lets talk about gay people!!!
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T
So you are saying that you were brought to repentance by God wrath, condemnation, contempt, hate and judgement against you!?!?!?
You need to search your heart and quickly.
The Bible tells us in Romans 2.4, that it is God's goodness that brings men unto repentance and not his wrath, anger or anything else you stated. so you obviously have been taught a doctrine, but are shallow in the word and How God saves us. We do not WAR with those who oppose God, we love them, just as Jesus showed us.
You are victim of a false doctrine, that believe it is God's anger that saves you, but the Bible clearly and plainly says otherwise....your theology/doctrine is at odds with the word of God an for that young brother, you better check yourself....
The verses you stand on are also sorely out of context and prove that you are deluded by Calvinist false teachings....
The Calvinist doctrine crumbles under Romans 2.1-4....Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
The Calvinist doctrine is destroyed by Romans 5.8-But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
You state you are saved directly opposite to what God's word states and that my friend is something you to seriously think about....
You are also not part of the old covenant, but a partaker in the new covenant which is the covenant of grace, not judgement.
This does not mean that God still hates SIN and needs us to repent, but he does it by grace and not by the law and not by your works and certainly not because he is angry with us or hates us, or has contempt or condemnation towards us....
He loved us so much that he sent his Son...If God were the God you suggest in this reply, then he would have killed Adam and Eve and destroyed the earth right then and there....
You are in serious error...
You need to search your heart and quickly.
The Bible tells us in Romans 2.4, that it is God's goodness that brings men unto repentance and not his wrath, anger or anything else you stated. so you obviously have been taught a doctrine, but are shallow in the word and How God saves us. We do not WAR with those who oppose God, we love them, just as Jesus showed us.
You are victim of a false doctrine, that believe it is God's anger that saves you, but the Bible clearly and plainly says otherwise....your theology/doctrine is at odds with the word of God an for that young brother, you better check yourself....
The verses you stand on are also sorely out of context and prove that you are deluded by Calvinist false teachings....
The Calvinist doctrine crumbles under Romans 2.1-4....Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
The Calvinist doctrine is destroyed by Romans 5.8-But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
You state you are saved directly opposite to what God's word states and that my friend is something you to seriously think about....
You are also not part of the old covenant, but a partaker in the new covenant which is the covenant of grace, not judgement.
This does not mean that God still hates SIN and needs us to repent, but he does it by grace and not by the law and not by your works and certainly not because he is angry with us or hates us, or has contempt or condemnation towards us....
He loved us so much that he sent his Son...If God were the God you suggest in this reply, then he would have killed Adam and Eve and destroyed the earth right then and there....
You are in serious error...
T
This is a moot point since all who claim they are saved, claim they are saved, whether by election or otherwise 
We appeal to these verses as does everyone else regardless of belief in election or not (or should rather):
We appeal to these verses as does everyone else regardless of belief in election or not (or should rather):
T
and you would be wrong and in error, the Bible clearly tells you differently....if fear or terror made you run to the altar then you better check yourself....
2 Tim 1.7 says: [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Really Son, you need to regroup here...
2 Tim 1.7 says: [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Really Son, you need to regroup here...
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God's wrath and hatred for sin put fear in me about condemnation that caused me to recognize I was a sinner in need of His grace. It was God's goodness that showed me I wasn't trapped in my sins and I had a way out through Christ and God's love and forgiveness. By grace through faith. If it had not been for the initial fear, I would have been incapable of accepting His grace. These two do not oppose each other int he way you are claiming. Nothing I have said is false or contradicts scripture in any way. I never said God's anger saved me as you claim. I claimed I was saved by God's goodness and grace, but became aware of the need for it only after recognizing I was a sinner by that fear.
You have a very shallow and flawed understanding of God yourself, but I will take your comments as best I can without backbiting and judging you as as you like to do to me.
Let's say, as you claim, fear only means respect, but we can only respect God once we are saved and not while we are still in sin. Let's take your own view to it's logical conclusion. If we cannot respect God until we are saved, you admit that you did nothing apart from God saving you himself and admit election to be true since no one in a fallen state has a respect for God, therefore cannot choose to serve God.
If we have no fear of God, we have no need for God. If we have no respect for God, we have no need for God. Why would we submit and believe and trust in someone we do not respect?
I would ask you to please read carefully my posts before you respond because you are completely missing everything I'm saying and basically putting words in my mouth that I never said. I will give you the same respect. Thanks.
You have a very shallow and flawed understanding of God yourself, but I will take your comments as best I can without backbiting and judging you as as you like to do to me.
Let's say, as you claim, fear only means respect, but we can only respect God once we are saved and not while we are still in sin. Let's take your own view to it's logical conclusion. If we cannot respect God until we are saved, you admit that you did nothing apart from God saving you himself and admit election to be true since no one in a fallen state has a respect for God, therefore cannot choose to serve God.
If we have no fear of God, we have no need for God. If we have no respect for God, we have no need for God. Why would we submit and believe and trust in someone we do not respect?
I would ask you to please read carefully my posts before you respond because you are completely missing everything I'm saying and basically putting words in my mouth that I never said. I will give you the same respect. Thanks.
Putting words in my mouth again. I am saying we are saved by grace through faith but we are too examine ourselves to make sure we are walking in that faith. It's really easy man. Please stop twisting what I'm saying. Last time I will ask. I believe in election, therefore I cannot believe in works based salvation as I believe I did nothing apart from God saving me against my own sinful will. You argue the works based salvation by saying it was all you who chose to serve God in your fallen state, putting slavation in your own hands, not God's.
K
Everyone gets the opportunity to accept or reject Christ otherwise human free will would be null. That's the only thing that's messed up about the idea of election, and doesn't make sense with the fact God doesn't force His will upon humanity, and respects our decisions. If you really believe that, what is the point of mission work or Christian evangelism in general? The right people will accept God anyways from that view...when it's rather obvious that is an error and God prompts each and every single person's heart in some way at one point in time, then they can choose to accept it or reject it. And if they live in such a remote area they never hear the gospel i would guess how well they follow their conscience will be the determining factor there, otherwise it seems harsh for an individual who never has had the choice presented to them to end up in eternal damnation.
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Human free will is null. there is another thread where we can debate this if you wish. Our will is defined by our condition, and while under sin, we choose based on our sinful disposition. It is free in that sense alone. You cannot choose God in your fallen state. It's impossible. The doctrine of election really can't be disputed as the bible doesn't teach freewill (in the way you define it) anywhere. We do nothing apart from God for salvation. It's ALL Him.
God calls, God chooses. We choose Him only based on the primary cause - His own will and choosing of us first. I chose because I was compelled by God to make that choice. We are all born into sin and deserving of death, so there is no issue here as far as election is concerned. Some claim it paints God out to be evil, but I can fire right back and say that if God is omniscient but created everyone anyway (free-will or not), knowing many would go to hell, we could arrive at the same conclusion if we wish to take this distorted perspective of God.
K
Knowing what someone will do ahead of "time" doesn't mean they don't have a choice still. Also God exists outside of our human notions of time anyway. To Him yesterday, today and tomrorow are all present in front of Him because He is on the outside looking in, its not linear like it is for is a straight line for humanity. It's up to us to choose whether or not to accept God after the Holy Spirit shows us the need. Then everything after that if we accept Him is up to God. Then whether or not you continue in faith and eternal security vs if people can fall away and go to hell all that debate starts.
le sigh... Carry on man. Growing tired of your accusations, so I will simply back out of this one. Let me just make myself clear one last time:
I never said fear saved me (you did)
I claimed fear allowed me to see myself for who I was, a sinner in need of grace (sounds like gospel 101 to me)
I claimed I am saved by grace through faith, by God's own hand and nothing I did to save myself (through the work of Christ on the cross and trust in Him)
I quoted scripture that said we must examine ourselves (you twisted this into works based salvation somehow?)
I claimed God is good and forgiving
I claimed God is fearful and deserving of this fear
I claimed God is multifaceted and has more sides to Him than simply "love all the time constantly" (He does exhibit wrath and judgment and hatred and makes war and that he is just and right in all He does, deserving of respect and adoration)
All biblical ideologies.
I never said fear saved me (you did)
I claimed fear allowed me to see myself for who I was, a sinner in need of grace (sounds like gospel 101 to me)
I claimed I am saved by grace through faith, by God's own hand and nothing I did to save myself (through the work of Christ on the cross and trust in Him)
I quoted scripture that said we must examine ourselves (you twisted this into works based salvation somehow?)
I claimed God is good and forgiving
I claimed God is fearful and deserving of this fear
I claimed God is multifaceted and has more sides to Him than simply "love all the time constantly" (He does exhibit wrath and judgment and hatred and makes war and that he is just and right in all He does, deserving of respect and adoration)
All biblical ideologies.