Will there actually be a Rapture?

[Ukorin]

I do not support pretrib "secret rapture", "rapture as protection from judgements", "rapture removing the Restrainer" theories,
but I can not deny that we will be caught up to Christ as He descends in the clouds, and that we will be instantly changed, and that we will follow Him down to the earth to conquer, judge, and restore.

 

[RickyZ]

Will there be a rapture? Yes. And at that point we'll have a winner in the last-to-post-thread

 

[popeye]

I do not support pretrib "secret rapture", "rapture as protection from judgements", "rapture removing the Restrainer" theories,
but I can not deny that we will be caught up to Christ as He descends in the clouds, and that we will be instantly changed, and that we will follow Him down to the earth to conquer, judge, and restore.

That is basically what pretrib teaches. .....caught up,instantly changed and then return with Jesus. Your error is that you are "gt centered" as opposed to what heaven centers us. Namely "bride/groom" centered.
I do not know any any pretribber that uses the term 'secret rapture'. That is one out of about 30 postrib adherant cheap shots.

 

[popeye]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Bingo!
Someone actually opened a bible
Kudos!!!

 

[popeye]

It will happen because the word of God says it does.

It is in fact the marker for the times of the gentiles completed. We basically have nothing to do with the GT as it is God dealing with his produgal ISRAEL/JACOB. (jacobs trouble)

 

[popeye]

Next time post whole scriptures think you try again thank you for shopping at the quickie mart , but seriously look carefully at scripture that you not be deceived or is it the judgement of God upon you that you receive a strong dillusion that you believe a truth for a lie , but this is not in any way to mock you but to allow you to rethink and re evaluate and re study to be counted approved by God in all discernment after all we all must learn and grow but instead humble yourself to be allowed revelation

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. note

Amen,I also believe in the pretrib rapture. Thanks for emphasizing the saints are already in heaven at the end of the GT.
"ANGELS GATHER.....FROM HEAVEN."

 

[popeye]

Well, the opener, just like me and a considerable number of christians all over the world, never heard of the doctrine of rapture. Why? It is simple. Because orthodox christianity (by "orthodox" I mean the christian churches who confess the Nicene creed and the Chalcedon belief) never thought or confessed a literal "rapture". This belief of a rapture is popular among the American christian sects who, like it or not, read the Bible but are illiterate when it comes to understanding what they read.

If you don't like that this rapture doctrine is an invention of the XVI century sects, it is entirely your problem. You don't have to participate in the discussion.



You should give this advice to yourself.

If you don't like that this rapture doctrine is an invention of the XVI century sects, it is entirely your problem. You don't have to participate in the discussion.

We will note that your view is based on others "misconception" of church history. (a very low info view).

Got bible?

 

[bwright5048]

There is no book "mattithyah" in the Bible... Since this is a Christian forum, I bbelieve this person is asking for prooffrom a kjv Bible.

 

[GuessWho]

And in this process of Him joining the earth and sky into a new creation, those who are alive are gathered and changed, which is called rapture. Placing it after the Tribulation period, or denying a literal physical millenium, doesn't change the existence of Christ coming, gathering, and changing those alive in Christ in an instant.

You can deny pretrib rapture, you can deny midtrib rapture, you can deny postrib rapture, you can deny a literal millennium,
but you can't deny the gathering and instant transformation of those alive in Christ at His Return and still say you hold to the Word as authoritative.

Rapture implies that you will be snatched and taken I don't know where. Christians don't believe this.

Christians wait for the second coming of Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the New Earth and New Heaven.

Their faith and hope can be seen in the last article of the Nicene Creed where they say "I wait for the resurrection of the dead and the life of ages that is to come." (They don't say "I wait for the rapture and for the millennium")

I honestly don't know what you are talking when you say "pre-trib", "mid-trib", "post-trib", "literal millenium".

 

[popeye]

I don't really know the answer to this question, so I'd like some Biblical insight into it. Please provide a full explanation of the doctrine if you are familiar (I'm pretty blank on it), and provide solid Biblical evidence for or against the event as you are able.

Is it a Biblical doctrine or not, and what Bible verses talk about it?

Please note this well:
I am not starting this thread as a place to debate about when the rapture will happen (should it do so), but about whether the rapture will happen. Actually, I don't even mean this post to be for debate at all. All I want is to know the Truth from people who know.

I know that the timing of this event is a significant subject of debate among many of my Christian Brothers and Sisters, but for me it is good enough just to say that Jesus will win in the end! Ultimately, I don't really care when it will happen if it does, because I'm saved either way, and will never let go of Jesus... rapture or no rapture... be it Pre, Post, or Middle Tribulation. The time frame or existence of this phenomenon will not affect my Salvation, only the hour at which I meet my Lord. Hence, let all debates on the time-frame of this event be saved for different threads... I do not care when it happens, but only if it happens.

I want to believe the right thing about this doctrine, so please tell me what it is. I am completely open to either possibility (rapture or no rapture) provided I have the proof. Know that you have an unbiased/impartial audience in me. I only judge by the Bible which I hear and read, and no other standard will I use...

First you need to know what the rapture actually is. This would be a starting place. Note that the ministry of Jesus STARTED at a wedding.

A clue!!!

Using the law of "last fist,first last",his last act with his church will also be at "a wedding".
The bride groom dimension IS THE RAPTURE. The rapture is the catching away of the bride.

It is uncanny that none of the "experts" seem to know this. They are so busy hating a notion,and desperate to DISPROVE it that they have overlooked and compleetely ignored this dimension. Unbelievable!!!

You will hear "i used to believe blah,blah,blah,.....but then!!!". These are the notion centered,notion haters.
To date,30 some-odd years later,I know of none of them that know anything about the biggest event yet to happen,THE MARRIAGE SUPPER IN HEAVEN,AND THE CATCHING UP OF THE BRIDE!!!!. They are on big time rabbit trails,twisting verses desperate for the elusive kill with their "TRIB CENTERED" theories.

I can anihilate these low info adherants,not that i am so smart,but that they have taken themselves out by omitting the greatest event yet to happen,and the heartbeat of heaven.

So learn the dna of the thing and go forward from the correct position.

 

[popeye]

Rapture implies that you will be snatched and taken I don't know where. Christians don't believe this.

Christians wait for the second coming of Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the New Earth and New Heaven.

Their faith and hope can be seen in the last article of the Nicene Creed where they say "I wait for the resurrection of the dead and the life of ages that is to come." (They don't say "I wait for the rapture and for the millennium")

I honestly don't know what you are talking when you say "pre-trib", "mid-trib", "post-trib", "literal millenium".

Rapture implies that you will be snatched and taken I don't know where. Christians don't believe this.

Christians wait for the second coming of Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the New Earth and New Heaven.

Wrong. So wrong.

Born again believers can differ on the rapture. It is not any indication of what you make it.

That is so cheap and erroneous.

 

[popeye]

Apostol2013;1872058]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. note

Originally Posted by p_rehbein
Googled "scriptures concerning the rapture,' and this is what I got......... wow......bunches!



1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


1 Thessalonians 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Matthew 24:31 - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 4:1 - After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 3:10 - Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Mark 13:32-37 - But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Read More...)

Mark 13:24-27 - But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (Read More...)

Matthew 24:36 - But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:3 - For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

John 14:3 - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Mark 13:32 - But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Matthew 24:42 - Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Revelation 19:11-21 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (Read More...)

Revelation 15:2 - And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13 - And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:3 - Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:1-17 - And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (Read More...)

Revelation 6:16 - And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 6:1-17 - And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. (Read More...)

Revelation 1:1-20 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:(Read More...)

James 1:12 - Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Hebrews 2:14 - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Titus 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:2 - For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 - And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Corinthians 14:33 - For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

John 14:2 - In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 21:36 - Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21:34-36 - And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. (Read More...)

Luke 21:16 - And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and [some] of you shall they cause to be put to death.

Luke 18:8 - I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Luke 12:40 - Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Mark 13:9 - But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Matthew 26:64 - Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 25:1-13 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (Read More...)

Matthew 24:27 - For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:22 - And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 13:39 - The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


(found here)


Bible Verses Ab

out The Rapture - OFFICIAL KING JAMES BIBLE ...
[/QUOTE]


Well,yeah,but that's just the bible man,....I mean it has to be wrong ,RIGHT???

 

[GuessWho]

but I can not deny that we will be caught up to Christ as He descends in the clouds, and that we will be instantly changed, and that we will follow Him down to the earth to conquer, judge, and restore.

Well if you can not deny then I am seriously curious to see/read a study about the eschatology of the early christianity that sustain christians believed they will be "caught up to Christ as He descends in the clouds" (literal rapture). I can only think about the gnostics having such hopes of escaping this world because they despised the matter. But jews or christians to have this desire...I doubt.

If you would have listened carefully and without preconceptions to N.T.Wright, you would have learned some interesting things about Saint Paul, about the historical context in which he lived and spoke, about his audience, about the way his audience perceived his discourse...

One thing that people should know about the Jews is that when they spoke about an eschatological event, they would use metaphors and analogies to show the greatness and glory of such event. If they said that "stars will fall from the sky", the Jews did not expect you to actually envisage stars falling from the sky and take it literally. They wanted to say that the event will be so great (even greater actually) just as it would be the event of stars falling from the sky.

The event of Christ' second coming is an ineffable event and only metaphors, analogies, hyperboles can give you more or less an idea of its magnitude. On the contrary, to say that Christ's second coming will be literally this and that is to actually diminish the greatness of the event.

When Paul says that Christ will return on clouds, Paul compares the return of Christ with the triumphal return of a roman emperor (do a research if you want to have an idea of what a triumphal return was in the Roman empire) only that the return of Christ will surpass in glory the return of a worldly emperor. And what will christians do when their King returns? Exactly what the romans did when their emperor would return in the city from the military campaign: they would go out and greet him, cheer him, be joyful that he returns victoriously. So, at Christ return we christians will go out and meet Him.

This is more or less what Paul wants to say. It is not the first time when the discourse of Paul is charged with political connotation. Even the concept of kingdom, the fact that Jesus is King (AND NOT CEASAR!), all these words and images have a strong political resonance in the head of his audience that the modern christian no longer perceive. Why would the christians be persecuted if they believed in a divinity who will snatch them from earth and take them after the rainbows?

 

[Ukorin]

Well if you can not deny then I am seriously curious to see/read a study about the eschatology of the early christianity that sustain christians believed they will be "caught up to Christ as He descends in the clouds" (literal rapture). I can only think about the gnostics having such hopes of escaping this world because they despised the matter. But jews or christians to have this desire...I doubt.

If you would have listened carefully and without preconceptions to N.T.Wright, you would have learned some interesting things about Saint Paul, about the historical context in which he lived and spoke, about his audience, about the way his audience perceived his discourse...

One thing that people should know about the Jews is that when they spoke about an eschatological event, they would use metaphors and analogies to show the greatness and glory of such event. If they said that "stars will fall from the sky", the Jews did not expect you to actually envisage stars falling from the sky and take it literally. They wanted to say that the event will be so great (even greater actually) just as it would be the event of stars falling from the sky.

The event of Christ' second coming is an ineffable event and only metaphors, analogies, hyperboles can give you more or less an idea of its magnitude. On the contrary, to say that Christ's second coming will be literally this and that is to actually diminish the greatness of the event.

When Paul says that Christ will return on clouds, Paul compares the return of Christ with the triumphal return of a roman emperor (do a research if you want to have an idea of what a triumphal return was in the Roman empire) only that the return of Christ will surpass in glory the return of a worldly emperor. And what will christians do when their King returns? Exactly what the romans did when their emperor would return in the city from the military campaign: they would go out and greet him, cheer him, be joyful that he returns victoriously. So, at Christ return we christians will go out and meet Him.

This is more or less what Paul wants to say. It is not the first time when the discourse of Paul is charged with political connotation. Even the concept of kingdom, the fact that Jesus is King (AND NOT CEASAR!), all these words and images have a strong political resonance in the head of his audience that the modern christian no longer perceive. Why would the christians be persecuted if they believed in a divinity who will snatch them from earth and take them after the rainbows?

The only book series I own from an early church father is Iranaeus "Against Heresies", and in book 5, chapter 29, he clearly describes his understanding of what the Word says on rapture. It is simple, but clear.

I also know that you are horribly mistaken to think that rapture itself is not a present theology in the early Church.
Many of them DID view the gathering on the Last Day as an "escape",
but even more of them looked forward to the Day as the Day when we are caught up to meet our Lord, whether alive or dead.
Most were post-trib rapture adherents, like Justin Martyr, but rapture all the same.


The kingdom is not of this world, and we are not to be politically motivated in this world. I am sad to hear that you have been deceived by the physical mindedness of dominion theology, but I cannot support your habit. As your brother in Christ, I ask you to go to the Word, and look for examples of what the "political" views are of Jesus and the Apostles.

Yes, many in the time of Constantine were fooled into thinking of Christianity as a moral governing body for the world, but such distractions caused the dark ages.

 

[Ukorin]

That is basically what pretrib teaches. .....caught up,instantly changed and then return with Jesus. Your error is that you are "gt centered" as opposed to what heaven centers us. Namely "bride/groom" centered.
I do not know any any pretribber that uses the term 'secret rapture'. That is one out of about 30 postrib adherant cheap shots.

This debate isn't between us on this thread. It's true that I don't hold to your view of the rapture,
but when faced with one who outright rejects the existence of rapture as a Biblical doctrine, and one believed by the early church,
We should band together, and save our small differences for a seperate thread.
I brought up the fine points of pretrib to show that "rapture" is nit an exclusively pretrib doctrine, nor a modern doctrine,
which is what GW seems to think.

 

[GuessWho]

Ukorin,

Your ignorance and lack of honesty are frustrating. So, I will try to be very short because this discussion is leading no where.

How did you read Irenaeus? I looked up ch. 29 in book V and no mention of a literal rapture. Of course it doesn't surprise me that I didn't find any mention because Irenaeus is considered saint in both Orthodox and Catholic Church. And since none of this church believe in a rapture (the belief in the rapture being an exclusively protestant matter and obsession) there would have been no way that Irenaeus have talked about a literal rapture.

And please, stop assuming what I believe about the kingdom because you are very far from the truth.

 

[Ukorin]

Ukorin,

Your ignorance and lack of honesty are frustrating. So, I will try to be very short because this discussion is leading no where.

How did you read Irenaeus? I looked up ch. 29 in book V and no mention of a literal rapture. Of course it doesn't surprise me that I didn't find any mention because Irenaeus is considered saint in both Orthodox and Catholic Church. And since none of this church believe in a rapture (the belief in the rapture being an exclusively protestant matter and obsession) there would have been no way that Irenaeus have talked about a literal rapture.

And please, stop assuming what I believe about the kingdom because you are very far from the truth.

Excuse me, but Iranaeus actually uses the very word "rapture" in his text, in Against Heresies book 5 chapter 29.
There is no denial of his use of the word and his context.

Actually, look up the beliefs of the Church fathers regarding eschatology, like Tertullian, Didache, Clement of Rome, the Shepherd of Hermas, Cyprian, and Hyppolytus.
Do they show an allegorical rapture, or a literal event?

Even Ephraim, the Orthodox father, was very strongly literal in his reading of rapture.
Your accusation of deceit and misinformation are vastly misplaced. The allegorical push of the 3rd and 4th century certainly tainted the Catholic and Orthodox views, but their perversions are well known and rejected here.

 

[Ukorin]

Catholics firmly believe in a literal rapture, just rarely using the term itself (ironically, as the word "rapture" comes from the Latin Vulgate originally).

I'm not sure where you got your information, but as per their statement of beliefs, Catholics do not deny a literal rapture, but affirm it.

 

[Ukorin]

If you believe in the literal coming of Christ, and a literal resurrection of the dead Saints, and a literal transformation of the living Saints (resurrection from earthy flesh to glorified body),
then you have just affirmed rapture.

To deny rapture, you have to affirm an allegorical return of Christ, and an allegorical Resurrection.
People really do have this view, but I hope you are not among them.

 

[GuessWho]

I won't continue a dialogue with someone whose ignorance is almost scary.

With each comment that you make you look even more foolish than you did before.

Of course that the word "rapture" itself appears in the Bible otherwise the illiterate christians who came up with this doctrine would not have used the word "rapture".