Big Bang Biblical???

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Jan 8, 2009
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The speed of light slowing idea to prove a young earth is as flawed as the evolutionists who date things to be billions of years old based upon assumption that 'things have always been so'.
The assumption is that light has always been slowing and that is not the case.
The speed of light varies with motion and a range of other things.
To say it is slowing and assuming it has been slowing at this rate for the past x years, does not prove a young earth.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
the speed of light is not slowing. The c-decaying theory is even disputed within the creationist community, saying that the universe may appear to be billions of light years old but is actually only thousands. This theory is full of holes and disputes Einsteins famous theory of E=mc^2.

This theory was made from taking different known measurements of the speed of light through out history, however his theory is dependant on the the first measurement being an out lier, Alas this measurement was taken in the 1600's with less than satisfactory equipment and is most likely not accurate.

Any hoo the earth is probably much older than 6000 years as carbon dating has shown us that the materials of earth have been here for a much longer period of time than us.

Scientific evidence cant always be 100% correct but it attempts to explain the processes of the world and the universe and, well, sometimes its just logical.
What do you do with the fact that atomic time is changing in relation to orbital time?
Or that the red shift we absorb is actually quantised?

If Earth is near the centre of the universe time will go differently than objects at the edge of the universe. Many ungodly scientists have conceded that the speed of light is not constant.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
Back onto the big bang

If the big bang theory is correct, then as to explain the creation of our solar system one would only have to take a astronomy 101 course at the most. Our solar system was created from a nebula which was spinning and due to gravity was contracting. This caused the nebula to spin faster, and molecules of gas began colliding which created heat. As well the spinning caused the nebula to flatten into a "disc"( explaining why all planets orbit on the same plane). the gases eventually combined to make a sun, planets and other bodies. So now earth is born, but where does life come from? god?

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/ribonucleotides/

Above is an article outlining an experiment where scientists created (very simple) life, simply by recreating the conditions of earth. This experiment makes evolution a very plausible idea as the earth is very very very old and these RNAs would have self replicated probably quite a few times in the billions of years the Earth has been around
First, they created small bits of genetic materials. If you study the complexity and delicacy of life, that is not enough. Also, life is defined by more than self-duplication.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
........indra......there is no evidence because there wasn't a guy sitting on a little stool taking notes the whole time? there is evidence in the redshift noted first through the Hubble, there is a growing body of evidence that can be found in the increasing power of our particle accelerators which come closer and closer to the initial conditions of the universe.
you use an extremely narrow minded approach to identifying the beauty around you. why for instance is venus covered in clouds of sulfuric acid. why are we the only planet in our observable universe that seems to bear life. why can barren and desolate planets be found at whim. with the trillions of stars is it not even possible to you that this could be an oops?

http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/cobe/
So, if you believe that, what do you think will happen if they actually created a mini-big bang. Mini is a relative term.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
actually, one intersting possibility is that light was very fast originally and started decaying from the fall; entropy would have started at this time as well

Isaiah 24

3The land shall be utterly emptied and utterly despoiled; for the LORD hath spoken this word.

4The earth mourneth and fadeth away; the world languisheth and fadeth away; the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

12In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.

19The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21And it shall come to pass in that day that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23Then the moon shall be confounded and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders gloriously.

Romans 8

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
actually, one intersting possibility is that light was very fast originally and started decaying from the fall; entropy would have started at this time as well

Isaiah 24

3The land shall be utterly emptied and utterly despoiled; for the LORD hath spoken this word.

4The earth mourneth and fadeth away; the world languisheth and fadeth away; the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

12In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.

19The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21And it shall come to pass in that day that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23Then the moon shall be confounded and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders gloriously.

Romans 8

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Excellent.

That is correct.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
What do you do with the fact that atomic time is changing in relation to orbital time?
Or that the red shift we observe is actually quantised?

If Earth is near the centre of the universe time will go differently than objects at the edge of the universe. Many ungodly scientists have conceded that the speed of light is not constant.
correction.............................
 
Nov 11, 2009
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What do you do with the fact that atomic time is changing in relation to orbital time?
Or that the red shift we absorb is actually quantised?

If Earth is near the centre of the universe time will go differently than objects at the edge of the universe. Many ungodly scientists have conceded that the speed of light is not constant.
first of all lets look at the idea the the red shift that occurs in light that we receive from faraway galaxies is quantized. to be fair lets look at the idea of quantization. this is an idea that there is a base discrete amount in any unit of measurement of which no smaller amount can exist. light under the photon model is quantized.

here when you refer to quantization of the redshift you are referring to the fact that in some studies it has been found that the redshift is represented as a multiple of a certain number. this indicates either distance is quantized, which is seemingly unrealistic, or our understanding of redshift is false, which would indicate that the big bang model is incorrect.

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/..._paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf

this study is what im sure you meant to reference, however there are obvious flaws that can be found in his derivation of 72km/s as an interval of redshift.
in the preface of one of the leading proponents of this idea the basis of his research is based on the lack of evidence for dark matter.

the study was published in 1995, 14 years ago. the below link highlights some of the compelling evidence for dark matter. Tifft might not have even undertaken the study today.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...=1067350&md5=19f0e3bf116dabe0d01c7c8bf0f447cb



now onto more of the technical flaws in the theory.

citing some recent studies by reputable scientists:

In 2002, Hawkins et al. found no evidence for a redshift quantization in the 2dF survey and found using Napier's own guidelines for testing redshift periodicity that none, in fact, could be detected in the sample:

.. used the publicly available data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey and 2dF QSO redshift survey to test the hypothesis that QSOs are ejected from active galaxies with periodic noncosmological redshifts. For two different intrinsic redshift models, [..] and find there is no evidence for a periodicity at the predicted frequency in log(1+z), or at any other frequency. "[6]

and the slight quantization observed is shown through 3d representation to be a geometrical phenomenon. it does not indicate a problem with hubbles law v=HD.


Secondly i have not seen evidence that many ungodly scientists have accepted that light is slowing down. i have of course researched Barry Setterfields ideas which can be found here:

http://www.setterfield.org/

a link i already posted can be found here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c-decay.html

now the following link lists some above points that are not rebutted at all in a response given by Barry here:

http://www.trueorigin.org/ca_bs_02.asp

the first issue not addressed in the response:
the publication of FIVE different r^2 values, which as im sure you know reference the accuracy of data points as they pertain to the best model. over the course of several revisions this was changed from 1.0000000 to .986, a significant change.

the second issue is the graph itself. he asserts the speed of light decreases exponentially as time progresses from zero. however in the first few days he asserts it must not change as God wouldnt let it decay as he worked. the points proceed to cross the modeled regression to the right and then magically join back up.

a quote "I will assume that this value held from the time of creation until the time of the fall, as in my opinion the Creator would not have allowed it to decay during His initial work."

so mathematically the graph bears no logical footing.

now none of this is really shocking, some manipulation of r values that were false and a belief in his faith that he used to model his graph.

the basic fault is that to plot the changing c value he used points from the 1600s. not only that he used WRONG values from the 1600s.

http://adsbit.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/n...er=YES&page=122&epage=122&send=PRINT&ext=.pdf

please note the error involved in the first table in this study.

in short he used a study in which the following was concluded
"The best fit occurs at zero where the light travel time is identical to the currently accepted value value."

reworking data is one thing, but setterfield actually used the data to false ends and his first value is inaccurate.

Finally please read the last two paragraphs of the second of this article:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c-decay.html
 
Nov 11, 2009
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and perhaps the most ridiculous thing about the theory you believe is that setterfeild announced that the speed of light has now reached a minimum circa. 1960.

so you cant test the theory or anything.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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one more thing i am unclear on what bearing your mention of entropy. im not sure how you understand entropy but it does not "start", are you referring to the start of a change in entropy?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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When Cup starts agreeing with you Greatkraw you should re-think your position...lol.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
When Cup starts agreeing with you Greatkraw you should re-think your position...lol.
'Greatkraw' is a good little student when he is concentrating, but your just disruptive and a bad influence.
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
one more thing i am unclear on what bearing your mention of entropy. im not sure how you understand entropy but it does not "start", are you referring to the start of a change in entropy?
and the fact that orbital time does not agree with atomic time?
 
Nov 11, 2009
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are you referring to the theory setterfield put forward after he decided it was a little ridiculous to say the speed of light had stopped declining. And so he decided that the frequency of atomic vibrations must have been slowing all this time behind our backs? that theory?

i apologize for sounding like that theory is ridiculous and a desperate measure to force fit his observations into theory.

please explain the mechanism of this vibrational slowing, and please explain why the several part per billion decrease in frequency has not been noted in the atomic clocks with a precision of over 1 part per trillion.

ESPECIALLY as

"The clocks maintain a continuous and stable time scale, International Atomic Time (TAI). For civil time, another time scale is disseminated, Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). UTC is derived from TAI, but synchronized, by using leap seconds, to UT1, which is based on actual rotations of the earth with respect to the solar time."

wikipedia


again you are advocating a theory that proposes the actually vibrations undergone at the atomic level is decreasing proportional to setterfields magical speed of light decay. which if you have read through all the references in some of the above responses you can respect has been discredited.

so in response i have no idea what you mean by the statement "orbital time does not agree with atomic time."
 
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Demeter

Guest
I apologize to keep this thread from dragging on and on, however now that "thelevite" has done research in regards to your claims and has disproven the many theories and flaws that you have stated in the big bang theory i would like to learn why the earth is as young as you say it is.

The worst part is disproving the big bang theory does not prove your belief that the earth is only 6000 years old, would you please enlighten me what you mean when you say "but remember there is clear evidence that the planet's age is only in the thousands of years."

p.s. i actually do want to know what evidence there is for a young earth, im just curious.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
The Levite hasn't disproven anything.

Proof of a young earth? Someone provided a whole list in this thread or another.

I will give you just one.

PolyStrate Fossils

The ungodly know all these arguements and do their best to discredit them. The more they attack someone's character the more you know that someone are onto something.

Insofar as RAdiometric dating works(and it has its issues) a decaying speed of light would predict the results we get.
 
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Cako53

Guest
The Levite hasn't disproven anything.

Proof of a young earth? Someone provided a whole list in this thread or another.

I will give you just one.

PolyStrate Fossils

The ungodly know all these arguements and do their best to discredit them. The more they attack someone's character the more you know that someone are onto something.

Insofar as RAdiometric dating works(and it has its issues) a decaying speed of light would predict the results we get.
would you care to explain these?
 
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greatkraw

Guest
go google polystrat(e) fossils