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A post as this, which is solely based upon your opinion that you are right and I am wrong, proves nothing from the bible.
Eph 2:5----------grace>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21--------baptism>>>>>>>>saves
Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then God's grace requires/includes water baptism. Rejecting water baptism (obedience to God) is rejecting grace.
Eph 2:8 shows it takes BOTH God's grace and man's faith to be saved. So salvation is not possible by 'grace alone' or "faith alone".
Eph 2:8------faith>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21----baptism>>>>>>saves
Since there is just one way to be saved, no alternatives, then faith MUST include baptism.
1 Thess 1:3 speaks about their "work of faith"
Faith itself is a work, it's a work that is required to access God's grace, Rom 5:2.
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forsha
Guest
It never ceases to amaze me how you people who believe the necessity of man's works to "GET" eternal salvation will always start off by saying that eternal salvation is by God's grace, and by God's grace alone, then you throw in all of these works of man to get eternal salvation, such as, faith, repentance, baptism, confession, etc. Then you say forgiveness, when God has already done that on the cross, What did Jesus die for, if not for the remission of sins, Does he have to die again to give you remission again when he said "it is finished"?
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forsha
Guest
QUOTE=michael56;1895631]No truly born again Christian can view it that they can live however they want. They have been changed, born again by the Holy Spirit who has entered their life at the point of conversion. If this did not happen such beliefs could exist, but they cannot for a person born again:
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
Ezekiel 36:26&27
A mirror of the following:
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
Heb 10:16&17
You only get the grace because you have been changed by the spirit who enters your life when you accept Christ as your Saviour.[/QUOTE]
You are saying That God will not save you eternally until you accept Christ as your savior. That is not eternal salvation by the grace of God, but by the obedience (work) of man.
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
Ezekiel 36:26&27
A mirror of the following:
This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
Heb 10:16&17
You only get the grace because you have been changed by the spirit who enters your life when you accept Christ as your Saviour.[/QUOTE]
You are saying That God will not save you eternally until you accept Christ as your savior. That is not eternal salvation by the grace of God, but by the obedience (work) of man.
Yes, God's plan for men to be saved through Christ existed before the world began. You say yourself that "God purposes things and he purposed that Christ would die on the cross for the eternal salvation of all of those that God gave him."
God purposed Christ to die on the cross, it was "planned" and did not happen by accident.
"It is finished"
What was finished? The law of Moses (Colossians 2:14-16), the sabbath institution (Amos 8:5-9), the works of his personal ministry, the power of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), the atonement for the sins of the whole world (Hebrews 9:26), the purchase price for the church (Acts 20:28), and the remission of sins prior to Calvary, as well as the remission of whatever sins will be remitted for all eternity - these are among the things finished that day on the cross of Christ.
Coffman Commentary.
The ones given to Christ and Christ keeps are the ones that obey Him, Heb 5:9. No one is given randomly or for no particular reason to Christ.
You are saying That God will not save you eternally until you accept Christ as your savior. That is not eternal salvation by the grace of God, but by the obedience (work) of man.[/QUOTE]
You are splitting hairs me thinks.
No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them.
We are saved by faith, faith given us as a free gift so that no one can boast.
Does this mean if I ask Christ into my life as lord and saviourand believe the transaction is done, I have committed a work un to salvation?
hmmmmmm. Me thinks this is a silly discussion, bye
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forsha
Guest
So if a man does not believe then he is lost and it would the the fault, culpability of God for him being lost. Yet God has no culpability for those that are lost.
Jn 6:28,29 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that wemight work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
Believing is the work Jesus gave these people to do, God does not believe for them. Jesus told them YOU do the work of believing. No sense in the jailer in Acts 16:31 and other to be commanded to believe (MK 1:15) if God does the work of believing.
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forsha
Guest
Sorry, but you are doing the same thing that the Galatians were doing, depending on the works of the old law to save you eternally, confession, repentance, baptism., etc.
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BradC
Guest
You have a history here on CC with your 5,000+ posts, just like the rest of us. It is well known what you believe and it is diametrically opposed to much of the doctrine of Christ and what many believe on this site as born again, blood bought redeemed sinners. You add to the word and interpret many things with the wrong premise. You have proven to many of us as to the nature of your understanding and the tremendous lack of edification you exhibit to the members of Christ's body. It is your understanding that testifies against you and the words that you espouse on this site. You have given no proof in these words of yours that you are even a brother in Christ because of the conditions that you put on the brethren. You can take that any way you want until you prove otherwise.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
No I am not because confession, repentance, and baptism is not the works of the law.
The works of the law is trying to keep and following, and be justified by the 613 Mosaic laws in the OT. What the Lord taught in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is not works of the law. They are standards of a true faith in a believer, for a true faith will lead you to obey all of His commands from love to baptism. The epistles all upheld all the Lord taught, they did not do away with any of it. Even Paul upheld baptism even though some will tell you he didn't because they misuse one scripture of his where he says he was not sent to baptize.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
That is because we do not toss all of the Lords teachings out the window.
He is the one who said repent or perish.
He is the one who said be baptized to be saved.
He is the one who said you have to believe in Him to be saved.
He is the one who said you have to forgive others to be forgiven and be saved.
He is the one who said keep your confession in Him, and if not you will be denied and not saved.
He is the one who said if you deny others help, you have denied Him and will go to eternal punishment.
The list can go on, but the point is that our Lord Jesus said these things not us, and no bible scripture says remission was given immediately at the cross for all. Else wise all people would be saved and nobody would go to the lake of fire.
When He said it is finished He was speaking of the payment for our sins, and no more sacrifices is needed.
He still gave us conditions to receive that remission by His blood, and it is repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) for present sins and then confession (1 John 1:9) for future sins. It amazes me that people still want to teach His word in the bible does not need to be followed and obeyed.
Amen! SeaBass' idea of grace is salvation received based on works. Notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. SeaBass is trying to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith. He doesn't seem to make a distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of faith and the result is salvation by works. Faith + conditions - grace = works salvation.
From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith"--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.
I agree. Works do not save a person. I don't have to go out tomorrow and do something to be saved. I am saved by God's grace right here and right now. This is because I repented of my sins and accepted Jesus as my Savior. This is because I trust in Jesus as my Savior. I believe He died on the cross for my sins, was buried, and risen to life three days later. This is because when I do on occasion commiit a sin, I confess that sin, and then he is faithful and just to forgive me of that sin and to cleanse me of it's unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For we are saved by God's grace (Which is a free gift) and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved by His mercy and by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5).
However, true repentance and an acceptance of Jesus Christ will lead a person to live righteously and fruitful for their God, though. If they are not living righteously and or doing no works for God, then they are proving God is not living within them. They are showing their faith is a dead faith (James 2:17-19). For those believers who live unrighteously and or do no works need to repent and get their heart right with the Lord. For the Lord is their salvation.
They get their heart right with God and not by doing a bunch of any works. Jesus saves. It's not us. Works are just the result of salvation.
However, true repentance and an acceptance of Jesus Christ will lead a person to live righteously and fruitful for their God, though. If they are not living righteously and or doing no works for God, then they are proving God is not living within them. They are showing their faith is a dead faith (James 2:17-19). For those believers who live unrighteously and or do no works need to repent and get their heart right with the Lord. For the Lord is their salvation.
They get their heart right with God and not by doing a bunch of any works. Jesus saves. It's not us. Works are just the result of salvation.
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Confessing and forsaking sin (or evil) is not a work. Forgiving others is not a work. Denying Christ before men is not a work.
As for baptism: It does not save the soul. While it is spiritual, it is only a symbolic act, though.
As for helping the poor, etc.: This happens as a result of having been saved (or born again).
In other words, works do not save you. Only Jesus saves.
Granted, this does not give the believer a license to sin, though.
As for baptism: It does not save the soul. While it is spiritual, it is only a symbolic act, though.
As for helping the poor, etc.: This happens as a result of having been saved (or born again).
In other words, works do not save you. Only Jesus saves.
Granted, this does not give the believer a license to sin, though.
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Most people understand the cross as it pertains to salvation, but have no idea of how it pertains to sanctification. They think that their works is what sanctifies them. Works are a result and not the cause.
Again, this is based on nothing more than your opinion, just a another personal attack that has nothing to do with any bible discussion.
Those that are denying obedient works are a necessary part of salvation are the ones opposed to plain bible teachings.
I asked many times and will again
Rom 6:16 Paul says you serve either;
1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness
I serve #2, which do you serve?