Tired of the Big LIE

JesusistheChrist · Feb 9, 2015

I am glad you brought up the past tense in Ephesians 2. Let's look at another one. Ephesians 2:2 says, "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience." Verse 3 lets us know that this is talking about sin because it says we had our conversation in times past in the lust of the flesh, etc. In other words, you used to be a sinner or a child of wrath, but you are not supposed to be that way anymore if you claim to be a believer in Jesus Christ. I am not talking about how you will not slip up ever again before God. What I am talking about is that you will not sin as a way of life if you repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your Savior for real. Repent meaning you are truly broken before God and you are sorry for your sin. So sorry that you will actually stop doing it as a way of life.

Amen and amen.

Jason0047 · Feb 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Dear Peaceful Believer:

Please take note that I am not judging you personally. The "you" is speaking hypothetically. But if the shoe fits in my description of the "you" in this instance, then it is the Word of God that will condemn you and not me.

Jason0047 · Feb 9, 2015

JesusistheChrist said:

Thank you. What I don't get is that if everyone here is for holiness or righteousness (supposedly), then why are they arguing against us? Did not some of them say that a true believer is marked by the fact that they are penitent and righteous?

3Scoreand10 · Feb 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Why do I need a disclaimer?
I have confessed many times on this forum that I sin daily, I confess those sins daily, and I am forgiven daily.
I strive to live a righteous life just like everyone else I know that believes OSAS.
But unlike you and others, I confess that I sin DAILY.
You judged me and lied about my life based on what you think, not on what you know.
If you wish to deny it again, go ahead.

Word_Swordsman · Feb 9, 2015

That's it in a nutshell. What would you think of a person who "gave away a billion dollar inheritance", later proved he never had it at all?

The haunting scripture I've never heard preached brings it into focus.
Hebrews 10:21-23 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And having an high priest over the house of God;
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Draw near....keep a clean conscience......hold on to the end. A lifelong pattern of deciding for Jesus by that faith.

Hebrews 10:24-27 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[SUP]27 [/SUP] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

That ought not require commentary.

Hebrews 10:28-29 (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

That doesn't speak to unsaved people, the average Gentile living in ignorance. It is to Christians. Why put that in the Word of God if it isn't possible for a person meeting that criteria to fall? Paul writes of falling from grace in other places, so the concept is one that is verified scripture by scripture.

I've witnessed people let disappointment lead them into disbelief, a step at a time, too slowly for them to recognize the peril they make for themselves until they never assemble anywhere, anytime, with other Christians. Once dedicated to the Lord, then an adversary themselves.

OSAS doesn't stand in that scripture. Salvation begins when one first begins with Christ, is completed at the last day, not our days, but on the Day of the Lord. I think the misconception people have is the term "born again" is actually more accurately rendered "born from above", allowing a concept that spiritual rebirth happens just like a human baby being born. Not so. If it was like that the New Testament epistles would be pointless. Why bother assembling together, exhorting others to keep the faith? We would just be birthed into the Kingdom then wait to die and go to Heaven?

Also, it falls upon OSAS believers to show in scriptures, not from commentaries or books about it, that the spirit in a person is saved regardless of the status of soul and/or body. Paul delivered a hypocrite to Satan for destruction of his flesh in hopes at least his spirit might be saved. 1 Cor 5. The man repented in 2 Cor 2:5 after much suffering.

We all believe the Holy Spirit takes up residence inside us, but he is known to also depart because of sin. God is not mocked. Can he return? That would depend on how much he had before defiling his temple. There is a point of no return, the sin unto death that we are not supposed to pray about.

I think it is best to simply do the Word to our last day on earth, without suffering doubts, nor entertaining an "EASY" button
mentality that has kept untold numbers of people "saved" at age 12, spending the rest of their lives not conforming to the scriptures, just being a nice person that never got a traffic ticket, holding a hymnal Sundays, unable to pray or lead a soul to Jesus. Many a church starts up a witnessing program once a year or five, potentially hundreds of Christians available, with only three or four showing up, one lasting through to the close of it (the youth pastor), resulting in zero new Christians.

Jason0047 · Feb 9, 2015

3Scoreand10 said:

Please show the Post # and I will be happy to apologize. I am not perfect. However, you have to understand that it doesn't matter if you live like a saint and you fess up every sin. If you teach that future sin is forgiven (with no disclaimer), the new reader who just happens accross your OSAS post is going to get the wrong message and think they do have a license to sin. That's the problem I have. In fact, I have been debating OSAS for years and holiness is never the focus of these types of discussions for the OSAS proponent. They never use it as a part of their defense. It is more like I have to twist their arm in order for them to even start talking about it.

Utah · Feb 9, 2015

3Scoreand10 said:

It's like the He-men Woman Haters Club but with eternal benefits!

Jason0047 · Feb 9, 2015

Utah said:

Christians are not defined as being haters. In fact, the Scriptures say if we hate our brother we are like a murderer; And we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them.

Sirk · Feb 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

It's called humor.....are you a computer program?

KJV1611 · Feb 9, 2015

I quit worrying about sin when I finally understood Romans 7. I don't sin any more, if I sin it's not me that sins, it's the sin that dwells in me. I have truly ceased from my works and entered into His rest... Y'all should try it, it's pretty nice!

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Jason0047 · Feb 9, 2015

Sirk said:

I don't find this discussion to be a laughing matter. I believe it to be very serious. Why? Because it is a matter of spiritual life and death.

Utah · Feb 9, 2015

JesusistheChrist said:

That simply is not correct. I love the Lord, and my proclamation is not merely a phrase, it is my lifelong, heartfelt, cognitive, spiritual existence, and the Holy Spirit dwells within me.

I LOVE THE LORD IMMENSELY!!!! . . . but I am a sinner.

I get mad when people flagrantly cut me off, I appreciate a woman's femininity, I would kill in order to protect innocence, and there are a multitude of other sins for which I have been, am now, and will be guilty of in the future. I love God, worship Him, honor Him, glorify Him, serve Him, repent to Him, attempt to emulate Him, have faith in ONLY HIM. Sin does not have dominion over me but I am a sinner nonetheless. But I am a loved and forgiven sinner at that!

Utah · Feb 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

No, friend, I was joking, referring to the Little Rascals and the He-men Woman Haters Club.

Jason0047 · Feb 9, 2015

KJV1611 said:

Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans chapter 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. Actually, Paul is speaking to Messianic believers who are still entangled by the Law (or those trying to keep the Law of Moses). He is referring to his experience as a Jew (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey the Law. Paul gives these Messianic Jews (Who hold to the Law) the solution to overcome their struggle to keep the Law with Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).

#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.

In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."

Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.

For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).

This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.

#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.

#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.

#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.

#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.

“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).

“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).

If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-25.

Anyways, I hope this helps.

And may God bless you.

Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament

Sirk · Feb 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

ooops....my bad.

KJV1611 · Feb 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans chapter 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. Actually, Paul is speaking to Messianic believers who are still entangled by the Law (or those trying to keep the Law of Moses). He is referring to his experience as a Jew (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey the Law. Paul gives these Messianic Jews (Who hold to the Law) the solution to overcome their struggle to keep the Law with Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).

#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.

In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."

Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.

For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).

This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.

#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.

#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.

#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.

#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.

“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).

“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).

If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-25.

Anyways, I hope this helps.

And may God bless you.

Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament

No, you're wrong. The entire bible is written to Christians, all of it. And Romans 7 has nothing to do with the law... it's about the sin that dwells in the flesh of ever human being in this world including you.

Jason0047 · Feb 9, 2015

Utah said:

You are admitting that you will be guilty of sin in the future. God's Word says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. But yet you are planning on not being perfect --- which is a direct violation of Scripture. For Scripture says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Jesus says that the Lukewarm servant will be spewed out of his mouth. Meaning, they have a lukewarm sense of morality. Jesus would prefer a person be either hot or cold. Meaning, he would prefer people to be righteous or unrighteous and not somewhere inbetween thinking they can serve two kingdoms. But Jesus says no man can serve two masters, though. For if you truly love the Lord, sin will be put out of your life in time. One will not say they will expect to sin again. That is wrong. We never plan on sinning again. Nor do we give up hope in the fact that God can perfect us.

Jason0047 · Feb 9, 2015

Code:

KJV1611 said:

Yes, it is written to Christians trying to wrongfully keep the Law. Paul is recounting his experience as a Jew to help them. Read the first few verses. Paul addresses them as those who know the Law. This is speaking to Messianic Jews who are still holding onto the Law. Paul's solution is simply just Jesus Christ alone. For it is by Jesus Christ and walking after the Spirit whereby there is no Condemnation.

Reborn · Feb 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Wow...Jason.
So wrong...so, so wrong man.
Like I said.....reconsider not teaching brother.

Just some advice........
BECAUSE THIS.... is a matter of spiritual life or death.

wattie · Feb 9, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I know this was directed at KJV1611, but I thought I'd jump in here:

'perfect' in the bible- check the Greek on which this word is based in the Strong's Concordance.

It's about maturity and completeness.. not perfect sinlessness. If a believer could truly be perfectly sinless.. they would be God. Only one being has ever been perfect and that is God- Jesus.

I think the Greek word behind perfect is 'telios'

Yah.. thought it was 'meros' but no-- telios:

G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
G5056; )

application = labour, growth, mental and moral character.. related to being of full age, completeness. Perfect in the sense of something in the past that has come to maturity. 'Perfected'.

E.g. John has perfected the art of making scones. Does that mean that his scone making is absolutely perfect in a no mistakes sense.. or that he has completely learned it and is proficient at it?

Tired of the Big LIE

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