Can I ask you. Is Paul speaking in Rom 7:14-25 of his life prior to becoming a Christian, or of his life as a Christian?
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Can I ask you. Is Paul speaking in Rom 7:14-25 of his life prior to becoming a Christian, or of his life as a Christian?
Is this to me?
Yes I believe he is talking about following the Messiah and His will to do right, but his struggles with sin while in the flesh, which I think we all have, I know I do. However just because I not perfect I dont reject everything. Only in denial is that even remotely ideal. How would that work in any facet of life, silly example, "honey I do love you as my wife but you know sometimes my eye wanders so, you know, I will just do anything I want, and its ok because I still love you." No that does not work.
Paul shows his desire to do right and joy in it and has desire to not sin and his pain when he does in Romans....
Romans 7:7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.
12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.
13 Did that which is righteous, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.
16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous.
17 As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.
22 For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man;
23 But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members.
25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.
Think about this:
Romans 7:14 "For we know that the Law is spiritual..."
yet if you seek to obey it your called not Spiritual by those who will not even hear His Law....
Romans 8:5-8 (ESV), "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Think about this: "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law"
Yet Im told here by many, it carnal to submit to His Law....
now I know anyone can run and find a verse and twist it into rejecting His Law, but to what gain? Messiah says the Law will not pass, He says to follow it and to teach it, I am a disciple of the Messiah....
Revelation 12:17
New American Standard Bible
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
the dragon was enraged...went off to make war with.... who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus
..........
OK, so you believe Paul, who has been a Christian over twenty years when he wrotre romans lives his Christian life as follows:
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. rom 7:14
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. v15
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. v18
or I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. v19
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me v22
Now I am reading comments on this debate where people are saying God's commands are not burdensome (or hard to obey) Christians are pure and therefore do not sin. Paul is not in that place in rom 7:14:25. I can only assume that some of you believe you sin far less than the Apostle Paul did as a mature Christian. That or you are not being entirely honest
K
keeth
Guest
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Many argue whether Paul is speaking of himself when unconverted or when converted in this chapter. I say it does not matter. The unconverted under conviction of sin will go through the process described by Paul in this chapter. So will the converted. The sin problem is and must be confronted by both. The answer to the dilemma for both is the same.
Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The converted and unconverted alike must struggle with sin. The answer and solution is always the same. The one who accepts the answer, and submits to this truth, is saved. This process does not end when one is saved. the battle with self will have to be fought again and again this side of heaven.
Mr 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
The above is not a one time experience, it is a daily experience.
It matters very much. It is interesting that the main people in this debate who most demand obedience to the law to attain Heaven believe Paul is speaking of his time as a Christian. I do not believe he is. But the power of the Gospel is in grace, not in effect inferring you have a righteousness to attain Heaven under law, which is what is in effect being stated
The person that is not in touch with the Spirit of Yah has no problem with their sin, rolls right off their back.... however the man that understands the Law and is walking with the Spirit of Yah knows when they error, it is bothersome and that person will pray, ask for mercy and seek to change. (now I know there is a million "levels" in between this, but have to generalize to get point across) Paul seemingly was a man who walked in the Spirit and knew what was expected of Him, most that read Paul's writings and say "yay no rules!!!!" are not in any manner like Paul....
I will post these for illustration:
Romans 2:15, "Since they show that the requirements of the Law are written in their hearts, their conscience also bears witness, and their thoughts now accuse or else try to excuse them."
626 - apologeomai
apologeomai: to give an account of oneself, hence to defend oneself
Original Word: ἀπολογέομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apologeomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol-og-eh'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I give a defense, defend myself
Definition: I give a defense, defend myself (especially in a law court): it can take an object of what is said in defense.
yes they excuse themselves, that is self sanctification...
1 Timothy 4:1-2, "Now the Spirit speaks very plainly, that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons Speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared as with a hot iron."
Yahdah 1:4, "For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."
Titus 1:16, "They profess that they know Yahweh, but by their works they deny Him--being abominable, disobedient, and to every righteous work, reprobate."
Im not accusing you or anyone, for I will be the first to say I am a sinful man, but I know in my heart what is right and wrong and I cross check my heart with His Spirit and His Spirit written.... He has changed me and continues to change me, when I rejected His Standard I thought I was very sinless, I know better now.
I appreciate your honesty. I assume you do not believe you obey God's laws better than Paul did in his description of Rom 7:14-25. For you believe Paul is speaking as a mature Christian where his failure to obey, as described in those verses is mentioned
I DO NOT believe Paul is speaking as a mature Christian, but of his life as a Pharisee and the result of living under a law of righteousness. The power to live an ever holier life is in grace-not obedience to the law.
If Paul is speaking as a mature Christian in those verses, grace-the cross lacks power, it does not. If Paul is speaking as a mature Christian in those verses he is demanding of others what he cannot attain to in his own life. I do not for one moment accept that is the Paul of the bible.
I don't say or mean this unkindly, but if you in effect live under a righteousness of obedience to the law-which I believe you do, you must believe Paul is speaking of his life as a Christian, for it will be a mirror image of your own life
has paul been instructed to what modern man call the soul and how the mind works. ie taste, touch, etc in side humans. i feel sick, i feel happy, i feel sad. i feel hungry. etc.they are built into humans as warning 6 The LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it."we know his anger led to killing. if we dig deeper in to what god is saying, is this a lesson about the soul an how the mind works inside humans. i
DO you all realize Paul could recite off memory the first 5 books of the OT..... MANY people have no clue of what Paul is talking about and have no clue of the precepts he speaks on... he was an ex-pharisee, he has 1,000s of man made laws he "had to follow" and the Messiah set him free from the man made religion and reconciled him to the Father....
that is why this is written, to ignore it and not take it to heart is error
2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
Waiting for someone to post, "were not under Law!!!!!" lol having no clue of Paul's meaning....
that is why this is written, to ignore it and not take it to heart is error
2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
Waiting for someone to post, "were not under Law!!!!!" lol having no clue of Paul's meaning....
I agree, few seem to understand or accept Paul's message. I can assure you that any minister of any Christian church who boldly, forthrightly and fully preached the message of grace Paul wrote would see his church packed out with worshippers. Amazing miracles of victory over sin would be seen and God would be glorified
Paul Opposes Peter
7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),Galatians 2
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2
28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,30 since God is one---who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faithRomans 3
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believeth Rom 10:4
But then people boldly claim, obey the commandments or you end up in hell. That is a law of righteousness
I assume you are trying to paint me as self righteous to make me appear that way to others and to make me that in your mind.... Post one thing I said that made you think that?
Or are you just being dishonest, because I just said:
You quoted it and replied with that? Really?
He speaks on "touching the Law as a pharisee" in Gal, he says he "accounts that as dung" however in Romans 7 he says, "Romans 7:12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous." So either he is double minded or you misunderstand him....
So what is "grace" mercy that leads to empoweing obedience? or mercy that leads to rejection of everything the Creator says? I know modern "grace" is the latter and thus the "mystery of iniquity is already working"
Yahdah 1:3-4, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write to you about the common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once, for all, delivered to the saints. For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."
Accepting Messiah doesn't change one over night it is a life long process, hence "endure till the end...."
we are justified by YHWH's mercy yet NO MAN WILL SEE HIM WITHOUT OBEDIENCE.
Hebrews 12:14
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see Yah."
Yeremyah 7:9-11, "Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, vow falsely, burn incense to Baal, follow hinder gods you know nothing of, And then come and stand before Me in this House upon which My Name is called, and say; We are saved! Saved to do all these abominations? Has this House, which is called with My Name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen this! says Yahweh."
Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."
Faith + no works = dead
Works + no faith = dead
We need faith and works, AND OUR FAITH HAS TO BE POINTED AT THE RIGHT DIRECTION
Titus 1:16, "They profess that they know Yahweh, but by their works they deny Him--being abominable, disobedient, and to every righteous work, reprobate."
So disobedience is a ok? what about Rom 6:6, "sin leads to death"
and Is that a mistranslation?
We are not righteous by following the Law of the Creator, but the Yahsua showed the intent or ultimate result of keeping the Law of the Creator.
Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."
1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith--the salvation of your souls."
If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away in 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9. Unless of course telos means the goal.
Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)
HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.
James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."
Yaaqob (James) 5:11, "Behold, we regard as blessed those who endure. You have heard of the patience of Iyyob, and have seen the ultimate result (telos) of Yahweh: that Yahweh is very compassionate and merciful."
I assume you are trying to paint me as self righteous to make me appear that way to others and to make me that in your mind.... Post one thing I said that made you think that?
Or are you just being dishonest, because I just said:
You quoted it and replied with that? Really?
He speaks on "touching the Law as a pharisee" in Gal, he says he "accounts that as dung" however in Romans 7 he says, "Romans 7:12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous." So either he is double minded or you misunderstand him....
So what is "grace" mercy that leads to empoweing obedience? or mercy that leads to rejection of everything the Creator says? I know modern "grace" is the latter and thus the "mystery of iniquity is already working"
Yahdah 1:3-4, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write to you about the common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once, for all, delivered to the saints. For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."
Accepting Messiah doesn't change one over night it is a life long process, hence "endure till the end...."
we are justified by YHWH's mercy yet NO MAN WILL SEE HIM WITHOUT OBEDIENCE.
Hebrews 12:14
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see Yah."
Yeremyah 7:9-11, "Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, vow falsely, burn incense to Baal, follow hinder gods you know nothing of, And then come and stand before Me in this House upon which My Name is called, and say; We are saved! Saved to do all these abominations? Has this House, which is called with My Name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen this! says Yahweh."
Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."
Faith + no works = dead
Works + no faith = dead
We need faith and works, AND OUR FAITH HAS TO BE POINTED AT THE RIGHT DIRECTION
Titus 1:16, "They profess that they know Yahweh, but by their works they deny Him--being abominable, disobedient, and to every righteous work, reprobate."
If you understood romans 7:7-11 you would understand the need for true grace. Paul felt alive until the commandment came(thou shalt not covet, one of the Ten commandments) but when it did come, sin sprang to life and paul died(felt condemned) He became a worse sinner, for sin used that good and Holy law to condemn him. The commandment Paul believed would give him life if he obeyed it, instead brought death(condemnation) for he could not keep it.
The power of sin is the law 1Cor 15:56. Those who lived most strictly under a law of righteousness became most corrupted on the inside(Matt:23) And yet, many today, in effect preach earnestly a righteousness/right standing before God of obedience to the law. And yet, they cannot attain to what they demand of others. For they believe the standard of Christian living cannot be greater than Paul spoke of in Romans 7:14-25.
My one concern in all of this is for the humble, sincere of heart Christians who have honest estimation of themselves and become crushed by the demands of those who cannot live up to in their own lives what they demand of others. Jesus reserved his harshest words for the religious who crushed the people that way
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
Romans 7 is Paul speaking of his walk as a newly converted follower of Christ, then in chapter 8 you see his transition to a mature Christian. As verse 7:14 he calls himself carnally minded, but then in verse 8:6 he says a carnal mind leads to death and not eternal life.
As a newly converted person your moving away from the ways of the flesh (sins) will war with your new spiritual mindset, as the temptations will still be there trying to entice you to give into them. The spiritual mind will want you to abstain from giving in, and eventually if you keep in the Spirit He will help you to eliminate that temptation so it no longer controls you.
As a newly converted person your moving away from the ways of the flesh (sins) will war with your new spiritual mindset, as the temptations will still be there trying to entice you to give into them. The spiritual mind will want you to abstain from giving in, and eventually if you keep in the Spirit He will help you to eliminate that temptation so it no longer controls you.
K
keeth
Guest
Putting words in my mouth will never mean that I spoke them or believed them. You will answer before God for such, not me. Are you suggesting that converted people no longer struggle with the old man or sin? I understand that it is expedient for those who reject the authority of God's law, that those who do not reject the authority of the same believe that they are saved by the law, but this will never make it so. You must demand that it is so, because if it is not, then you are most obviously wrong. Thus this accusation is steadfastly maintained in order to divert attention away from scriptures which you have no answer for, and change the subject to salvation or not by the law, which is not really the topic at hand. No one says salvation is by the law. The debate is about the authority of God's law having been abrogated or not by the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
You and yours continually change the subject with the false accusation of legalism for salvation, in order to avoid addressing gobs of scripture which contradict your chosen blindness. You never address or attempt to explain the many scriptures which contradict your view, but always simply pit one scripture against another according to your twisting of the same, and put forth the same old accusation of legalism. Nevertheless you understand full well your need of salvation in Christ for breaking the very law yoiu claim no longer has any authority. Go figure!
Paul opposes Peter? what?
ok we can clear this up very easily:
Revelation 12:17
New American Standard Bible
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
Revelation 14:12
New American Standard Bible
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."
This is from the final written Message to mankind, it's called "The Revelation of Yahshua (Jesus)"
Brother Kenneth we dont agree in all matters, but I have to say, I think you have thoroughly read Romans and the Word all together, for that is truth.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 5
is he trying to explain walking in faith, or walking in law , or what jesus already did for the believers.
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