Matter is never de-created. Throw a log onto the fire, and it's matter doesn't cease to exist, it is just altered into a different form - ash and smoke. That's why I believe the lake of fire is really the decommissioned earth - it's matter doesn't cease to exist, it just takes it's natural form apart from God. Likewise with those cast therein, they don't cease to exist, they exist in a form that is absent from God.
What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving?
- Thread starter Jason0047
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K
What innocents?
Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
M
Of course it is. Choices have consequences but we don't want to "suffer". We do, however, want others to suffer for the pain they've cause us. There is a way to avoid the "hell" we deserve and that's by acknowledging that Jesus Is Our Lord And Savior and saying it and believing it from the heart. You have to do both. As you continue to live, you get further and further away from the "false dad, false god, the one who tricks people into worshipping him and then by choice===worship the only True and Righteous God through his son Jesus Christ.
footnote tidbit for praying/bible reading/seeking yahweh's truth >>> since someone brought up 'matter' , who knows what yahweh says in his word actually happens eventually and finally with all the matter in the universe ?
for now, answers like little children give are perfect and fine and possibly required.....
btw, this is not something open to anyone's interpretation anywhere. (actually, nothing in his word is open nor subject to man's interpretation --- when men started interpreting it, that's when all the false doctrines and practices and evil got control of the church and deceived billions of souls on earth to their destruction).
for now, answers like little children give are perfect and fine and possibly required.....
btw, this is not something open to anyone's interpretation anywhere. (actually, nothing in his word is open nor subject to man's interpretation --- when men started interpreting it, that's when all the false doctrines and practices and evil got control of the church and deceived billions of souls on earth to their destruction).
K
I believe the lake of fire is not an eternity of torture for all who gets sent there, and the reason for this is what the Lord says in Luke 12:45-48. In this passage He explains different punishments will be issued out, so if all get punished the same and for the same amount of time in the lake of fire He would be lying in this passage. Which we know He does not.....
The Hebrew word for "weep" is bakah (baw-kaw') which doen't show up in
the Bible until Gen 21:16.
In other words: had God actually shed tears for the antediluvians, the text of
Gen 6:6-7 would say bakah instead of the Hebrew words for repent and
grieve; which are nacham (naw-kham') and 'atsab (aw-tsab').
Nacham means to sigh.
'Atsab means to be pained.
I don't think Gen 6:6-7 is suggesting that God made a mistake in creating
humanity. I think it's conveying that His feelings were those of parents who
had high expectations for their children when they were born; only to watch
them turn out losers when they grew up.
It's amazing to me that the antediluvians had become so incorrigible that
the only recourse was to pull back and nuke 'em from orbit, so to speak.
====================================
the Bible until Gen 21:16.
In other words: had God actually shed tears for the antediluvians, the text of
Gen 6:6-7 would say bakah instead of the Hebrew words for repent and
grieve; which are nacham (naw-kham') and 'atsab (aw-tsab').
Nacham means to sigh.
'Atsab means to be pained.
I don't think Gen 6:6-7 is suggesting that God made a mistake in creating
humanity. I think it's conveying that His feelings were those of parents who
had high expectations for their children when they were born; only to watch
them turn out losers when they grew up.
It's amazing to me that the antediluvians had become so incorrigible that
the only recourse was to pull back and nuke 'em from orbit, so to speak.
====================================
First, I used to defend ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment). I know all the excuses and they are hollow ones. In fact, you will never.... I repeat... you will never be able to explain the moral justice or fair punishment of trying to teach that God is going to roast and torture people alive for all eternity as a justifable punishment for them committing a finite amount of crimes done here upon this Earth. Try as you might. It will never happen. Second, you didn't answer my question. I asked is it loving to burn people alive for all eternity and you really didn't answer that. You just said we all deserve to go to Hell whether we were good or bad. Actually if we were good, we wouldn't be going to Hell or a Lake of Fire. People are punished because they did bad and not good. But again, this is an avoidance of my question. Is it loving to send someone to Hell for all eternity? Is it fair and just? Would it be fair and just if a dictator tortured your family for the rest of their lives for lying to that dictator when they visited his country? The point I am getting at is that you should easily be able to explain the fair judgments of God. They should not be a mystery to explain.
Indeed. It is a hard thing to change one's beliefs. For some it is a matter of pride. For others it is a matter of not being accepted by other believers. For other people it is an issue of not being open to God's Word and not doing their own homework. For God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. For example: Most ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) Proponents believe Revelation 20:10 is clearly teaching Eternal Torment. They base this off the words "Ages of Ages." But...
What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?
Well, Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.
"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson
In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! Not future! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.
Revelation 20:10 Darby
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."
For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night andnot for all eternity.
So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."
As I stated before, this is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).
What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?
Well, Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.
"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson
In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! Not future! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.
Revelation 20:10 Darby
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."
For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night andnot for all eternity.
So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."
As I stated before, this is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).
Last edited:
K
The context of John 3:13 can only be taken in the context of those who have died in the flesh, because if this to be taken other wise how do we explain Elijah then;
2 Kings 2:11
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
Jesus said that no man ascends to Heaven except Himself, when He said,
Yeah, but what about Elijah?
I believe confusion arises on this point because people do not understand that there are:
The First Heaven:
The first heaven is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25;34:20,Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven' is shamayim. This same word is translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the air," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the heaven." The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:8). So the first heaven is synonymous with 'heights' or 'elevations.'
Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as 'heaven' (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called 'heaven'.
Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even "though they climb up to heaven" (verse 2). This "heaven" is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.
Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the "dew of heaven" (Genesis 27:28,39,Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called 'heaven."
Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is 'shachaq.' This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as 'sky' or 'skies' (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as 'clouds' (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).
The Second Heaven:
The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5;22:17;26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term "host of heaven" or "firmament of the heaven" is used to describe this second heaven.
The Third Heaven:
The third heaven is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "Father's house" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "paradise" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the "heaven of heavens" (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the "kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the "eternal kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11), the "eternal inheritance" (1 Peter. 1:4,Hebrews 9:15), and the "better country" (Hebrews 11:14,16). The fact that there are more than one 'heaven' can be shown by Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S." There are obviously two different 'heavens' being addressed in this one verse.
Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God's heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.
Source Used:
Elijah, Enoch, and Moses
Important Note: Although I quoted part of this article to help explain the three heavens, I do not agree with their interpretation of on Enoch. I believe Enoch was translated or spiritually taken by God and did not see death (as the Scriptures say). So not all the views expressed at this website reflect my views on the Scriptures.
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
(John 3:13 KJV)
In other words, no man has ascended physically to Heaven but Jesus (i.e. the Son of Man).(John 3:13 KJV)
Yeah, but what about Elijah?
I believe confusion arises on this point because people do not understand that there are:
Three Heavens
The Scripture mentions three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2), not just one!
The First Heaven:
The first heaven is earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Genesis 1:20, Jeremiah 4:25;34:20,Lamentations 4:19, Zephaniah 1:3). One of the Hebrew words for 'heaven' is shamayim. This same word is translated as 'sky' in the Scripture, as can be seen by comparing Genesis 7:3, "fowls also of the air," with Genesis 7:23, "fowl of the heaven." The word 'sky' and 'heaven' are used interchangeably from the same Hebrew word (Psalm 8:8). So the first heaven is synonymous with 'heights' or 'elevations.'
Here are other examples to illustrate the first heaven. Exodus 19:20 says the Lord was on top of Mount Sinai when he called Moses up there, and God describes Mount Sinai as 'heaven' (Exodus 20:22, Deuteronomy 4:36). Here, everything above the ground is called 'heaven'.
Another example of the first heaven is in Amos 9:1-3, where God states that at the time of this judgment, nobody will be able to flee away (verse 1), even "though they climb up to heaven" (verse 2). This "heaven" is defined in the next verse, verse 3, as climbing to the top of Mount Carmel.
Another example is where the Scripture speaks of the "dew of heaven" (Genesis 27:28,39,Deuteronomy 33:28, Daniel 4:15-33; 5:21). The first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Therefore, everything above the ground is called 'heaven."
Another Hebrew word for the first heaven is 'shachaq.' This same word for heaven (Psalm 89:6,37) is also translated as 'sky' or 'skies' (Deuteronomy 33:26; Job 37:18; Psalm 18:11), and as 'clouds' (Job 35:5; 36:28; Psalm 36:5; 68:34, Pro. 3:20; 8:28).
The Second Heaven:
The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Genesis 1:14-17; 15:5;22:17;26:4, Deuteronomy 1:10; 17:3; Psalm 8:3, Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29). Usually the term "host of heaven" or "firmament of the heaven" is used to describe this second heaven.
The Third Heaven:
The third heaven is literally called "the third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12:2. This third heaven is what Christ calls his "Father's house" (John 14:2), and both Christ and the Apostle Paul calls it "paradise" (Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, Revelation 2:7). This is where God and the heavenly sanctuary exist (1 Peter 3:22). This third heaven is also known as the "heaven of heavens" (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27, 2 Chronicles 2:6; 6:18, Nehemiah 9:6, Psalms 148:4), "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4: 26; Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12), the "kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 25:1, James 2:5), the "eternal kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11), the "eternal inheritance" (1 Peter. 1:4,Hebrews 9:15), and the "better country" (Hebrews 11:14,16). The fact that there are more than one 'heaven' can be shown by Psalm 115:16, "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S." There are obviously two different 'heavens' being addressed in this one verse.
Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go? He was not taken to God's heavenly throne (as some imagine). He was actually taken into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven. There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth.
Source Used:
Elijah, Enoch, and Moses
Important Note: Although I quoted part of this article to help explain the three heavens, I do not agree with their interpretation of on Enoch. I believe Enoch was translated or spiritually taken by God and did not see death (as the Scriptures say). So not all the views expressed at this website reflect my views on the Scriptures.
As for Elijah being taken away to the 1st Heaven (i.e. the Sky), Philip was taken away by the Spirit to another location:
For just as Elijah was taken away in a chariot of fire.
Philip was talking to an Ethiopian in a chariot.
And later, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more. Just as Elisha had seen Elijah taken away. (Compare 2 Kings 2:11, 12 & Acts 8:38, 39, 40).
For just as Elijah was taken away in a chariot of fire.
Philip was talking to an Ethiopian in a chariot.
And later, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more. Just as Elisha had seen Elijah taken away. (Compare 2 Kings 2:11, 12 & Acts 8:38, 39, 40).
The thing is that Philip was only carried off to another city, not to heaven as Elijah was;
Acts 8:40
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
Acts 8:40
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
Jesus meant what he said. No man has ascended up into Heaven except the Son of Man.
I believe Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses in the End Times. This is not in conflict with what I believe about Elijah being taken up to the first heaven (i.e. the atmosphere).
But what about Enoch? Wasn't Enoch translated and taken directly to Heaven? No. Enoch was translated, yes, but he was taken to be with the Lord in Paradise or what is known later as Abraham's Bosom, though. Again, no man has ascended into Heaven except the Son of Man (Just as Jesus said).
I believe Moses and Elijah will be the two witnesses in the End Times. This is not in conflict with what I believe about Elijah being taken up to the first heaven (i.e. the atmosphere).
But what about Enoch? Wasn't Enoch translated and taken directly to Heaven? No. Enoch was translated, yes, but he was taken to be with the Lord in Paradise or what is known later as Abraham's Bosom, though. Again, no man has ascended into Heaven except the Son of Man (Just as Jesus said).