Tired of the Big LIE

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Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
26,520
8,822
113
#81
That brings up an interesting question I've always been wanting to ask you guys. What about a person who used to be a christian, but now he's an alcoholic who beats up his wife, cusses like a sailor and eventually gets shot by the cops while trying to rob a convenience store?

I ask this because I know a lot of people who used to be stalwart christians but have now backslidden. Do you believe they never were really saved? Or do you believe they are still saved despite turning away from God? Or do you believe it is (despite the evidence of their lives) impossible to turn from God?
 
S

Sirk

Guest
#82
That brings up an interesting question I've always been wanting to ask you guys. What about a person who used to be a christian, but now he's an alcoholic who beats up his wife, cusses like a sailor and eventually gets shot by the cops while trying to rob a convenience store?

I ask this because I know a lot of people who used to be stalwart christians but have now backslidden. Do you believe they never were really saved? Or do you believe they are still saved despite turning away from God? Or do you believe it is (despite the evidence of their lives) impossible to turn from God?
The "fruit" that bears out in your scenario would indicate they were just along for the ride.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#83
I agree for sure.......My bible teaches me that I am eternally saved, sealed, justified and sanctified by the offering of Christ once for all and it is all based upon the perfect, unfailing, eternal faith of Jesus.....! Going to be many who get cast out because they believe their right to enter is based upon all the wonderful works that they done in the name of Jesus.......~
Actually, "your Bible teaches you" no such things...unless you've been blotting out certain verses with a black marker or ripping out portions of pages from the same. Here is what the Bible actually teaches:

Hebrews chapter 10

[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
[15] Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[21] And having an high priest over the house of God;
[22] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
[23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised):
[24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


There's the "once for all sanctification" (vs. 10) of which you spoke...AND IT IS FOLLOWED BY A FEARFUL WARNING TO HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF YOUR FAITH AND TO NOT SIN WILLFULLY AFTER HAVING RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THEREBY TREADING UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, COUNTING THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH YOU WERE SANCTIFIED AS AN UNHOLY THING AND DOING DESPITE UNTO OR DESPISING THE SPIRIT OF GRACE WHICH RESULTS IN A FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION WHICH SHALL DEVOUR GOD'S ADVERSARIES!

Just a friendly reminder for those who still have complete Bibles in their possession and who actually believe the same and not the potentially damnable heresy of "once saved, always saved"...
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#84
Another MOOT argument and one to take the heat off of the fact off what you have already proven by your actions of adding words, denying words and following men...here back to the topic that you seem to reject....


Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Point proven...unteachable because of a rejection of truth........

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
This is why you are unteachable....I gave you a direct scripture that does not use the word ALL, of the which you interject the word ALL....I gave you a second scripture which contradicts your use of ALL, of the which you reject and a third point which is easily proven by the bible and you reject it....Kenneth there is nothing more to say to you...you consistently reject truth that contradicts what you believe and teach while ADDING words that are not there to support you view.....

YOU will never know the truth until you take a step back and acknowledge the truth EVER!

It is appointed unto men once to die<-------THE WORD ALL is NOT THERE
We which are ALIVE AND REMAIN<-----ALIVE IS NOT DEAD

You would argue with a fence post that it was not a fence post........if it went against your view of a fence post!

You are following men, as you are following the faulty teachings of your classes you took because clearly Matthew 10:22 is not about physical life in the flesh. And I did address what you said and did not deny anything, you just claim that because you do not like the truth the scriptures I gave say because if refutes your theory unless you twist as you continue to do.

I do not wish to debate with you as I consider you a fellow brother in Christ, however I can not sit back and let a fellow brother teach such clear falsehoods. The Holy Spirit will not let me let those falsehoods slide when others who are new to the faith are listening. I may sound strict in my wording at times, but so was Paul as he did not let this fallacies from fellow brothers get away with it either. He even called out Peter for letting false teaching lead the Galatians away from God's grace back to a faulty life of sin (justification by the law). Paul did not say they had eternal life, he said Christ has become of no effect to them and they have fallen from grace.
No forgiveness through Christ, and no God's grace = No salvation !!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
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#85
That brings up an interesting question I've always been wanting to ask you guys. What about a person who used to be a christian, but now he's an alcoholic who beats up his wife, cusses like a sailor and eventually gets shot by the cops while trying to rob a convenience store?

I ask this because I know a lot of people who used to be stalwart christians but have now backslidden. Do you believe they never were really saved? Or do you believe they are still saved despite turning away from God? Or do you believe it is (despite the evidence of their lives) impossible to turn from God?
John said that if they go out from us they never were of us.....but lest we forget the Prodigal son went and squandered his inheritance by riotous living, was perceived as dead (while alive) and returns and is received as a child...The fact of his sonship remained true even though he was perceived as dead by his actions....A child of God is a child by birth....that cannot ever change...a child of God cannot LIVE A CONTINUAL LIFESTYLE OF SIN (does not mean they wont sin) and will always come back to God.........
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#86
That brings up an interesting question I've always been wanting to ask you guys. What about a person who used to be a christian, but now he's an alcoholic who beats up his wife, cusses like a sailor and eventually gets shot by the cops while trying to rob a convenience store?

I ask this because I know a lot of people who used to be stalwart christians but have now backslidden. Do you believe they never were really saved? Or do you believe they are still saved despite turning away from God? Or do you believe it is (despite the evidence of their lives) impossible to turn from God?

They have taken themselves out of fellowship with God by doing that, and if they continue down that sinful road they will not end up with eternal life. However if they do come back in repentance they will receive eternal life through the Lord.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
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#87
You are following men, as you are following the faulty teachings of your classes you took because clearly Matthew 10:22 is not about physical life in the flesh. And I did address what you said and did not deny anything, you just claim that because you do not like the truth the scriptures I gave say because if refutes your theory unless you twist as you continue to do.

I do not wish to debate with you as I consider you a fellow brother in Christ, however I can not sit back and let a fellow brother teach such clear falsehoods. The Holy Spirit will not let me let those falsehoods slide when others who are new to the faith are listening. I may sound strict in my wording at times, but so was Paul as he did not let this fallacies from fellow brothers get away with it either. He even called out Peter for letting false teaching lead the Galatians away from God's grace back to a faulty life of sin (justification by the law). Paul did not say they had eternal life, he said Christ has become of no effect to them and they have fallen from grace.
No forgiveness through Christ, and no God's grace = No salvation !!!
More fluff by you KENNETH....keep following your works dude.....no biggie to me....You cannot even address your additions of words and or twist of words so...what you say falls straight to the ground.......Again you attempt to throw the heat off of yourself by your above post.....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Another MOOT argument and one to take the heat off of the fact off what you have already proven by your actions of adding words, denying words and following men...here back to the topic that you seem to reject....


Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Point proven...unteachable because of a rejection of truth........

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
This is why you are unteachable....I gave you a direct scripture that does not use the word ALL, of the which you interject the word ALL....I gave you a second scripture which contradicts your use of ALL, of the which you reject and a third point which is easily proven by the bible and you reject it....Kenneth there is nothing more to say to you...you consistently reject truth that contradicts what you believe and teach while ADDING words that are not there to support you view.....

YOU will never know the truth until you take a step back and acknowledge the truth EVER!

It is appointed unto men once to die<-------THE WORD ALL is NOT THERE
We which are ALIVE AND REMAIN<-----ALIVE IS NOT DEAD

You would argue with a fence post that it was not a fence post........if it went against your view of a fence post!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
113
#88
More fluff from you as well and verses out of context.....You really should change your online name because it s obvious that you don't know the Lord, much less what he teaches....It would help if you understood CONTEXT and who that verse is pointed at........what a farce...like all who teach you can loose it..verses yanked out of context and hung on heretical points........

Actually, "your Bible teaches you" no such things...unless you've been blotting out certain verses with a black marker or ripping out portions of pages from the same. Here is what the Bible actually teaches:

Hebrews chapter 10

[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
[15] Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[21] And having an high priest over the house of God;
[22] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
[23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised):
[24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


There's the "once for all sanctification" (vs. 10) of which you spoke...AND IT IS FOLLOWED BY A FEARFUL WARNING TO HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF YOUR FAITH AND TO NOT SIN WILLFULLY AFTER HAVING RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THEREBY TREADING UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, COUNTING THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH YOU WERE SANCTIFIED AS AN UNHOLY THING AND DOING DESPITE UNTO OR DESPISING THE SPIRIT OF GRACE WHICH RESULTS IN A FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION WHICH SHALL DEVOUR GOD'S ADVERSARIES!

Just a friendly reminder for those who still have complete Bibles in their possession and who actually believe the same and not the potentially damnable heresy of "once saved, always saved"...
 
S

Sirk

Guest
#89
The fact that God uses people, their failings and their weakness to not only bring others to repentance....but to show His power in our weakness, should be enough to end this argument.....but sadly......it won't. Satan is just using them to make noise in the hopes that Jesus and His calling of His flock cannot be heard.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#90
John said that if they go out from us they never were of us.....but lest we forget the Prodigal son went and squandered his inheritance by riotous living, was perceived as dead (while alive) and returns and is received as a child...The fact of his sonship remained true even though he was perceived as dead by his actions....A child of God is a child by birth....that cannot ever change...a child of God cannot LIVE A CONTINUAL LIFESTYLE OF SIN (does not mean they wont sin) and will always come back to God.........

Sorry but misuse of scripture again, and this is common with this scripture as the context is referring to forms of the antichrist. Not those who have fallen away because of hardships, trials, and issues in their life.


1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
26,520
8,822
113
#91
John said that if they go out from us they never were of us.....but lest we forget the Prodigal son went and squandered his inheritance by riotous living, was perceived as dead (while alive) and returns and is received as a child...The fact of his sonship remained true even though he was perceived as dead by his actions....A child of God is a child by birth....that cannot ever change...a child of God cannot LIVE A CONTINUAL LIFESTYLE OF SIN (does not mean they wont sin) and will always come back to God.........
I'm not sure I was clear in my question. If someone started as a devout christian, but then backslid, do you consider him still saved? Or do you assume he has been faking it all these years? Or do you believe he would have been saved had he continued in God, but now he is lost?
 
S

Sirk

Guest
#92
I'm not sure I was clear in my question. If someone started as a devout christian, but then backslid, do you consider him still saved? Or do you assume he has been faking it all these years? Or do you believe he would have been saved had he continued in God, but now he is lost?
How do you know the condition of his heart? People have led large churches while using drugs and hiring prostitutes. The appearance of being devout can be deceiving.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
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#93
Sorry but misuse of scripture again, and this is common with this scripture as the context is referring to forms of the antichrist. Not those who have fallen away because of hardships, trials, and issues in their life.


1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Like you have a clue......HAHAHHAAHHHHHAH that made me laugh.......!
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#94
That brings up an interesting question I've always been wanting to ask you guys. What about a person who used to be a christian, but now he's an alcoholic who beats up his wife, cusses like a sailor and eventually gets shot by the cops while trying to rob a convenience store?

I ask this because I know a lot of people who used to be stalwart christians but have now backslidden. Do you believe they never were really saved? Or do you believe they are still saved despite turning away from God? Or do you believe it is (despite the evidence of their lives) impossible to turn from God?
Galatians chapter 5

[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Again:

I Corinthians chapter 6

[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#95
How do you know the condition of his heart? People have led large churches while using drugs and hiring prostitutes. The appearance of being devout can be deceiving.
No doubt.....like all the workers for salvation...they appear righteous like the Pharisees, but are in reality coffins filled with the bones of dead men!
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
#96
More fluff from you as well and verses out of context.....You really should change your online name because it s obvious that you don't know the Lord, much less what he teaches....It would help if you understood CONTEXT and who that verse is pointed at........what a farce...like all who teach you can loose it..verses yanked out of context and hung on heretical points........
Nice way to avoid the obvious, heretic.

If you've ever feared a court-martial as a Marine, how is it that you don't fear God, heretic?
 
A

AbbeyJoy

Guest
#97
Hi dc your right and I agree, what I believe is that if you have Christ in your heart and that the only way to loose your salvation is by actually walking away from God's will and denying him..but also if we made a mistake we are still His no matter what and that what really matters is the Heart of people.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,204
1,108
113
New Zealand
#98
I'm not sure I was clear in my question. If someone started as a devout christian, but then backslid, do you consider him still saved? Or do you assume he has been faking it all these years? Or do you believe he would have been saved had he continued in God, but now he is lost?
If they started out as someone who has received the Holy Spirit into their soul.. then backslid-- yah they are still saved. There lifestyle doesn't determine their eternal state because they have been given eternal life to start with.

But someone who lives in open rebellion-- there has gotta be some questions over what happened in the first place. They aren't being thankful to the freedom giver.

Really for someone who is saved though- Christ's sacrifice is all sufficient.. they may go wayward.. but Christ has given them eternal life.

That is His commitment.

When your children go into open rebellion against you.. they don't lose the fact they are a member of your family in the first place.
 
Nov 30, 2012
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#99
Nice way to avoid the obvious, heretic.

If you've ever feared a court-martial as a Marine, how is it that you don't fear God, heretic?
Even if I believe DC has a heretical belief...this is uncalled for. If you believe him to be a heretic then treat him as one of God's creatures who has fallen into error and not as if he is the Devil himself.

Many a soul will come before God and be cleaned of their personal heresies. Don't treat him as if he has denied Christ. Heretic possibly, but not an Apostate.
 
Nov 30, 2012
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26
0
When your children go into open rebellion against you.. they don't lose the fact they are a member of your family in the first place.
This is a modern argument. One that is false. Even the Father of the Prodigal Son admits that the Prodigal Son was dead. This is why the Jewish Faith has a rite of disowning. Because they do lose the fact they are a member of the family, not because the family disowns the son, but because the son has disowned the family.