DeMystifying the Trinity

CS1 · Jan 30, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

the scripture says ...
1 Corinthians 8:5-7King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[SUP]6[/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
[SUP]7[/SUP]Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

that is what I know and am assured as per the writings of the apostles in their epistles...all salutations are from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ...can you deny that???? no epistle is on behalf of Father Son and Holy Ghost....why is that???? those few verses I post are supported throughout scripture...take for example there is a scripture that says baptise them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost...but nowhere in scripture does the apostles do it that way....ask yourself the question ...why??? it is either they disobeyed a direct instruction or that instruction was doctored...you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out...you see my friend there is one greater than the written word....He is the living Word and while some may be scared to trust him over the written word I am not....men can change writings but they cannot change the living God...

I find it interesting you can accept you are in Christ and yet still be you but cannot understand how Christ can be in the Father and still BE HIM? you point is incorrect because you take the verse out of context while engorging what Jesus said.

newbirth · Jan 30, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

CS1 said:

what is your view of the context of the verse???? you simply do not understand....the word of God (Christ came out from God)
John 16:27
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
John 1:1-3King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The same was in the beginning with God.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

you are trying to force a trinity into all those scenarios ....there is none...it is just God and his Son who is also the Word of God...the same Word that was made flesh...the same one who dwells in us as the HS....

Elin · Jan 30, 2015

newbirth said:

Agreed. . .but he did not speak of his sacrificial atonement (propitiation).

Agreed. . .but he did present three divine agents in the salvation of man.

1) Redemption is a function of divinity.
The NT shows three separate divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the work of redemption/salvation:

a) Father, Son and Holy Spirit at its beginning (Lk 1:35), the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry
(Mt 3:16-17),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the Father's work of redemption through the son [Ac 2:38-39; Ro 8 (v.26); 1Co 12:4-13 (vv.4-6); Eph 1:3-14 (v.14), 2:13-22 (v.18), 2Th 2:13; 1Pe 1:2];

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:1-15 (vv.5,14-15).

2) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together as the triune name of God.
a) Note in Mt 28:13 that Jesus said this was the name (singular) of the God with whom we enter into relationship.

b) Paul used all three interchangeably in 1Co 12:4-6,
they are linked together in prayer for divine blessing in 2Co 13:14, and
they are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.

3) The close connection in the NT between Father, Son and Holy Spirit show a co-equal relationship:
Paul says "the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit" (2Co 3:16-18), meaning the Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead.
Jesus not only works in men through the Spirit, but the Son and Spirit are co-equal divine beings.
To express that Christ worked through Paul, he would never say, "The Lord is Paul."
So Paul bears witness to the Spirit's place in the Godhead.

4) The NT shows the Holy Spirit to be a person.
It refers to him with the personal pronouns he, him, his, with personal titles and with personal functions.
The NT shows him acting as a person: speaking (Ac 8:29), deciding (Ac 15:28), forbidding (Ac 16:7), testifying (Ac 5:32), sending out missionaries (Ac 13:14), interceding (Ro 8:26-27).

5) To believe God is Three-In-One is not to violate the word of the OT.
The OT forbid worship of false gods--gods other than, apart from or outside YHWH.
The Son and Holy Spirit are not other than, apart from or outside YHWH any more than his Word (Jn 1:1, 14, 18) or his breath are other than, part from or outside YHWH (Ge 1:2; Job 26:13, 32:8, 33:4, 34:14-15; Ps 33:6).

That YHWH is Three-In-One is the overwhelming testimony of the gospel and the NT.

CS1 · Jan 30, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

newbirth said:

No I am not trying to force anything

again the Word trinity is not in the bible. Godhead is are you trying to tell me you understand all there is to know about the Godhead? and that you understand how Jesus can pray to Himself in the garden and Speak in third person instead of Jesus saying I or ME? and HE did this to what confuse us? or is it possible you and I reall y don't fully kn ow all about the GodHead?

Elin · Jan 30, 2015

newbirth said:

You are not familiar with the gifts from the Holy Spirit to equip the body of Christ for service
(1Co 12:8-10, 28-31; Eph 4:7, 11-12)?

There are a lot of serious errors in this post.

Yes, Jesus was always filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb (Lk 1:15, 4:1, 14, 18, 10:21).

Yes, heaven opened, and he saw the glory and joy set before him for which he endured the cross
and scorned its shame (Heb 12:2).

And there we have the three divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit inaugurating our redemption.

The firstborn of many brethren (Ro 8:29) is firstborn from among the dead in the resurrection (Col 1:18; 1Co 15:20),
not firstborn of those who are born again, raised from spiritual death into eternal life through faith by grace.

Jesus was "filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." (Lk 1:15)

The "rebirth" of Jn 3:5 is from spiritual death (no Holy Spirit life in one's spirit) as a result of Adam's sin.
Jesus did not inherit spiritual death from Adam, because Adam was not his father, God is his father.

Therefore, Jesus was not reborn (raised) from spiritual death into eternal life.
Jesus is eternal life. (Jn 5:26, 11:25, 14:6).

Nope. . .

The Spirit is Jesus' spirit, as well as the Father's spirit (Jn 15:26; Ac 16:7; Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6; Php 1:19; 1Pe 1:11).
Jesus is the Spirit (2Co 3:17, 18).

Jesus did not inherit spiritual death from Adam, he was born with the Spirit of God as his own Spirit,
spiritual rebirth into eternal life was impossible. . .Jesus is eternal life (Jn 5:26, 11:25, 14:6).

newbirth · Jan 30, 2015

Elin said:

don't be a hypocrite you know that is not what you meant...you were saying the HS equipping Christ or ministry

says you

your first scripture is about John the baptist....and those that follow are after Jesus was baptised....

are you denying the HS came into him???

because that is what you want to see

take your time and understand the scripture...

that is John the baptist as I indicated before

was Jesus baptised and received the Holy Ghost? are we not to do the same to enter into the kingdom of God

Nope. . .

well you got that right

so Jesus did not receive the HS at baptism????what Spirit was seen coming down on him and remaining???

Bowman · Jan 31, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

newbirth said:

Each is simultaneously the One God, per scripture.

Jesus is the True God, per scripture.

You can't change Greek grammar.

Bowman · Jan 31, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

CS1 said:

The word 'Trinity' is an epithet which details how the Creator has chosen to reveal Himself in the sum total of scripture.

Those who study scripture can indeed understand His Triune nature....otherwise, He would not have chosen to reveal Himself in this fashion, over and over, and over again.

But without faith it is impossible to please God. For it is right that the one drawing near to God should believe that He is, and that He becomes a rewarder to the ones seeking Him out. (Hebrews 11.6)

Reformed_Baptist · Jan 31, 2015

2 John 1:8-9 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

newbirth · Jan 31, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

Bowman said:

that is your opinion

you cannot understand.....we are in the true One ,in His Son....meaning the Son is in the true One...the only way we can be in God is to be in Christ...There is one God the Father and we go to the One God in His Son Jesus Christ our Lord...who is the Word/Spirit of God made flesh...

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal.

newbirth · Jan 31, 2015

Reformed_Baptist said:

Thank you for a very inspiring scripture....and nowhere does it indicate we have a trinity...if we abide in the doctrine Christ we have both the Father and the Son...those who abide in the doctrine of trinity have nothing...

Bowman · Jan 31, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

newbirth said:

Its scriptural fact.

But...when it comes to discussing scripture, you go silent.

All you can do is 'hit-n-run'...

Jesus IS God on the merits of the established rules of Greek grammar, all by itself, independent of your slavishly repeated meritless assertions.

According to YOUR logic, The Father is The Son.

e has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal.

Click to expand...

It does not matter how you try to highlight this verse....it still says that Jesus Christ IS the true God.

What part of this is escaping your intellect, today....?

Elin · Jan 31, 2015

newbirth said:

Yes, I was referring to the Holy Spirit equipping Jesus' human spirit, which the Holy Spirit indwells, for ministry.

I stand corrected.

Lk 1:17 is about John the Baptist.

And if John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from birth, Jesus would not be the same?

Remember, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus divine nature, as well as the Father's spirit
(Jn 15:26; Ac 16:7; Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6; Php 1:19; 1Pe 1:11).
And Jesus is the Spirit (2Co 3:17, 18).
At no time and in no way was Jesus ever without the Holy Spirit.

If you are saying the Holy Spirit did not indwell his human spirit until that time, yes I am denying what you say.
If you are saying Jesus is not the Holy Spirit (2Co 3:17, 18), yes I am denying what you say.

'Tis not me, but Scriptures which present Father, Son and Holy Spirit at Jesus' baptism by John.

It would be more helpful if you showed where "firstborn" is ever stated of Christ
to mean from among the dead in spirit (no Holy Spirit life); i.e. the unregenerate,
as it is stated multiple times to mean from among the dead in the resurrection.

It would also be more helpful if you explained the meaning of the Scriptures in post #203, above.

Your use of "firstborn from among the dead" to mean regeneration is not stated anywhere in the NT.

Jesus had the Holy Spirit from the beginning of his life,
just as we have the Holy Spirit from the beginning of our eternal life (the new birth).
At his baptism, the Holy Spirit equipped Jesus' human spirit for his ministry.

Not for the first time.
Jesus is eternal life (Jn 5:26, 11:25, 14:6).
Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

How can eternal life and the Holy Spirit himself ever be without the Holy Spirit?
That is absurd.

He received in his human spirit an equipping for his mininistry.

CS1 · Jan 31, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

newbirth said:

again you used the verse out of Context. and are you on the God head or are you now moving to baptism?

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

[SUP]6[/SUP]But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
you use this verse a lot and out of context are you suggesting the God head is in this verse "For though there be that are called gods," ? are you suggesting that those who see the Godhead as three but yet still one error?

the very verse you used speak of God as one and Jesus as One LOL but yet in this very verse the are distinctly Identified by different titles and attributes but yet still one .

So you are going to say you know everything about the Godhead when you have an issue with the grammatical application of the text the whole chapter lol you don't know all. but you are trying to say you do.

CS1 · Jan 31, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

Originally Posted by CS1

first the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. It is a concept. which human reasoning cannot explain or understand the GodHead is a Mystery. the reason why it so hard too; is because the bible tells us Jesus has always existed before the incarnation. HE is Eternal. God the Father the Creator of all thing is too eternal, the Holy Spirit is also eternal because we see in the bible Gen chapter one the Personification and title of the Spirt of God give which bring individuality and personality to who the Holy Spirit is. No one can explain How this is and take what The Bible says that God is ONE. you would have to believe that Jesus was a created being and when HE was praying to the father HE was praying to the father or HE is God and HE was praying to Him-self. in each case the Bible does not support those positions. What we do know is the Bible shows us the working of all Three Coe -equal, Coe-Eternal, and Coe-Divine. we see this IN Gen 1, John 1, we see this at the baptize of Jesus . We Here jesus speak of this in John 14, 16 chp's. so reading what you have posted you have to deal with what Jesus said in context to the Father, and The Comforter. it is not I who says the God head is a Mystery but the Bible is clear we cannot fully know ALLL about God in this side of Glory if you will. I will not attack your positions but you are not fully right nor fully wrong as each of us must approach the Godhead with Fear= Reverence and respect when speaking about HIS Divine nature .

ISeeYou · Jan 31, 2015

Couldnt the example in Elijah (as John) and Elisha (who come after) be used to explain a couple of things concerning the portion of the Spirit Christ received when Baptized?

Because we know Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, but that John was filled in the womb of his mother with the Holy Ghost right?

For example, if we look there,

Elisha followed after Elijah who received a double portion of the Spirit of Elijah (which Spirit and power John was to go forth in Luke 1:17)

And Jesus said, For all the prophets and the law prophesied "until John"

Even as it says,

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things

Even as John being the Elijah for to come.

Who was filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb Luke 1:15

Luke 1:15... And (he) shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost , even from his mother's womb.

This would be the Spirit and power of Elijah (and in respects to turning hearts)

So of John (Jesus said)

If ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

As Jesus said again,

For all the prophets and the law prophesied "until John"

Who would prepared the way before Him

And so likewise Jesus says, it "becometh us" to fulfil all righteousness.

Speaking of these two together (in these things).

As John is before Jesus (even the Elijah for to come)

Elijah is before Elisha in the following picture where maybe this can be seen a bit better

And it came to pass, when they were gone over,

that Elijah said unto Elisha,

Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee.

And Elisha (who follows after Elijah) says

I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

And of John we know...

He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

And of Jesus Christ

He was conceived of the Holy Ghost

And so its right there (specifically so) John forbids Jesus

But John forbad him, saying,

I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

And, Jesus said

"Suffer it for now" in that it behooveth us (both) in fulfilling all righteousness
(for John came in the way of righteousness)

"and then" John did suffer Him

Because Isaiah 61:1 also speaks of the Spirit of the LORD being upon him to begin his ministry

And at Jesus beginnings coming to John (who bear record of him)

Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:

And, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he (John) saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove,and lighting upon him: (the sign given to John)

And likewise ...

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

I just thought that double portion in the picture itself between Elijah and Elisha spoke a little to that.

If not, no worries its neither here nor there then, I thought it was helpful

Bowman · Jan 31, 2015

Re: Deal with it...

CS1 said:

Originally Posted by CS1

first the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. It is a concept. which human reasoning cannot explain or understand the GodHead is a Mystery. the reason why it so hard too; is because the bible tells us Jesus has always existed before the incarnation. HE is Eternal. God the Father the Creator of all thing is too eternal, the Holy Spirit is also eternal because we see in the bible Gen chapter one the Personification and title of the Spirt of God give which bring individuality and personality to who the Holy Spirit is. No one can explain How this is and take what The Bible says that God is ONE. you would have to believe that Jesus was a created being and when HE was praying to the father HE was praying to the father or HE is God and HE was praying to Him-self. in each case the Bible does not support those positions. What we do know is the Bible shows us the working of all Three Coe -equal, Coe-Eternal, and Coe-Divine. we see this IN Gen 1, John 1, we see this at the baptize of Jesus . We Here jesus speak of this in John 14, 16 chp's. so reading what you have posted you have to deal with what Jesus said in context to the Father, and The Comforter. it is not I who says the God head is a Mystery but the Bible is clear we cannot fully know ALLL about God in this side of Glory if you will. I will not attack your positions but you are not fully right nor fully wrong as each of us must approach the Godhead with Fear= Reverence and respect when speaking about HIS Divine nature .

Your examples do not make sense...

God The Son praying to God The Father in no way diminishes His divinity, nor is it confusing...as there are other Biblical passages where it is reversed.

That is why we have the entire Holy Bible with which to understand The Triune God.

Giving up is NOT an option...

newbirth · Jan 31, 2015

Elin said:

I am telling you the Word/Spirit of God entered the body of the man Christ in the form of a Dove at baptism....it was only after baptism was he taken into the wilderness to be tempted...it was only after baptism did he start calling disciples...it was only after baptism did he start preaching...
Ephesians 1:23
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Colossians 1:19
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

anyone can make an error...

many prophets were fill with the HS....Jesus said there was none born of woman greater than John...but the least in the kingdom is greater than John....and you compare John with our Lord...???
Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

You don't understand a flesh body was prepared for the Word/Spirit of God

well I showed you where the HS came and abode in him....so you are denying scripture...
John 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

never said or implied...

you see what you want to see....you now said Jesus is the HS...he is also the Son...so what did you really see at his baptism?

actually you are right...but not he way you think...God is his father so it is obvious...but that does not negate he received the fullness at baptism

Jesus flesh was born like any other human

maybe now you would understand that the body that was born was just a house for the eternal Spirit....

He received in his human body the eternal spirit...

Elin · Jan 31, 2015

newbirth said:

If you are saying Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit before his baptism, that is an absurdity.
The NT states that Jesus is the Spirit. (2Co 3:17, 18).

If I am greater than John because of my rebirth into eternal life,
would not Jesus, who is eternal life (Jn 5:26, 11:25, 14:6) have to be the same?

And if John was filled with the Holy Spirit from birth,
would not Jesus have to be at least the same?

And how would a flesh body be for the Spirit of God if the Spirit of God is not even there?

My flesh body was not for the Spirit of God, it was for eternal death, until the Holy Spirit
entered my spirit in rebirth.

Jesus' flesh body was not for the Spirit of God unless it was there.

I'm not talking about Jesus' flesh, I'm talking about his human spirit.

The spirit of every son of fallen Adam is born spiritually dead (no Holy Spirit eternal life)
and remains so until it is reborn.
Jesus was not born of fallen Adam, he is the Son of God.
His human spirit was never in spiritual death (no Holy Spirit eternal life).

Jesus is the Spirit (2Co 3:17, 18).
Jesus is eternal life (Jn 5:26, 11:25, 14:6).
He is never without them.

How can you be both eternal life and the Holy Spirit and be without them?
This is absurd.

It would be more helpful if you showed where "firstborn" is ever stated of Christ
to mean from among the dead in spirit (no Holy Spirit life); i.e. the unregenerate,
as it is stated multiple times to mean from among the dead in the resurrection.

It would also be more helpful if you explained the meaning of the Scriptures in post #203, above.

Your use of "firstborn from among the dead" to mean regeneration of Jesus is not stated anywhere in the NT.

Bowman · Feb 1, 2015

newbirth said:

The text does NOT tell us that!

It informs the reader that the Holy Spirit manifested in the flesh of a dove....NOT of Jesus.

You keep trying to make The Holy Spirit into The Son.....but scripture clearly, and irrefutably, states that each is NOT the other.

Wake.

Up.

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