Tired of the Big LIE

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kennethcadwell

Guest
I believe that a person is actually BORN AGAIN of the Spirit. That "incorruptible seed" is born within a person . . . That is salvation. God chose the words "born again" for a reason. The spirit, the new man, the new creation is created in the image of him [God] who created him [the new man]. That image of God is Spirit, Spirit is eternal. God created "spirit", He created "seed" to place within a believer - that is what makes one a child of God.

Is it okay to God for us to sin? Of course, not - it grieves him.

"That would be like God dwelling in the devil while he did bad things." That is ridiculous . . . One is either the child of the devil or the child of God - We don't and can't have two Fathers. Just as you are your earthly father's child - NOTHING can change that - your earthly father's "seed" is in you - you can't take it out, you can't do anything about it and you sure can't be "fathered" by another - You can go and change your name but it doesn't change who you are - you still have your father's "seed" within you. God created "spirit", He created "seed" to place within a believer - that is what makes one a child of God.

I did not add to 1 John 5:12 - How does this ADD to the verse? A person that is born again has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them through the "incorruptible seed" that God placed within that person by BIRTH. If a person has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them then they HAVE THE SON and they have ETERNAL life.


I am glad you are here, go and read post #470 as I posted a few scriptures that show that eternal life is not a physical possession of ours now. It is a mental assurance (echo) that we will have it, and the scripture you used have echo, and pisteuo in it. And pisteuo is a continuation of belief leading to something, and in our case it is salvation.

Plus you have to consider the objective words that are in those scriptures like the one you gave in John 3:16; should, may, might, will, and others that all point to receiving it depending on obedience in the faith........
 
Jul 22, 2014
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And that, my friend, is the million dollar question.
Jesus is the standard and model we are to emulate. It's not me. I am nothing. Christ is everything. For if I say I have not sinned in five years, then I would be boasting. If I said I sinned five minutes ago, then you would no doubt be laughing and not believe that a true believer can be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect as the Lord commanded us. For if you walk after the flesh, you shall die. But if you walk after the Spirit in Christ Jesus there is no Condemnation. If we do sin, we have an advocate named Jesus Christ that we can go to (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9); And all unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:16-17).
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 13:2-3, 11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18). In other words, Paul is talking about his own experience but it is his experience in the past (i.e. past present experience) before he became a Christian (i.e. when he was a Jew who struggled to be justified by the Law).

Source:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
(Note: I do not believe exactly like this person does on this point; But I agree with portions of what they had written).

I do not believe that Romans 7 is Paul speaking of just being an unbeliever, and before he became a Christian.
I take chapter 7 as his transition from unbelief to belief, and the struggle that all new converts face at first by trying to put off their sinful ways to walk in the Spirit. And those two natures will war against each other until one reaches maturity in the Spirit, which is where chapter 8 comes in as Paul is now a mature Christian walking in the Spirit and no longer carnally minded.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Ding, ding, ding, I get it now... You works salvation, lose your salvation guys think that walking after the spirit means that you stop sinning. That's not what it means at all friends, it means you stop trying to please God through the flesh i.e. your own works. The very thing you are doing and trying to convince us grace people to do, is to please God through YOUR works. You are walking in the flesh.

That's why you guys have to say that Paul was talking from his unsaved position... you have to change the meaning to make the bible line up with your false doctrine.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I believe that a person is actually BORN AGAIN of the Spirit. That "incorruptible seed" is born within a person . . . That is salvation. God chose the words "born again" for a reason. The spirit, the new man, the new creation is created in the image of him [God] who created him [the new man]. That image of God is Spirit, Spirit is eternal. God created "spirit", He created "seed" to place within a believer - that is what makes one a child of God.

Is it okay to God for us to sin? Of course, not - it grieves him.

"That would be like God dwelling in the devil while he did bad things." That is ridiculous . . . One is either the child of the devil or the child of God - We don't and can't have two Fathers. Just as you are your earthly father's child - NOTHING can change that - your earthly father's "seed" is in you - you can't take it out, you can't do anything about it and you sure can't be "fathered" by another - You can go and change your name but it doesn't change who you are - you still have your father's "seed" within you. God created "spirit", He created "seed" to place within a believer - that is what makes one a child of God.

I did not add to 1 John 5:12 - How does this ADD to the verse? A person that is born again has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them through the "incorruptible seed" that God placed within that person by BIRTH. If a person has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them then they HAVE THE SON and they have ETERNAL life.

You have this false notion or belief that once you are born of incorruptible seed you cannot fall away. Try reading the Parable of the Sower. Not everyone who received the seed of the Word had produced much fruit.

As for 1 John 5:12: Well, you are adding to that verse. Again, you are not quoting the part of the verse you prefer not to see. "...he that does not have the Son does not have life." (1 John 5:12). If you don't have the Son, you don't have life. It is pretty basic and simple to me. You need the Son to have life. No Son = No life. One is not saved if they don't have life.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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More nonsense, apparently:
And there you have it friends, a person who states he doesn't sin but shows his sin first hand right here! JIS shows contempt for others by looking down his prideful nose and through his prideful heart rather than bearing fruit of the Spirit -- kindness, gentleness, humility. We who are on bended knee know we are sinners, but not our 21st Century Pharisee.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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Jesus is the standard and model we are to emulate. It's not me. I am nothing. Christ is everything. For if I say I have not sinned in five years, then I would be boasting. If I said I sinned five minutes ago, then you would no doubt be laughing and not believe that a true believer can be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect as the Lord commanded us. For if you walk after the flesh, you shall die. But if you walk after the Spirit in Christ Jesus there is no Condemnation. If we do sin, we have an advocate named Jesus Christ that we can go to (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9); And all unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:16-17).
You just sinned by making a false accusation of me. I would not laugh. Try again.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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And there you have it friends, a person who states he doesn't sin but shows his sin first hand right here! JIS shows contempt for others by looking down his prideful nose and through his prideful heart rather than bearing fruit of the Spirit -- kindness, gentleness, humility. We who are on bended knee know we are sinners, but not our 21st Century Pharisee.
That's why God hates works salvation... it's the biggest puffer upper I've ever seen. It's also the reason I hated Christians before I got saved.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Ding, ding, ding, I get it now... You works salvation, lose your salvation guys think that walking after the spirit means that you stop sinning. That's not what it means at all friends, it means you stop trying to please God through the flesh i.e. your own works. The very thing you are doing and trying to convince us grace people to do, is to please God through YOUR works. You are walking in the flesh.

That's why you guys have to say that Paul was talking from his unsaved position... you have to change the meaning to make the bible line up with your false doctrine.
Well, I don't believe in Works Salvationism so you can stop with the excuses in trying to justify a doctrine that leads people to think they can sin and still be saved. God does the good work within you. The answer is.... "not you." Paul said he labored more than his brethren, but he did not give himself the credit but he gave God's grace the credit. The elders cast down their crowns before Jesus. But they earned those crowns, didn't they? Then why on Earth would they cast their crowns down before Jesus in Revelation? Because Christ (God) is the one who works in the believer (Philippians 2:13). We are saved not by going out tomorrow and doing more works or performing a "To-Do-List." We are saved when we repent of our sins and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. If we slip up into sin, we can confess our sins and we are cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). We forsake our sin because we have been born again spiritually. If one is still living a life of habitual sin and they are no different than the way they used to be (Before they were a believer), then they are no born again. They are still only born once. They have not changed. They are still the old man and not the new man. But works do not save you in and of itself, though. Works is just the proof in the pudding that God lives within you (Who is the source of your salvation). For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Ding, ding, ding, I get it now... You works salvation, lose your salvation guys think that walking after the spirit means that you stop sinning. That's not what it means at all friends, it means you stop trying to please God through the flesh i.e. your own works. The very thing you are doing and trying to convince us grace people to do, is to please God through YOUR works. You are walking in the flesh.

That's why you guys have to say that Paul was talking from his unsaved position... you have to change the meaning to make the bible line up with your false doctrine.

Once again I would say I do not agree that chapter 7 refers to a pre-Christian position.
I believe what Paul is showing us is the battle all new converts face when becoming a Christian, and your new Spiritual mindset will war against the fleshly lusts that you walked in. Chapter 8 he shows is transition into maturity, and states that if he kept walking carnally minded it will lead to death (second death in the lake of fire). He is making another point between the two chapters that born again believers can not serve flesh (sins) and serve the Lord (walk in the Spirit).
Over and over again the bible states that you can not continue to give into worldly lusts, and end up with the gift of eternal life both. You can not serve two masters !!!
 
Jul 22, 2014
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You just sinned by making a false accusation of me. I would not laugh. Try again.
First, what false accusation did I make against you? I didn't see anything in my post that mentions you by name. I was speaking in general terms with the word "you." I was not speaking to you specifically. Second, you did not address any of the verses I brought up in my post.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
To get salvation/eternal life is a two way street, and not a one way road.....
I know some do not like to look at this way, but this showed all through out the new testament that we play a role in our salvation through the Lord. Take this scripture from the Apostle Paul to the Apostle Timothy;

1 Timothy 4:16


Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

No, it is a one way road, and in fact, straight and narrow.


The law should prove to you that there is NOTHING you can do to add to what Christ did. But some do not want to admit that, and thus have not repented.

To others, we enter the narrow gate, through the blood of Christ.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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That's why God hates works salvation... it's the biggest puffer upper I've ever seen.
It's also the reason I hated Christians before I got saved.
Dear Brother, do you realize what a powerful statement you've just made? It is utterly heartbreaking to think Christians instill hate in others. Imagine how God grieves over this.

I rejoice that you overcame their shortfalls. God bless you!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
First, being penitent would involve confessing your sins. Confessing and repenting of your sins is not a work. It is throwing yourself done before God's mercy. For you did not do nothing when you came to the faith. You had to take action. Did your action to receive Christ save you? I can label your action to accept and believe in Christ as a work too. For it is something that you do, right?

Second, I do not believe in Works Salvationism. I am saved right here and right now by God's grace. If I slip up, I confess and forsake my sin with God's help. I don't continue to live in sin as a way of life or minimize sin. Sin is very serious. It put Jesus Christ on the cross. I believe good works are not done so as to be saved but they are merely the proof in the pudding that God lives within you (Who is.the source of your salvation).

Third, I don't claim to be perfect, either. There are times I make mistakes. The difference between us is that your OSAS Teaching minimizes sin because you tell only half the story. For if you say your future sin is forgiven, and don't say a true believer must live righteously and with a broken heart before God, you are telling people that they have a license to sin (Whether you agree or not).

so, you have fulfilled the law in yourself. after you were so called saved by grace.

sounds alot like begining in the spirit, and being perfected in the flesh to me..

no different than what the jews tried to instill in the church in pauls day. same old legalistic gospel of works.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Well, I don't believe in Works Salvationism so you can stop with the excuses in trying to justify a doctrine that leads people to think they can sin and still be saved. God does the good work within you. The answer is.... "not you." Paul said he labored more than his brethren, but he did not give himself the credit but he gave God's grace the credit. The elders cast down their crowns before Jesus. But they earned those crowns, didn't they? Then why on Earth would they cast their crowns down before Jesus in Revelation? Because Christ (God) is the one who works in the believer (Philippians 2:13). We are saved not by going out tomorrow and doing more works or performing a "To-Do-List." We are saved when we repent of our sins and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. If we slip up into sin, we can confess our sins and we are cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). We forsake our sin because we have been born again spiritually. If one is still living a life of habitual sin and they are no different than the way they used to be (Before they were a believer), then they are no born again. They are still only born once. They have not changed. They are still the old man and not the new man. But works do not save you in and of itself, though. Works is just the proof in the pudding that God lives within you (Who is the source of your salvation). For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).
Paul told us that WE DON'T SIN ANYMORE AFTER WE ARE IN CHRIST.... we are free in Christ! Stop trying to change what the bible really says and stop trying to keep people in bondage that Christ set us free from.

You preach works salvation whether you admit it or not... and I hate to be rude to people but your beliefs and insistence on putting guilt trips on blood bought born again believers infuriates me!
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Once again I would say I do not agree that chapter 7 refers to a pre-Christian position.
I believe what Paul is showing us is the battle all new converts face when becoming a Christian, and your new Spiritual mindset will war against the fleshly lusts that you walked in. Chapter 8 he shows is transition into maturity, and states that if he kept walking carnally minded it will lead to death (second death in the lake of fire). He is making another point between the two chapters that born again believers can not serve flesh (sins) and serve the Lord (walk in the Spirit).
Over and over again the bible states that you can not continue to give into worldly lusts, and end up with the gift of eternal life both. You can not serve two masters !!!
Paul was mature in Chapter 7. Paul himself said HE serves the law of sin in his flesh.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest

No, it is a one way road, and in fact, straight and narrow.


The law should prove to you that there is NOTHING you can do to add to what Christ did. But some do not want to admit that, and thus have not repented.

To others, we enter the narrow gate, through the blood of Christ.

The bible constantly says to build on the foundation, and to make your election sure by continuing in the faith.
It does not anywhere say sit back relax, and do nothing because you already have salvation eternal life. Go read post #470 as there is a few scriptures that show that salvation/eternal life is not a physical possession of ours right now. It is a mental possession of assurance that you will receive it by standing/staying firm in the faith. This goes hand and hand with pisteuo and echo, and it also makes people start looking at the objective words in the other scriptures; should, may, might, will, and so on. Those words in those scriptures make the receiving into a condition based on staying faithful....
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Dear Brother, do you realize what a powerful statement you've just made? It is utterly heartbreaking to think Christians instill hate in others. Imagine how God grieves over this.

I rejoice that you overcame their shortfalls. God bless you!
Trust me that's how most of the world feels about Christians. It goes back to the puffed up thing. Hey I'm a filthy, low down, dirty, rotten, good for nothing sinner just like all my unsaved friends and I don't try to pretend that I'm now perfect. The only difference between me and them is the blood of Christ on my life.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Paul told us that WE DON'T SIN ANYMORE AFTER WE ARE IN CHRIST.... we are free in Christ! Stop trying to change what the bible really says and stop trying to keep people in bondage that Christ set us free from.

You preach works salvation whether you admit it or not... and I hate to be rude to people but your beliefs and insistence on putting guilt trips on blood bought born again believers infuriates me!
Blood bought? Let's see what the Scriptures say about the blood and how you live as a believer.

"...if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

However,

"If we say that have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).

Also, Paul's description of freedom in Christ does not include sinning. Romans 6:15 says you cannot sin just because you are not under the Law of Moses. However, God is not immoral. We still obey the moral law because love fulfills the Law.
 
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Feb 21, 2012
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I am glad you are here, go and read post #470 as I posted a few scriptures that show that eternal life is not a physical possession of ours now. It is a mental assurance (echo) that we will have it, and the scripture you used have echo, and pisteuo in it. And pisteuo is a continuation of belief leading to something, and in our case it is salvation.

Plus you have to consider the objective words that are in those scriptures like the one you gave in John 3:16; should, may, might, will, and others that all point to receiving it depending on obedience in the faith........
So what you are putting forth is that when we believe; we are not actually born of the Spirit? That when we believe in the only begotten Son of God, confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe God raised him from the dead - God does not actually create [birth] in us spirit, the new man, the inner man, "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit" - and that He didn't actually mean it when He promised those that believe will have eternal life? We are talking about salvation here and not a person's walk after being born again - Correct?