DeMystifying the Trinity

[Elin]

If Triunalism or Trinitarianism were so important, as a doctrine,
Our Lord Jesus would have spoken at length, during His lifetime and earthly ministry and that´s "barely" mentioned to back up the RCC´s teaching.

Salvation do not rest on that belief or understanding. If it is "revealed" I´m open to hear God, not the RCC teachings.

Who made that rule?

How much did Jesus speak at length regarding his sacrificial death which would save those who believed in him, the gospel and heart of Christianity?

1) Mat 12:40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

2) Mat 17:9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."

3) Mat 17:12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands."

4) Mat 17:22 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men,Mat 17:23 and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day." And they were greatly distressed.

5) Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

6) Mat 20:18 Behold! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and scribes. And they will condemn Him to death.

7) Mat 26:2 You know that the Passover is coming after two days, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified.

8) Mat 26:24 Indeed, the Son of Man goes, as it has been written about Him. But woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It were good for him if that man was never born.

9) Mat 26:45 Then Jesus went back to the followers and said, "Are you still sleeping and resting? The time has come for the Son of Man to be handed over to the control of sinful men.

Good Scriptures, but
saying nothing about it being a sacrifice of atonement to pay for the sin of those who believe in him, thus reconciling them to God in justification.

You asked abou this!

How much did Jesus speak at length regarding his sacrificial death which would save those who believed in him, the gospel and heart of Christianity?

Now you re talking about atonement...

Jesus never told them his death was a sacrifice,
which would be atonement for the sin of those who believe in him,
because there was no basis for understanding it at the time.

Jesus did not speak at length about his sacrifice of atonement, just as
he did not speak at length about a "Trinity."

Jesus' not speaking at length does not indicate lack of its truth, but
only lack of a basis for understanding it at the time.

 

[newbirth]

It would only be 'speculation' if you were unfamiliar with scripture.

You like quoting Acts.....remember to read of the Bereans who studied the scriptures daily to see if what was stated was true.








Your understanding of The Trinity is one of a straw-man.

You assemble your own version of it...and then you knock it down.

Each Person of The Trinity IS the One God...but each is not the other.

Its simple scriptural logic...

if each person is God and each is not the other...that is three Gods in any language....and scripture is clear ...there is only one God the Father

 

[newbirth]

Jesus never told them his death was a sacrifice,
which would be atonement for the sin of those who believe in him,
because there was no basis for understanding it at the time.

Jesus did not speak at length about his sacrifice of atonement, just as
he did not speak at length about a "Trinity."

Jesus' not speaking at length does not indicate lack of its truth, but
only lack of a basis for understanding it at the time.

Jesus spoke of his death ...it is prophesied in the scripture.....he never spoke of a trinity...

 

[Elin]

Nope. . .three persons in one divine being, God (Mt 28:19), who saves,

the Father decreeing salvation by forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77),
the Son effecting salvation on the cross (Ro 3:25), and
the Holy Spirit applying salvation in the new birth (Jn 3:5).

I hope God, Himself, assist my dully mind; because I don´t have problem understanding that formulae, but

the reason God, as Spirit, needed another spirit to assist or serve Him, since He is Spirit (or another dimension I´m far off).

Jesus, in his human nature, possessed a human spirit, as we do, and
in his divine nature, possessed a divine spirit, the Holy Spirit, as the Father does.

The spirit he sent back to God on the cross was his human spirit,
as the human spirit of the born again returns to God when we die.

His divine nature with its divine spirit, the Holy Spirit, did not die.

 

[Elin]

Jesus spoke of his death ...it is prophesied in the scripture.....
he never spoke of a trinity...

All humans die.
Jesus did not speak of his death as sacrificial atonement, because there was no basis for understanding it at that time.

And Jesus did reveal three divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the salvation of man,
(see post #5, here) although he never used the word "Trinity,"
uust as he never used the word "relationship" to describe our sonship to the Father,
but that doesn't mean we are not in a familial relationship with God.

 

[newbirth]

All humans die.
Jesus did not speak of his death as sacrificial atonement, because there was no basis for understanding it at that time.

And Jesus did reveal three divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the salvation of man,
(see post #5, here) although he never used the word "Trinity,"
uust as he never used the word "relationship" to describe our sonship to the Father,
but that doesn't mean we are not in a familial relationship with God.

do you believe the fullness if the Spirit was in Jesus before he was baptised??? do you believe God was in Jesus delivering the world before his baptism???Do you think the Word just came into existence when Jesus was born???
Do you know what this scripture means???
Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

 

[Elin]

All humans die.
Jesus did not speak of his death as sacrificial atonement, because there was no basis for understanding it at that time.

And Jesus did reveal three divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the salvation of man,
(see post #5, here) although he never used the word "Trinity,"
uust as he never used the word "relationship" to describe our sonship to the Father,
but that doesn't mean we are not in a familial relationship with God.

do you believe the fullness if the Spirit was in Jesus before he was baptised???
do you believe God was in Jesus delivering the world before his baptism???
Do you think the Word just came into existence when Jesus was born???
Do you know what this scripture means???
Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Yes,
I believe Jesus was God before his baptism,
no, the Incarnate Word came into existence in the womb before he was born,
yes.

 

[newbirth]

Yes,
I believe Jesus was God before his baptism,
no, the Incarnate Word came into existence in the womb before he was born,
yes.

then explain Heb 10:5
and while you are at it ...tell us when did Christ ministry begin?

 

[Elin]

do you believe the fullness if the Spirit was in Jesus before he was baptised???
do you believe God was in Jesus delivering the world before his baptism???
Do you think the Word just came into existence when Jesus was born???
Do you know what this scripture means???
Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Yes,
I believe Jesus was God before his baptism,
no, the Incarnate Word came into existence in the womb before he was born,
yes.

then explain Heb 10:5

Well, first of all, I note this was written after the death of Christ.

It is not something Christ taught in his ministry.

Secondly, in the context of Jesus' sacrifice once for all (9:26), Heb 10:5 is presenting the facts that
1) the animal sacrifices did not remit sin, they only covered it (Ro 4:7),
2) the words of Christ in Heb 10:5-7 are the words of Ps 40:6-8 expressing
Christ's coming to earth in obedient submission to the Father's will,
which submissive obedience (to death on the cross) replaced the Mosaic sacrifices (v.7).

and while you are at it ...tell us when did Christ ministry begin?

Christ began his public preaching after John the Baptist, his forerunner, was silenced in prison.
He was anointed for his ministry of priestly work (Ac 10:38) in the washing of his baptism,
just as the Levitical priests were required to be washed at their ordination (Ex 40:12)
At that baptism the Spirit rested on Jesus and equipped his human spirit with the necessary gifts.

Note that he came up out of the water without pausing to confess sin, heaven opened,
and he saw the glory and joy set before him for which he endured the cross and scorned
its shame (Heb 12:2).

 

[newbirth]

Well, first of all, I note this was written after the death of Christ.

It is not something Christ taught in his ministry.

Secondly, in the context of Jesus' sacrifice once for all (9:26), Heb 10:5 is presenting the facts that
1) the animal sacrifices did not remit sin, they only covered it (Ro 4:7),
2) the words of Christ in Heb 10:5-7 are the words of Ps 40:6-8 expressing
Christ's coming to earth in obedient submission to the Father's will,
which submissive obedience (to death on the cross) replaced the Mosaic sacrifices (v.7).


Christ began his public preaching after John the Baptist, his forerunner, was silenced in prison.
He was anointed for his ministry of priestly work (Ac 10:38) in the washing of his baptism,
just as the Levitical priests were required to be washed at their ordination (Ex 40:12)
At that baptism the Spirit rested on Jesus and equipped his human spirit with the necessary gifts.

Note that he came up out of the water without pausing to confess sin, heaven opened,
and he saw the glory and joy set before him for which he endured the cross and scorned
its shame (Heb 12:2).

the HS does not equip the human spirit...the human spirit must follow the HS
Matthew 4:1

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Luke 4:1
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,




Matthew 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

maybe this will shed some light....
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 2:8-10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:



you do not understand a human body was prepared for the Word/Spirit of God.... the same Word/Spirit that was with God in the beginning ...He became the firstborn of many brethren.....that is why the body was born just as we were....in the flesh...and He was also reborn in the Spirit at baptism....so in order for us to be his brethren we must also be reborn of the Spirit the same way he was at baptism....it cannot be different...we must have the same birth pattern like him....one with natural parents and one of water and the Holy Spirit....

 

[Bowman]

I always am in awe when I see those speak with such authority in context to the GodHead which we are to do so reverently and approach with the understanding it is a Mystery that we cannot fully understand. why? because God is to Big and to powerful for our finite minds to know we only know what HE the Spirit of God teaches us through rev gen/ special and illumination from relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. we error when we think we can fully explain the Godhead when they cannot but think they can. the Word trinity is not even in the bible because it is a Concept about the Godhead which is not fully understood.

Its right next to the word 'monad'....

 

[Bowman]

Since ancient never knew such logic, I could be as lost as they were, because they never read the Gospel as Scriptue, but only "Listen Israel..."

Well! Thanks for your kind sharing of thought.

The ancients didn't have to read scripture because God visited them in person.

 

[Bowman]

Deal with it...

if each person is God and each is not the other...that is three Gods in any language....

No.

Each is the One God.

Not three gods...you pagan...

and scripture is clear ...there is only one God the Father

There is only One true God...Jesus Christ...

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)

 

[newbirth]

Re: Deal with it...

No.

Each is the One God.

Not three gods...you pagan...





There is only One true God...Jesus Christ...

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)

if each is the one God...when Father is god...what are son and spirit.....are they not gods also....or do the lose their godship?
so when Jesus walked the earth.. your trinity had a god in heaven...two on earth ...all on business...each of them being god...how many gods are there..??? or is it when one is god the others are not gods ...just persons...
even the scripture you post denies your trinity...

it shows the one true God...and Christ is in the one true God and we are in Christ....you are reading scripture through your own eyes and understanding

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal.

 

[CS1]

Re: Deal with it...

if each is the one God...when Father is god...what are son and spirit.....are they not gods also....or do the lose their godship?
so when Jesus walked the earth.. your trinity had a god in heaven...two on earth ...all on business...each of them being god...how many gods are there..??? or is it when one is god the others are not gods ...just persons...
even the scripture you post denies your trinity...

it shows the one true God...and Christ is in the one true God and we are in Christ....you are reading scripture through your own eyes and understanding

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal.

first the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. It is a concept. which human reasoning cannot explain or understand the GodHead is a Mystery. the reason why it is so hard too is because the bible tells us that Jesus has always existed before the incarnation. HE is Eternal. God the Father the Creator of all thing is too eternal the Holy Spirit is also eternal because we see in the bible Gen chapter one the Personification and title of the Spirt of God give which bring individuality and personality to who the Holy Spirit is. No one can explain How this is and take what The Bible says that God is ONE. you would have to believe that Jesus was a created being and when HE was praying to the father HE was praying to the father or HE is God and HE was praying to Him-self. in each case the Bible does not support those positions. What we do know is the Bible shows us the working of all Three Coe -equal, Coe-Eternal, and Coe-Divine. we see this IN Gen 1, John 1, we see this at the baptize of Jesus . We Here jesus speak of this in John 14, 16 chp's. so reading what you have posted you have to deal with what Jesus said in context to the Father, and The Comforter. it is not I who says the God head is a Mystery but the Bible is clear we cannot fully know ALLL about God in this side of Glory if you will. I will not attack your positions but you are not fully right nor fully wrong as each of us must approach the Godhead with Fear= Reverence and respect when speaking about HIS Divine nature .

 

[newbirth]

Re: Deal with it...

first the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. It is a concept. which human reasoning cannot explain or understand the GodHead is a Mystery. the reason why it is so hard too is because the bible tells us that Jesus has always existed before the incarnation. HE is Eternal. God the Father the Creator of all thing is too eternal the Holy Spirit is also eternal because we see in the bible Gen chapter one the Personification and title of the Spirt of God give which bring individuality and personality to who the Holy Spirit is. No one can explain How this is and take what The Bible says that God is ONE. you would have to believe that Jesus was a created being and when HE was praying to the father HE was praying to the father or HE is God and HE was praying to Him-self. in each case the Bible does not support those positions. What we do know is the Bible shows us the working of all Three Coe -equal, Coe-Eternal, and Coe-Divine. we see this IN Gen 1, John 1, we see this at the baptize of Jesus . We Here jesus speak of this in John 14, 16 chp's. so reading what you have posted you have to deal with what Jesus said in context to the Father, and The Comforter. it is not I who says the God head is a Mystery but the Bible is clear we cannot fully know ALLL about God in this side of Glory if you will. I will not attack your positions but you are not fully right nor fully wrong as each of us must approach the Godhead with Fear= Reverence and respect when speaking about HIS Divine nature .

the reason it is not in the scripture is because it is a false concept...
the scripture is also clear...not everyone have the knowledge of The one God and the one Lord...

1 Corinthians 8:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.



the scripture says God is one you also say he is one but he is three....that is like if I say it is a dog and you say yes it is a dog but it is a cat...

 

[Reformed_Baptist]

Don't you think it at least a little bit intriguing that before we come to Deut. 6:4 we have numerous evidences that there are more then one person who is God?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God is elohim (plural) yet he is being spoken of in the singular

In v2 the Spirit of God is identified, and in v3 we have God speaking - so that is at least two persons identified as this one God already!

Moving on we come to v26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Here God is speaking of himself in the plural.

As for there being no concept of the Son in the OT - well that is hogwash, juts look at Psalm 2

The NT writers had no trouble with the trinity because they found it throughout their Old Testament scriptures!

 

[CS1]

Re: Deal with it...

the reason it is not in the scripture is because it is a false concept...
the scripture is also clear...not everyone have the knowledge of The one God and the one Lord...

1 Corinthians 8:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
[SUP]7[/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.



the scripture says God is one you also say he is one but he is three....that is like if I say it is a dog and you say yes it is a dog but it is a cat...

well Yes HE is one not Because I said so but the bible says so; as it does that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and if you can explain how each have very distinct attributes and Personification and still be only ONE. Now your statement "that is like if I say it is a dog and you say yes it is a dog but it is a cat..."

that is your human reasoning I never said a dog is a cat ok. The Bible says God the Father, God the Son, and God The Holy Ghost singular. Jesus spoke of it, The Voice out of heaven Spoke of it, and the Holy Spirit Inspired it. God, the Word and the Holy Spirit. Found ijn Gen chp 1 John chp1 and throughout the gospels you used only a few verse out of context too I might add to prove your only view, ok you can do that but it does not mean you are correct. You don't know all about the Godhead is I do not. So why are you trying to prove you right when you do not know?

 

[newbirth]

Re: Deal with it...

well Yes HE is one not Because I said so but the bible says so; as it does that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and if you can explain how each have very distinct attributes and Personification and still be only ONE. Now your statement "that is like if I say it is a dog and you say yes it is a dog but it is a cat..."

that is your human reasoning I never said a dog is a cat ok. The Bible says God the Father, God the Son, and God The Holy Ghost singular. Jesus spoke of it, The Voice out of heaven Spoke of it, and the Holy Spirit Inspired it. God, the Word and the Holy Spirit. Found ijn Gen chp 1 John chp1 and throughout the gospels you used only a few verse out of context too I might add to prove your only view, ok you can do that but it does not mean you are correct. You don't know all about the Godhead is I do not. So why are you trying to prove you right when you do not know?

the scripture says ...
1 Corinthians 8:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
[SUP]7[/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

that is what I know and am assured as per the writings of the apostles in their epistles...all salutations are from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ...can you deny that???? no epistle is on behalf of Father Son and Holy Ghost....why is that???? those few verses I post are supported throughout scripture...take for example there is a scripture that says baptise them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost...but nowhere in scripture does the apostles do it that way....ask yourself the question ...why??? it is either they disobeyed a direct instruction or that instruction was doctored...you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out...you see my friend there is one greater than the written word....He is the living Word and while some may be scared to trust him over the written word I am not....men can change writings but they cannot change the living God...

 

[CS1]

Don't you think it at least a little bit intriguing that before we come to Deut. 6:4 we have numerous evidences that there are more then one person who is God?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God is elohim (plural) yet he is being spoken of in the singular

In v2 the Spirit of God is identified, and in v3 we have God speaking - so that is at least two persons identified as this one God already!

Moving on we come to v26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Here God is speaking of himself in the plural.

As for there being no concept of the Son in the OT - well that is hogwash, juts look at Psalm 2

The NT writers had no trouble with the trinity because they found it throughout their Old Testament scriptures!

I like your Q? reformed but i think it is a little out of Context please give me one moment :

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God is elohim (plural) yet he is being spoken of in the singular

The elohim Here is because of mans limited understanding of God in the context of the Book of Beginnings. We see elohim which can mean gods or angel if not kept in context how used in the Passage. as we move through the bible from gen 1 God reveals more of who HE is to man and we see man come to not only know HIM as Elohim but :

• El Shaddai (Lord God Almighty)
• El Elyon (The Most High God)
• Adonai (Lord, Master)
• Yahweh (Lord, Jehovah)
• Jehovah Nissi (The Lord My Banner)
• Jehovah-Raah (The Lord My Shepherd)
• Jehovah Rapha (The Lord That Heals)
• Jehovah Shammah (The Lord Is There)
• Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)
• Jehovah Mekoddishkem (The Lord Who Sanctifies You)
• El Olam (The Everlasting God)
• Elohim (God)
• Qanna (Jealous)
• Jehovah Jireh (The Lord Will Provide)
• Jehovah Shalom (The Lord Is Peace)
• Jehovah Sabaoth (The Lord of Hosts)

all of these names man was allowed to see or come to know. Very Personal characteristic on the One true God without this revaluation God from man ability to know HIM would only be Elohim = god or a god but we know HIM as the ONE True God
Your use of the " let US make man" v 26 of gen is hard to know what it is saying until you understand Christ and the Holy Spirit which I think you did a good job of bring up in your point. Good Job