
4. All kindreds will see him come in like manner

There is no invisible, imminent return of Christ where the saints magically disappear and everybody wonders where we went...

WAS, IS and IS TO COME...there is 1 (ONE) coming (body presence) of Jesus and ALL things must jive with one coming.....!
Click to expand...

If I have misunderstood you my friend, then I do indeed sincerely apologize.
 
dcontroversal said:
1st Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Just in case you cant see that good.....what does it say?
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Very well. Does this mean that Paul was expecting his audience to actually envisage a literal rapture in the clouds? How about when he compares the second coming with a woman in labor or with a thief in the night? If yes, than how do you explain the FACT that this belief, this doctrine of a literal rapture only occurs in the XVI century and that the early church never took it literally?
 
GuessWho said:
Very well. Does this mean that Paul was expecting his audience to actually envisage a literal rapture in the clouds? How about when he compares the second coming with a woman in labor or with a thief in the night? If yes, than how do you explain the FACT that this belief, this doctrine of a literal rapture only occurs in the XVI century and that the early church never took it literally?
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No offence, but I have been studying this since you were 1 and Acts chapter 1, Revelation, Matthew, Mark, Luke all speak of being gathered together and meeting in the AIR with the Lord......the thief in the night is directed at those who are ignorant of the word and blind to the signs of the times and the comparison to a woman in labor is indicative of the quickness and severity of the signs of the times that proceed the PAROUSIA OF JESUS.....EVEN the LOST religious are told they will see JESUS come in the clouds of HEAVEN WITH POWER and GREAT GLORY....

Could care less what anyone taught in the past, present and future as the word tells me all I need to KNOW
 
dcontroversal said:
Actually I know her personally and she has a good head on her shoulders and understands quite a bit......so...the illiterate comment was a little off base...just saying....!
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The illiteracy among christians is a real issue. You don't have to get upset, but realize that maybe, just maybe, you know nothing about the jewish eschatological language.

Some christians read the Bible and think they understand what they read, but the reality is they don't. Christians take verses out of context, not only the context of the Bible, but the historical context in which Saint Paul lived and spoke and so, they make him the supporter of "rapture" theologies and other doctrines about escape from this planet into a spiritual heaven somewhere over the rainbow.
 
GuessWho said:
Very well. Does this mean that Paul was expecting his audience to actually envisage a literal rapture in the clouds? How about when he compares the second coming with a woman in labor or with a thief in the night? If yes, than how do you explain the FACT that this belief, this doctrine of a literal rapture only occurs in the XVI century and that the early church never took it literally?
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Gathering of the saints to the side of Christ as He descends from the clouds is a present image in eschatological views since the 1st century.
The only views that allegorize the passage are postmillenialists.
Unless you believe that Christ will Return only after the earth has been entirely conquered by Christianity, at which time He will take control of that earthly kingdom...

The early Church agreed that Christ would come and gather the dead and living Saints together in the clouds,
instantly giving them glorified bodies,
and then finishing His descent from the clouds with them following Him.

Some amillenialists would add that the earth is destroyed entirely at His Coming, and instantly replaced,
but the gathering in the clouds remains a solid agreement with historical premillenialism.

Rarely is another view stated, and non-existent by anyone not deemed a heretic.
 
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Ukorin said:
Gathering of the saints to the side of Christ as He descends from the clouds is a present image in eschatological views since the 1st century.
The only views that allegorize the passage are postmillenialists.
Unless you believe that Christ will Return only after the earth has been entirely conquered by Christianity, at which time He will take control of that earthly kingdom...

The early Church agreed that Christ would come and gather the dead and living Saints together in the clouds,
instantly giving them glorified bodies,
and then finishing His descent from the clouds with them following Him.

Rarely is another view stated, and non-existent by anyone not deemed a heretic.
Click to expand...

The Early Church as well as Saint Paul used a lot of vivid images in order to render an event which magnitude no words can actually describe.
 
GuessWho said:
The rapture doctrine is more gnostic than christian.
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What is it that you propose the "gathering" will look like?
Gathered in death only? Then why does the Word say "and those still alive".
Gathered together while still on the ground? Then why does it say "in the clouds".
Gathered together by being given wings to fly to Christ? Well, I don't have an objection, but also see not reference to that narrative within Scripture.
 
GuessWho said:
The illiteracy among christians is a real issue. You don't have to get upset, but realize that maybe, just maybe, you know nothing about the jewish eschatological language.

Some christians read the Bible and think they understand what they read, but the reality is they don't. Christians take verses out of context, not only the context of the Bible, but the historical context in which Saint Paul lived and spoke and so, they make him the supporter of "rapture" theologies and other doctrines about escape from this planet into a spiritual heaven somewhere over the rainbow.
Click to expand...

1st of all I am not upset....second of all the N.T. was inspired and written in Koine Greek and it is VERY EXPRESSIVE.....third yes some do miss context, don't understand what they read and fail to understand the 1st century context that the bible was written in...HOWEVER....there are NUMEROUS SCRIPTURES in CONTEXT that teach that the SAINTS will be GATHERED unto Christ in the AIR prior to the ORGE of GOD (wrath) being poured out without mixture. The coined phrase (rapture) is a LATIN word and while NOT expressively found in scripture the truth of us being gathered unto Christ IS......such as...

Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:26-27, Luke 21:27-28, Acts 19-11, 1st Corinthians 15:51-58, 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18. 2nf Thessalonians 2:1-1-2 etc.

So, believe what you will........I will take the word of God and ALL of the places that testify to this truth and believe it....!
 
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