DeMystifying the Trinity

[Bowman]

.
"The Lord" (kurios) in 2Co 3:17,18 is the Lord Jesus Christ (3:15, 16) of whom kurios
is used hundreds of times in the NT.

"The Lord is the Spirit" (2Co 3:18), like

". . .having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word. . .the Spirit of Jesus would
not allow them to" (Ac 16:6-7), where in both they appear to be the same,

What a stretch...adding in words which simply do not appear...


While you are at it, bring forth some of these hundreds, upon hundreds, upon hundreds of times for review...

 

[Bowman]

And I'm still waiting for you to give the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father,

Who, but you, ever mentioned this....?

 

[MyLighthouse]

I'm not Trinitarian or Oneness, they are very much a like. No debate needed. This topic should be treaded on very lightly if you chose to discuss it.

 

[Bowman]

I'm not Trinitarian or Oneness, they are very much a like. No debate needed. This topic should be treaded on very lightly if you chose to discuss it.

They are as different as night is from day.

Only Trinitarians are saved.

 

[MyLighthouse]

They are as different as night is from day.

Only Trinitarians are saved.

The Bible says that if you confess, believe, are baptized, and received the Spirit you are saved. It does not say if you believe in Trinity you are saved.

Oneness and Trinitarians say that about each other because they don't have an outside view or been exposed fully to both doctrines. Therefore the knowledge is lacking greatly. Can't tell you how many times I've heard a Oneness explain Trinitarian doctrine wrong and vice versa. The same vocabulary and expression are use just different terms for the same words in order to sound opposing to the other. Really if you guys would work together you'd find the argument of One God expressed or reflected as 3 stronger. Because each fill in a gap of the others doctrine. If I was to write a simple list of the doctrine of either, neither Oneness or Trinitarian would found grounds to disagree.

 

[Elin]

2Co 3;17, 18 shows that
1) the veil which kept the Jews from seeing the fading glory on Moses' face is still with them, keeping them from seeing the fading glory (inadequacy) of the old covenant,

2) which veil is removed only in Christ--only those in the new covenant in Christ have the power to see how the greater glory of the new covenant has surpassed and replaced the old covenant.

"But whenever anyone turns to the Lord (Jesus Christ), the veil is taken away." (3:16)
"because only in Christ is it (the veil) taken away (3:15).

2Co 3:17, 18 is saying that it is only by turning to the Lord (Jesus Christ) that the condemnation
and the sentence of death pronounced by the law of the old covenant are annulled and replaced
by the free life-giving grace of the new covenant in the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 3:18 - "The Lord is the Spirit" refers back to 3:6, "the Spirit gives life."

While the Lord and the Spirit appear to be the same, they are not the same in

2Co 3:18 - "The Lord is the Spirit" and in

Ac 16:6-7 - ". . .having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word. . .the Spirit of Jesus would
not allow them to."

They simply state the co-equal relationship of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

So in the context of what 2Co 3:15-18 is presenting, "the Lord" (kurios) is the Lord Jesus Christ (3:17, 18) of whom kurios is used hundreds of times in the NT.
Kurios is never God the Father in the NT.

Keeping in mind that the Holy Spirit proceeds from (ek-poreuetai , "to go forth,
to go from or out of") both the Father (Jn 15:26) and the Son (Gal 4:6), and
is the one Spirit of both.

2 Cor 3.16 - 18

Moreover, whenever it turns to (the) Lord, the veil is taken away. Moreover, The Spirit is (the) Lord; moreover, where The Spirit Lord (is), there (is) liberty. Moreover, we all(with our) facehaving been unveiled, having beheld The Gloryof (the) Lord, beholding as in a mirror;
are being transformed (into)the same imagefrom glory to glory, as from(the) Lord Spirit.

What we are told in this scripture:
·The Spirit is God
·The Glory of God was beheld with our faces (i.e The Son)
·The Spirit is NOT The Son

Compare to its Hebrew source…

In Exo 33, Yahweh The Father states that He will send His faces (i.e. Yahweh The Son and Yahweh The Spirit)…

And He said, My faces (plural noun) will go (plural verb) with you, and I will give you rest. And they said to Him, If Your faces (plural noun) does not go (plural verb), do not cause us to go up from here.(Exo 33.14 – 15)

This sets the stage for the end of Exo 33, where Moses is allowed to see the Glory of Yahweh (i.e. The Son & The Spirit).The face of Yahweh The Father cannot be seen.

In Exo 34, Yahweh the Father comes down to Moses, cloaked in a cloud, and proclaims Yahweh The Son and Yahweh The Spirit, in the declaration ‘Yahweh, Yahweh’…

Yahweh The Son then spends the next forty days & forty nights, in a face to face discussion with Moses (Exo 34.28).

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and not the same as God the Father.

And the meaning of Lord used five times in 2Co 3:17, 18 above has been previously addressed in the record.
You can review it there.

There is no Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Mt Sinai or
in the Holy of Holies.

​

 

[Elin]

And I'm still waiting for you to give the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father,

Who, but you, ever mentioned this....?

Addressed in the record.

You can review it there.

 

[Bowman]

The Bible says that if you confess, believe, are baptized, and received the Spirit you are saved. It does not say if you believe in Trinity you are saved.

Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.(Romans 10.9)

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

· God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10

· God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18; Romans 6.4

· God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18

· The Trinity…Romans 10.9; Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37


Thus…you will be saved if you believe in The Triune God, as revealed in scripture.

Simple, Biblical truth.

Oneness and Trinitarians say that about each other because they don't have an outside view or been exposed fully to both doctrines. Therefore the knowledge is lacking greatly. Can't tell you how many times I've heard a Oneness explain Trinitarian doctrine wrong and vice versa. The same vocabulary and expression are use just different terms for the same words in order to sound opposing to the other. Really if you guys would work together you'd find the argument of One God expressed or reflected as 3 stronger. Because each fill in a gap of the others doctrine. If I was to write a simple list of the doctrine of either, neither Oneness or Trinitarian would found grounds to disagree.

Disagreed...

 

[Bowman]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and not the same as God the Father.

Nor the same as The Son.

And the meaning of

Lord used five times in 2Co 3:17, 18 above has been previously addressed in the record.
You can review it there.

You said hundreds upon hundreds.

Show us 20.

There is no Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Mt Sinai or
in the Holy of Holies.

You don't know your scriptures very well...

Here we have scriptural confirmation that the One God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush is actually The Messenger of The Lord, The Second Person of The Trinity, The Son…


Mark 12.26

But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?

Mark 12 informs the reader that that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush.




Acts 7.30 - 39

And forty years being fulfilled to him, The Messenger of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. And seeing, Moses marveled at the sight. And he coming up to look, a voice of the Lord came to him: "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Ex. 3:6, 15 But becoming trembly, Moses did not dare to look. And the Lord said to him, "Loosen the sandal from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. I surely saw the affliction of My people in Egypt, and I have heard their groan, and I came down to pluck them out. And now, come, I will send you to" Egypt. Ex. 3:5, 7, 8a, 10a This Moses, whom they denied, saying, Who appointed you a ruler and a judge, this one God has sent as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger who appeared to him in the Bush. This one led them out, having worked wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and forty years in the wilderness. This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, " The Lord your God will raise up a Prophet to you" "from your brothers, One like me." You shall hear Him. Deut. 18:15 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us, to whom our fathers did not desire to be subject, but thrust him away, and turned their hearts back to Egypt,


Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.

Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.

Jesus Christ.

 

[Bowman]

Addressed in the record.

You can review it there.

Not hardly...rather your continued embellishment...

 

[Elin]

Addressed in the record.

You can review it there.

Not hardly...rather your continued embellishment...

Demonstrate such.

 

[MyLighthouse]

Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.(Romans 10.9)

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

· God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10

· God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18; Romans 6.4

· God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18

· The Trinity…Romans 10.9; Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37


Thus…you will be saved if you believe in The Triune God, as revealed in scripture.

Simple, Biblical truth.






Disagreed...

A Oneness would agree that God raised Jesus from the dead. In Oneness Jesus is the expressed image of God(Trinitarian say reflection), the Son of God (Oneness interpret as Flesh of God ). God was in heaven when Jesus was expressed on earth. So they do believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. I'm not a Trinitarian, I do not believe in that doctrine anymore than you or I believe in Oneness, that doesn't make me unsaved. And I do not think either Trinitarian or Oneness aren't saved because they believe in those doctrines. Jesus is who saves us, not man made doctrine.

 

[Bowman]

A Oneness would agree that God raised Jesus from the dead. In Oneness Jesus is the expressed image of God(Trinitarian say reflection), the Son of God (Oneness interpret as Flesh of God ). God was in heaven when Jesus was expressed on earth. So they do believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. I'm not a Trinitarian, I do not believe in that doctrine anymore than you or I believe in Oneness, that doesn't make me unsaved. And I do not think either Trinitarian or Oneness aren't saved because they believe in those doctrines. Jesus is who saves us, not man made doctrine.

If you fail to worship Yahweh, as He has revealed Himself, Triune, then you are not saved.

Simple scriptural truth.


And it shall be that everyone who shall worship the name Lord will be saved." (Acts 2.21)


For everyone, "whoever may worship the name Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)


And we are told that the ‘name’ is one and the same for Father, Son & Spirit...

Then having gone, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Mat 28.19)





Thus...Elin needs to take a long hard look these two scriptures as they use the term 'Kurios' to represent The Trinity and NOT just Jesus.

Wake up...

 

[Elin]

And the meaning of Lord used five times in 2Co 3:17, 18 has been previously addressed in the record.
You can review it there.

You said hundreds upon hundreds.
Show us 20.

Addressed in the record.

You can review it there.

There is no Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Mt Sinai or in the Holy of Holies.

You don't know your scriptures very well. . .

Here we have scriptural confirmation that the One God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush is actually The Messenger of The Lord, The Second Person of The Trinity, The Son…

Mark 12.26 But concerning the dead, that they are raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, as God spoke to him at the Bush, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"?

Mark 12 informs the reader that that God spoke to Moses from the burning bush.

Acts 7.30 - 39 And forty years being fulfilled to him, The Messenger of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. And seeing, Moses marveled at the sight. And he coming up to look, a voice of the Lord came to him: "I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Ex. 3:6, 15 But becoming trembly, Moses did not dare to look. And the Lord said to him, "Loosen the sandal from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. I surely saw the affliction of My people in Egypt, and I have heard their groan, and I came down to pluck them out. And now, come, I will send you to" Egypt. Ex. 3:5, 7, 8a, 10a This Moses, whom they denied, saying, Who appointed you a ruler and a judge, this one God has sent as ruler and redeemer by the hand of the Messenger who appeared to him in the Bush. This one led them out, having worked wonders and miraculous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea, and forty years in the wilderness. This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, " The Lord your God will raise up a Prophet to you" "from your brothers, One like me." You shall hear Him. Deut. 18:15 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received living Words to give to us, to whom our fathers did not desire to be subject, but thrust him away, and turned their hearts back to Egypt,

Acts 7 informs the reader that The Messenger of The Lord appeared and spoke to Moses from the burning bush.

Thus…The Messenger of The Lord is God.

Jesus Christ.

I'm thinkin' you're confused about who doesn't know their Scriptures very well.

The word used in Ac 7:30-39 is "angel" (Gr: anggelos).

Neither God nor the Lord Jesus Christ are angels (Heb 1:4-14).

There is no Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Sinai or in the Holy of Holies.

You have not shown that Ex 34 is a counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18,

and, therefore, that kurios means God the Father in 2Co 3:17, 18.

The word kurios never means God the Father in the NT.

 

[Bowman]

Deal with it...

Addressed in the record.

You can review it there.

Its not in any record - thus, it cannot be reviewed.

I'm thinkin' you're confused about who doesn't know their Scriptures very well.

The word used in Ac 7:30-39 is "angel" (Gr: anggelos).

It means 'Messenger'....'Malek' in the OT.

Neither God nor the Lord Jesus Christ are angels (Heb 1:4-14).

Jesus is God in the first place....and yes, He was known as The Malek Yahweh in the OT, among other titles...

There is no Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Sinai or in the Holy of Holies.

I have shown you otherwise.

Directly rebut it, or be silent.

You have not shown that Ex 34 is a counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18,

Yes, I have.

Directly rebut it, or be silent.

 

[secularhermit]

They are as different as night is from day.

Only Trinitarians are saved.

Oh, my... That´s funny.

Trinitarians from Trinidad, you meant?

 

[Elin]

Re: Deal with it...

I'm thinkin' you're confused about who doesn't know their Scriptures very well.

The word used in Ac 7:30-39 is "angel" (Gr: anggelos).

It means 'Messenger'....'Malek' in the OT.

Ac 7:30-39 is in the NT, where we learn that "angels" are
created spirits (Heb 1:14),
beings superior to man (Heb 2:7),
belonging to heaven (Mt 24:36; Mk 12:25) and to God (Lk 12:8),
holy (Mk 8:38),
elect (1Tim 5:21),
engaged in God's service as ministering spirits
(Mt 1:20, 2;13, 19, 28:2; Lk 1:11, 2:9; Jn 20:12; Ac 5:19, 8:26, 10:3, 12:7, 23, 27:23; Heb 1:14),
or sinful (2Pe 2:4).

1) Neither God the Father nor the Lord Jesus Christ are angels (Heb 1:4-14).

2) There is no Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Sinai
or in the Holy of Holies.

3) You have not shown that Ex 34 is a counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18
and, therefore, that kurios means God the Father in 2Co 3:17, 18.

4) The word kurios never means God the Father in the NT.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Deal with it...

Ac 7:30-39 is in the NT, where we learn that "angels" are
created spirits (Heb 1:14),
beings superior to man (Heb 2:7),
belonging to heaven (Mt 24:36; Mk 12:25) and to God (Lk 12:8),
holy (Mk 8:38),
elect (1Tim 5:21),
engaged in God's service as ministering spirits
(Mt 1:20, 2;13, 19, 28:2; Lk 1:11, 2:9; Jn 20:12; Ac 5:19, 8:26, 10:3, 12:7, 23, 27:23; Heb 1:14),
or sinful (2Pe 2:4).

1) Neither God the Father nor the Lord Jesus Christ are angels (Heb 1:4-14).

'Messenger'...NOT 'angel'.

2) There is no Biblical basis for the Lord Jesus Christ speaking at Sinai
or in the Holy of Holies.

I have shown you otherwise.

Keep denying.

 

[Elin]

The word used in Ac 7:30-39 is "angel" (Gr: anggelos).

It means 'Messenger'....'Malek' in the OT.

Ac 7:30-39 is in the NT, where we learn that
"angels" (messengers) are
created spirits (Heb 1:14),
beings superior to man (Heb 2:7),
belonging to heaven (Mt 24:36; Mk 12:25) and to God (Lk 12:8),
holy (Mk 8:38),
elect (1Tim 5:21),
engaged in God's service as ministering spirits
(Heb 1:14; Mt 1:20, 2;13, 19, 28:2; Lk 1:11, 2:9; Jn 20:12;
Ac 5:19, 8:26, 10:3, 12:7, 23, 27:23),
or evil (2Pe 2:4).

'Messenger'...NOT 'angel'.

Yes, all those in the above Scriptures are "messengers" (angellos).

 

[Bowman]

Yes, all those in the above Scriptures are "messengers" (angellos).

Then so is Jesus...


Gal 4.13 -14


But you know that because of weakness of the flesh, I announced the gospel to you before; and you did not despise my trial in my flesh nor disdained it, but you received me as a Messenger (angelon) of God, as Christ Jesus.