Tired of the Big LIE

[Word_Swordsman]

What's the difference between the carnal man and the natural man? Carnal means physical doesn't it?

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A natural man doesn't pick up on spiritual things. He is in danger of going wrong by carnal thinking. Romans 8:5-8 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Jason0047]

There are certain OSAS proponents who believe that only the man of the flesh (outward man) sins. They claim that the man of the flesh (our bodies) will be destroyed but our inner man will go to Heaven. This is nowhere to be found in Scripture. In fact, 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 lets us know that every sin is done without the body but fornication (a specific particular sin) is done towards the body. Jesus says when a person looks upon a woman in lust they have committed adultery already in their heart. This is not talking about their physical heart but it is talking about the inward man. They are sinning inwardly. For Jesus said in Matthew 23:27-28 that the Pharisees appeared to be outwardly righteus but inwardly they were full of iniquity. Iniquity is sin.

I mean, when Adam and Eve sinned, they did not die right away. They died spiritually whereby they needed a Savior to save them spiritually. Nothing has changed. We still need a spiritual savior and if we sin, it can effect us spiritually just like it did with Adam and Eve. For God is not a respecter of persons.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

There are certain OSAS proponents who believe that only the man of the flesh (outward man) sins. They claim that the man of the flesh (our bodies) will be destroyed but our inner man will go to Heaven. This is nowhere to be found in Scripture. In fact, 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 lets us know that every sin is done without the body but fornication (a specific particular sin) is done towards the body. Jesus says when a person looks upon a woman in lust they have committed adultery already in their heart. This is not talking about their physical heart but it is talking about the inward man. They are sinning inwardly. For Jesus said in Matthew 23:27-28 that the Pharisees appeared to be outwardly righteus but inwardly they were full of iniquity. Iniquity is sin.

"Iniquity" literally means "inequity" or "unequalness":

Ezekiel chapter 18

[23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
[27] Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
[28] Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[29] Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
[30] Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
[32] For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Those who truly have "a new heart and a new spirit" will no longer continue in "iniquity" or "inequity" in that their ways will be "equal" to God's ways.

A lot of people are going to be "weighed in the balance and found wanting" on that fearful and dreadful day.

Anyhow, "the Lord" certainly didn't preach "once saved, always saved" through Ezekiel...

 

[KJV1611]

So there it says your flesh walks in the law of sin. Then Paul progresses from playing the part of a wretched sinner in Romans 7:24 (KJV) [SUP]24 [/SUP] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? to a promise of deliverance from the inner war. We need all thew words of 25. Romans 7:25 (KJV) [SUP]25 [/SUP] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So now comes Jesus finding me ready to be delivered from my flesh serving sin, which is not how God wants to leave us.

Romans 8:1 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Suddenly he is delivered from the flesh serving the law of sin, now walking in the Spirit. The flesh is now dead to the law of sin.

Romans 8:2 (KJV) [SUP]2 [/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


All of the two chapters deals not with what the law did to us (the law is holy) and with being delivered from the effect of the knowledge of sin by the Mosaic law of sin and death, which makes sin come alive is us, into the law of life in Christ. Starting at 7:1 confirms the actual topic.

By saying you like being in the situation described in chapter 7, then you would have to be still under sin coming back from the grave. Chapter 8 is how the New Covenant changes us out of the Rom 7 quagmire. An example of the extent of the change is Romans 8:13-14 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [SUP]14 [/SUP] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The flesh no longer ruling or behaving on it's own cognizance by killing deeds of the flesh through the Spirit. That's necessary to live, not die spiritually. In other words, salvation is not based on something we do one day in our lives, but what we hold onto all our days. We changed masters, so we let our new master rule, which is heavy on ridding us of sin. Anyone with a body that pursues sin will not live eternally. Believing you can have a saved spiritman while the flesh is rebellious is not scriptural. We can't excuse the spirit because of misbehavior of soul and/or body. The body does nothing without the soul directing. A soul without a functioning spirit won't ever stumble upon righteousness, as without Christ our spirit is dead to God, can't "know" what it ought to know. Once the spirit of man is made alive by the presence of the Holy Spirit in us, it will then "know" spiritual things, then influence the soul (mind) to use the body to the glory of God.

If that person later falls into temptation, then pursues living according to the flesh once again, the incorruptible seed of the Holy Spirit will not remain. God departs from sin. So choose to remain born again by the way of the Bible.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) [SUP]23 [/SUP] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


"Born again" comes by the word of God, like faith comes by the Word of God. Continue on, Christians, feeding spirit, soul and body with much reading of the Word of God, doing the word you learn. That enables us to kill the deeds of the flesh, then produce fruit of the Spirit more and more.

Is that works unto salvation? No. That is what a regenerated believer does rather than do unrighteousness. It is our lifestyle that proves which master is really our master.

Simple question is Paul role playing in verse 25 or does he really serve the law with his mind and the law of sin with his flesh?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Jason0047]

Simple question is Paul role playing in verse 25 or does he really serve the law with his mind and the law of sin with his flesh?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Which would be a contradiction (if he was speaking as a Christian) because the previous chapter Paul says he is not under the Law but under grace (Romans 6:15). Paul also says in Galatians 5 that those who seek to be justified by the Law have fallen from grace. So Paul is talking about his experience BEFORE he became a Christian. The solution to Romans chapter 7 is Romans 8:1. It is the climax of the point Paul was trying to make. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" (Romans 8:3).

 

[Word_Swordsman]

What can I say???? There are only two men, the flesh man and the spirit man. There is no spirit man until the second birth.

The Bible says God made man in his image and likeness. That means like it does for us, a child resembling father in appearance and manner of being. God is a spirit, but presents to men as having physical attributes like men.

God formed man using soil, like a potter makes a vase out of clay, then put his likeness in the man with a breath into him.
Body came first, then the inner man consisting of spiritman and soul (mind). Adam started off with a living spirit, but died spiritually upon sinning. From then on each person is born with a spirit that is dead towards God, unknowing of spiritual things, leaving us all natural men. Hearing the word of God makes possible believing on Christ by faith generated by that word. The Holy Spirit then enters and the spiritman is reborn to live spiritually toward God. If there is no spirit initially, then there's nothing to be born again, nothing to regenerate, to make alive.

 

[Jeff_56]

good, in part anyway. i was concerned you had fallen for the heresy of the romans , the heresy that fills the earth and is completely corrupt and has played the harlot with all the nations. 'they' are allowed to post here, and frequently do(pretending not to be heretics) , as long as
it's not overtly(obviously) promoting their heresy and adultery.

that not being the case for these posts we're dealing with, (whew!) (thankfully ! )

I simply believe Jesus when He says, you must be born again.

and all the other scripture re the new spirit, new life, new creation both now at this time , and for the future, yahweh willing.

I believe that when we finally let go and let God take over our lives, then the new man is formed in us. But this is only a shadow of the actual birth of the spiritual man which takes place when the body of Christ is completed.

I don't pay attention to what churches and religions say so I can't answer that part. I quit listening to preachers when they started telling me my bible was full of errors and I can't trust it.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

What can I say????

More nonsense, apparently:

There are only two men, the flesh man and the spirit man. There is no spirit man until the second birth.

No, there is only ONE MAN and he is comprised of spirit, soul and body:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

Man's BODY was formed of the dust of the ground, his SPIRIT was breathed into him by the LORD and man became a living SOUL.

Man's "inner man" consists of his spirit and of his soul and his "outer man" consists of his body, BUT IT'S STILL ONE MAN.

This "dual nature" garbage stems mostly from a terrible "translation" (read "personal interpretation") in the NIV (and other versions as well) where the underlying Greek word "sarx" which simply means "flesh" is "translated" as "sinful nature".

I don't know about you, friend, but I don't have TWO NATURES.

No, having been born again and indwelt by the Spirit of God, I have but ONE NATURE.

Again, Paul regularly used the words "flesh", "circumcision", "law" and "bondage" INTERCHANGEABLY in his epistles in that an UNREGENERATE MAN who only has a CIRCUMCISION in the foreskin of his FLESH can never keep the spiritual LAW (Romans 7:14) of a Spirit God (John 4:24) in that he needs to be born again or CIRCUMCISED IN HIS SPIRIT in order to do the same as his FLESHLY CIRCUMCISION UNDER THE LAW WILL ONLY LEAVE HIM IN BONDAGE TO SIN...just as Paul was describing in relation to himself AS AN UNREGENERATE MAN in Romans chapter 7.

 

[KJV1611]

There are certain OSAS proponents who believe that only the man of the flesh (outward man) sins. They claim that the man of the flesh (our bodies) will be destroyed but our inner man will go to Heaven. This is nowhere to be found in Scripture. In fact, 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 lets us know that every sin is done without the body but fornication (a specific particular sin) is done towards the body. Jesus says when a person looks upon a woman in lust they have committed adultery already in their heart. This is not talking about their physical heart but it is talking about the inward man. They are sinning inwardly. For Jesus said in Matthew 23:27-28 that the Pharisees appeared to be outwardly righteus but inwardly they were full of iniquity. Iniquity is sin.

Have you ever looked at a woman and lusted? Or a car or house? Do you still do it now?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Sorry to tell you but 1 John says - Beloved NOW we are the sons of God . . . Ephesians 2:6 states in the past tense that we are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus - (this is a figure of speech) - stated in the past tense as already occurred because of the certainty that it will . . . we believe in the Son of God - we HAVE eternal life John 3:16.

Secondly, if they were sincere in their repentance and their confession of Jesus Christ as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead - they are saved. They have been born again of the Spirit and SEALED with that Spirit until the day of redemption - that is what scripture says. All the things you are talking about are works of the flesh - the flesh profits us nothing and in the flesh is no good thing - Ya think God knows that? - He did write the book! Our salvation is secure in Christ - Please note I said OUR SALVATION. Now we are to align our walk with our confession of faith - that will take until the day we are rid of this earthly body - this body of death.

Our SALVATION IS THROUGH AND BECAUSE OF THE OBEDIENCE OF CHRIST. Our walk is a whole other thing which I explained in another post but here is part of it again - in case you missed it: #261

Anything we do in the flesh - in our walk, rather good or bad, will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ. Those "bad things" we have done and have not asked forgiveness for will burn, those "good things" we have done will remain. At the end of it all - we will be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

1 Corinthians 3:13-16 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for he day shall declare it because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is (good or bad). If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (of rewards) but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

I also know the following verses - no need to point them out and I know that we should walk worthy of our calling but the point is some will walk better than others. The "fire" will sort it out!

Amen....Thank the Lord for the sealing of the Holy Spirit and the birth from above.....the prepayment of our eternal inheritance.........thank God we can know that we are currently possessing eternal life dia Jesus!

1 Timothy 4:8


For bodily exercise profitet little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.



( Life that now is; physical, and which is to come; spiritual eternal life )



1 Timothy 6:12


Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, where unto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many
witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19


Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10


Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.




Titus 1:2


In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7


That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




1 Peter 1:4-5


to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.




1 Peter 1:9


Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




1 Peter 5:10


But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.




2 Peter 1:10-11


Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.




Jude 1:21


Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[Jason0047]

Have you ever looked at a woman and lusted? Or a car or house? Do you still do it now?

Not habitually all the time as a way of life. No. A person is changed spiritually when they accept Jesus Christ and repent of their sins. They are born again. If a believer struggles with a sin, they need to confess that sin and forsake it with God's help and with the help of the church (praying for them). It is not considered a normal thing for a believer to sin habitually... no. Yes, God's people can make mistakes. David surely made some really big mistakes or sins. But David did not continue to live a life that was immoral all the time. There is a difference. For there is no Condemnation to those who walk after the Spirit (in Christ Jesus) (Romans 8:1). But if you walk after the flesh, there is death and there is Condemnation. The Condemnation is defined for us in John 3:19-21.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Simple question is Paul role playing in verse 25 or does he really serve the law with his mind and the law of sin with his flesh?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul was not "role playing".

Rather, he was using what is known as a "historical present" and that which is used elsewhere in the New Testament as well.

Look into it...

 

[KJV1611]

Not habitually all the time as a way of life. No. A person is changed spiritually when they accept Jesus Christ and repent of their sins. They are born again. If a believer struggles with a sin, they need to confess that sin and forsake it with God's help and with the help of the church (praying for them). It is not considered a normal thing for a believer to sin habitually... no. Yes, God's people can make mistakes. David surely made some really big mistakes or sins. But David did not continue to live a life that was immoral all the time. There is a difference. For there is no Condemnation to those who walk after the Spirit (in Christ Jesus) (Romans 8:1). But if you walk after the flesh, there is death and there is Condemnation. The Condemnation is defined for us in John 3:19-21.

What about Solomon one of the Holy men of God that God used to write part of the bible and then fell into sin... did he go to hell?

 

[kennethcadwell]

What about Solomon one of the Holy men of God that God used to write part of the bible and then fell into sin... did he go to hell?

That is up to debate as some say Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes, and others say he didn't.
I for one believe he wrote it, and therefore if that is the case then we have his repentance in verses 3:15 and 12:9-14.

 

[KJV1611]

Paul was not "role playing".

Rather, he was using what is known as a "historical present" and that which is used elsewhere in the New Testament as well.

Look into it...

What evidence do you have that Paul was using "historical present"? What I'm getting at is why don't you believe Paul meant exactly what he said?

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Jason0047]

What about Solomon one of the Holy men of God that God used to write part of the bible and then fell into sin... did he go to hell?

Yes, I believe Solomon was saved. See my thread here.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105157-solomon-saved.html

However, I believe Solomon and Samson are rare examples of how some believers will make into the Kingdom by the skin of their teeth. They exist to show that there is hope for those rare few who do struggle with sin like the Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on him in being a sinner in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). However, they are not the standard or model we are to emulate, though. Christ is our model (and image we are to conform to); Not Samson and not Solomon. Never are we told in the Scriptures that their life is an example for the OT saint and or for the NT saint today. Never do the Scriptures say we can live a lifestyle of habitual sin and still be saved. There is no excuse for a believer in living in habitual sin. They will not make it into God's kingdom if they are living in such a way. Paul says several times that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul also essentially says to Timothy that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

 

[Utah]

So how long has it been since the last time you sinned?

And that, my friend, is the million dollar question.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

So you believe you can be out of fellowship with Christ but yet you still have the Holy Spirit and can sin while having the Spirit and it is okay to God? That would be like God dwelling in the devil while he did bad things. Such a thing would not be possible because God does not condone the evil actions of others. God is Holy and good. If you don't have fellowship with the Son there is no life is what 1 John 5:12 says. There is not another verse that nullifies 1 John 5:12. He that does not have the Son does not have life. Period. There is no need to add to that verse. 1 John 5:12 stands on it's own just fine.

I believe that a person is actually BORN AGAIN of the Spirit. That "incorruptible seed" is born within a person . . . That is salvation. God chose the words "born again" for a reason. The spirit, the new man, the new creation is created in the image of him [God] who created him [the new man]. That image of God is Spirit, Spirit is eternal. God created "spirit", He created "seed" to place within a believer - that is what makes one a child of God.

Is it okay to God for us to sin? Of course, not - it grieves him.

"That would be like God dwelling in the devil while he did bad things." That is ridiculous . . . One is either the child of the devil or the child of God - We don't and can't have two Fathers. Just as you are your earthly father's child - NOTHING can change that - your earthly father's "seed" is in you - you can't take it out, you can't do anything about it and you sure can't be "fathered" by another - You can go and change your name but it doesn't change who you are - you still have your father's "seed" within you. God created "spirit", He created "seed" to place within a believer - that is what makes one a child of God.

I did not add to 1 John 5:12 - How does this ADD to the verse? A person that is born again has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them through the "incorruptible seed" that God placed within that person by BIRTH. If a person has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them then they HAVE THE SON and they have ETERNAL life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What evidence do you have that Paul was using "historical present"? What I'm getting at is why don't you believe Paul meant exactly what he said?

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Apostle Paul was showing between Romans 7 and Romans 8 his transition into becoming a believer, to becoming a mature believer in the faith in chapter 8. We know this because in verse 7:14 he calls himself still carnally minded, and then in 8:1 he shows that their is no longer any condemnation for those who stop walking carnally minded to walking completely in the Spirit. In verse 8:6 he gives the reason for this transition, because he says there that to be carnally minded will lead to death ( lake of fire ).

 

[Jason0047]

What evidence do you have that Paul was using "historical present"? What I'm getting at is why don't you believe Paul meant exactly what he said?

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 13:2-3, 11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18). In other words, Paul is talking about his own experience but it is his experience in the past (i.e. past present experience) before he became a Christian (i.e. when he was a Jew who struggled to be justified by the Law).

Source:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
(Note: I do not believe exactly like this person does on this point; But I agree with portions of what they had written).