-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Let's start with these from the record before we address the above:
Post #276, here:
"See how silly this makes your position look...?"
Post #280, here:
"Thus, to keep you from committing hypocrisy, yet again, we would have to toss your example out from discussion.
You really haven't given a lot of thought to all the dead-ends in your logic..."
Post #296, here:
"What would be 'helpful' is if you were to actually back-up your own assertions instead of having me prove you wrong....over.....and over....and over again for you."
(Claim refuted in post #278, here)
Post #311, here:
"Your repeated assertions just make you look more obtuse each time that you repeat them...lol..."
Post #324, here:
"Now put forth some effort...instead of replying on your lunch break..."
Post #335, here:
"This is what happens when someone calls you out on your meritless assertions - which you probably have been falsely propagating for years."
Post #339, here:
"Your assertion is simply broken on so many levels, its hard to know where to even begin correctly you....and emanates from pure, unadulterated scriptural ignorance on your part.
Study up..."
Now to respond to your post.
You're confused about the record...yet again.
I've agreed with that since post #240
(and it's restated in posts #244, 248, 260, 268, 271, 275, 288, 311).
You did.
The context of the discussion is that the NT usage of kurios always means the word "lord,"
and never means the word "god."
You stated:
So please provide those seven verses where the NT usage of kurios is "god," rather than "lord,"
unless you were gaming the context (again).
And finally, regarding your comments above (not to mention all the gaming):
made by an accountable Christian, an apology would be in order.
Post #276, here:
"See how silly this makes your position look...?"
Post #280, here:
"Thus, to keep you from committing hypocrisy, yet again, we would have to toss your example out from discussion.
You really haven't given a lot of thought to all the dead-ends in your logic..."
Post #296, here:
"What would be 'helpful' is if you were to actually back-up your own assertions instead of having me prove you wrong....over.....and over....and over again for you."
(Claim refuted in post #278, here)
Post #311, here:
"Your repeated assertions just make you look more obtuse each time that you repeat them...lol..."
Post #324, here:
"Now put forth some effort...instead of replying on your lunch break..."
Post #335, here:
"This is what happens when someone calls you out on your meritless assertions - which you probably have been falsely propagating for years."
Post #339, here:
"Your assertion is simply broken on so many levels, its hard to know where to even begin correctly you....and emanates from pure, unadulterated scriptural ignorance on your part.
Study up..."
Now to respond to your post.
You're confused about the record...yet again.
I've agreed with that since post #240
(and it's restated in posts #244, 248, 260, 268, 271, 275, 288, 311).
You did.
The context of the discussion is that the NT usage of kurios always means the word "lord,"
and never means the word "god."
You stated:
So please provide those seven verses where the NT usage of kurios is "god," rather than "lord,"
unless you were gaming the context (again).
And finally, regarding your comments above (not to mention all the gaming):
made by an accountable Christian, an apology would be in order.
Last edited:
The basis for your assertion that The Son is The Spirit rests upon your mis-interpretation of ONE verse.
One verse.
That’s it.
This is simply poor theology, and reminds me of followers of islam in their quest to deny Jesus’ Crucifixion until death upon the Cross, and the subsequent consequences…they likewise base their entire theology upon ONE mis-interpreted verse in their Koran.
Similar to them…this one verse is ALL that you have….you would think that you could defend this one verse exegetically….but you can’t.
The most amazing thing is that your stance on your ‘one-hit-wonder-verse’ forces other verses into contradiction…just as it does with Muslims, and their unsupportable interpretation…
Irrelevant. . .since that assertion was changed in post #240 and the change repeated
eight different times.
This is just more gaming. . .as you gamed the context of kurios and theos, and
gamed the use of the lexicon, where:
the context of kurios and theos is stated in posts #225, 228, 232, 236, 240, 263, 288,
the context is gamed by you in posts #243, 249, 260, 268,
your gaming is exposed in posts #271, 275, 282, and
your gaming of the lexicon is addressed in posts #308, 323.
I'm thinking that is no where near what is truly amazing on this thread.
Brings to mind: "they not only continue to do these things but also approve of them."
And I'm still waiting for you to explain the OT counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18 "involving Yahweh,"
. . .and to give the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father,
unless you are gaming the context (again).
Do we have our evidence regarding an accountable Christian?
eight different times.
This is just more gaming. . .as you gamed the context of kurios and theos, and
gamed the use of the lexicon, where:
the context of kurios and theos is stated in posts #225, 228, 232, 236, 240, 263, 288,
the context is gamed by you in posts #243, 249, 260, 268,
your gaming is exposed in posts #271, 275, 282, and
your gaming of the lexicon is addressed in posts #308, 323.
I'm thinking that is no where near what is truly amazing on this thread.
Brings to mind: "they not only continue to do these things but also approve of them."
And I'm still waiting for you to explain the OT counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18 "involving Yahweh,"
. . .and to give the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father,
unless you are gaming the context (again).
Do we have our evidence regarding an accountable Christian?
Last edited:
"they not only continue to do these things but also to approve of them."
The record's summary in posts #343 (here) and #346 (here) speak for themselves.
And I'm still waiting for you to explain the OT counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18 "involving Yahweh,"
. . .and to give the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father,
unless you are gaming the context (again).
Do we have our evidence regarding an accountable Christian?
The record's summary in posts #343 (here) and #346 (here) speak for themselves.
And I'm still waiting for you to explain the OT counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18 "involving Yahweh,"
. . .and to give the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father,
unless you are gaming the context (again).
Do we have our evidence regarding an accountable Christian?
Last edited:
There is no other like Jesus ...non is equal to him...he is the only begotten of the Father....you started out with The Lord is that Spirit.....when you realised they are one and the same .you start to change your tune...because that means there is no trinity...so you have to wiggle your way back into trinity mode by agreeing that they are not one and the same....but they are one but co equal...pure rubbish... how can they be one and co-equal???....nothing can be one and two at the same time...or one and three at the same time...there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ....ask Paul ...ask Peter...ask John...
Romans 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP](Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Romans 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP](Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
2 Cor 3.16 - 18
Moreover, whenever it turns to (the) Lord, the veil is taken away. Moreover, The Spirit is (the) Lord; moreover, where The SpiritLord (is), there (is) liberty. Moreover, we all(with our) facehaving been unveiled, having beheld The Gloryof (the) Lord,beholding as in a mirror;are being transformed (into)the same imagefrom glory to glory, as from(the) Lord Spirit.
What we are told in this scripture:
·The Spirit is God
·The Glory of God was beheld with our faces (i.e The Son)
·The Spirit is NOT The Son
Compare to its Hebrew source…
In Exo 33, Yahweh The Father states that He will send His faces (i.e. Yahweh The Son and Yahweh The Spirit)…
And He said, My faces (plural noun) will go (plural verb) with you, and I will give you rest. And they said to Him, If Your faces (plural noun) does not go (plural verb), do not cause us to go up from here.(Exo 33.14 – 15)
This sets the stage for the end of Exo 33, where Moses is allowed to see the Glory of Yahweh (i.e. The Son & The Spirit).The face of Yahweh The Father cannot be seen.
In Exo 34, Yahweh the Father comes down to Moses, cloaked in a cloud, and proclaims Yahweh The Son and Yahweh The Spirit, in the declaration ‘Yahweh, Yahweh’…
Yahweh The Son then spends the next forty days & forty nights, in a face to face discussion with Moses (Exo 34.28).
Learn this:
No where in either the OT or the NT does it ever state that Yahweh The Son is Yahweh The Spirit.
Each is NOT the other.
NASB Lexicon
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]NASB ©[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Hebrew[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 10%"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Definition[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]Then he said[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]וַיֹּ֖אמֶר[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]vai·yo·mer[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]559[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to utter, say[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. root[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]to Him, "If[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]אִם־[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]im-[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]518[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]if[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. conjunction[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]Your presence[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]פָּנֶ֙יךָ֙[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]pa·nei·cha[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]6440[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]face, faces[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]from panah[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]does not go[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]הֹלְכִ֔ים[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ho·le·chim,[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1980[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to go, come, walk[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. root[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"][with us], do not lead[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]תַּעֲלֵ֖נוּ[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ta·'a·le·nu[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5927[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to go up, ascend, climb[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. root[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]us up from here.[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]מִזֶּֽה׃[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]miz·zeh.[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2088[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]this, here[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. pronoun[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
it say face /faces you choose faces I choose face...God is one....
God gave Jesus all power until the restitution of all things.....and all things are subject yo him except God...is the Spirit subject to Jesus???? Scripture does not say he gave all power to Son and Spirit...
[h=1]1 Corinthians 15:24-28King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]NASB ©[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Hebrew[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 10%"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Definition[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 18%"]Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]Then he said[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]וַיֹּ֖אמֶר[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]vai·yo·mer[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]559[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to utter, say[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. root[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]to Him, "If[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]אִם־[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]im-[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]518[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]if[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. conjunction[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]Your presence[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]פָּנֶ֙יךָ֙[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]pa·nei·cha[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]6440[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]face, faces[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]from panah[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]does not go[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]הֹלְכִ֔ים[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ho·le·chim,[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1980[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to go, come, walk[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. root[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"][with us], do not lead[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]תַּעֲלֵ֖נוּ[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ta·'a·le·nu[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5927[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]to go up, ascend, climb[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. root[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: eng"]us up from here.[/TD]
[TD="class: hebrew2"]מִזֶּֽה׃[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]miz·zeh.[/TD]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2088[/TD]
[TD="class: eng2"]this, here[/TD]
[TD="class: eng3"]a prim. pronoun[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
it say face /faces you choose faces I choose face...God is one....
God gave Jesus all power until the restitution of all things.....and all things are subject yo him except God...is the Spirit subject to Jesus???? Scripture does not say he gave all power to Son and Spirit...
[h=1]1 Corinthians 15:24-28King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Thanks.
But according to you in the following, kurios is the Lord Jesus Christ, not God the Father.
According to you there, we are told in this Scripture that the Spirit is the Holy Spirit,
not God the Father.
Agreed. . .
1) The Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are presented as one, co-equal,
but not the same (Ac 16:7; Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6 Php 1:19; 1Pe 1:11).
2) God the Father is not meant in 2Co 3:17, 18.
3) We are being transformed into the likeness of the Lord Jesus Christ
(Ro 8:29; Gal 4:19; 1Co 5:49).
In the NT, kurios does not mean God the Father.
Thanks for the explanation of Ex 34, but
you have not shown that it is a counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18,
as are Ac 16:7; Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6 Php 1:19; 1Pe 1:11.
Agreed. . .since post #240.
Gaming again, to distract from your inability to demonstrate that kurios is God the Father in 2Co 3:17, 18?
So in the absence of a demonstration that Ex 34 "involving Yahweh" is a counterpart of
2Co 3:17, 18, the record shows that Ex 34 is not a counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18.
That leaves the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father
(or are you, again, gaming the context there to distract from your inability to demonstrate that kurios is God the Father in 2Co 3:17,18?).
Brings to mind the cautionary tale where the quick, conceited, arrogant, contemptuous, mocking hare failed to accomplish the objective, while the simple tortoise succeeded marvelously in accomplishing it.
But according to you in the following, kurios is the Lord Jesus Christ, not God the Father.
According to you there, we are told in this Scripture that the Spirit is the Holy Spirit,
not God the Father.
Agreed. . .
1) The Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are presented as one, co-equal,
but not the same (Ac 16:7; Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6 Php 1:19; 1Pe 1:11).
2) God the Father is not meant in 2Co 3:17, 18.
3) We are being transformed into the likeness of the Lord Jesus Christ
(Ro 8:29; Gal 4:19; 1Co 5:49).
In the NT, kurios does not mean God the Father.
Thanks for the explanation of Ex 34, but
you have not shown that it is a counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18,
as are Ac 16:7; Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6 Php 1:19; 1Pe 1:11.
Agreed. . .since post #240.
Gaming again, to distract from your inability to demonstrate that kurios is God the Father in 2Co 3:17, 18?
So in the absence of a demonstration that Ex 34 "involving Yahweh" is a counterpart of
2Co 3:17, 18, the record shows that Ex 34 is not a counterpart of 2Co 3:17, 18.
That leaves the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father
(or are you, again, gaming the context there to distract from your inability to demonstrate that kurios is God the Father in 2Co 3:17,18?).
Brings to mind the cautionary tale where the quick, conceited, arrogant, contemptuous, mocking hare failed to accomplish the objective, while the simple tortoise succeeded marvelously in accomplishing it.
Last edited:
Yes, in the light of Ac 16:7; Ro 8:9; Gal 4:6 Php 1:19; 1Pe 1:11,
I realized I was mistaken about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit being the same,
that what is being said in these verses is that they are one, co-equal, but not the same.
Therefore, I must reckon with what the NT shows in the above counterpart verses and adjust my belief accordingly.
The NT presents three divine persons in the work of salvation, as shown in post #5, here.
I realized I was mistaken about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit being the same,
that what is being said in these verses is that they are one, co-equal, but not the same.
Therefore, I must reckon with what the NT shows in the above counterpart verses and adjust my belief accordingly.
The NT presents three divine persons in the work of salvation, as shown in post #5, here.
And...?
Exo 34 IS the OT counterpart to 2 Cor 3.
Its not as if you could muster any direct rebuttal to what I posited....just your typical meritless opinion.
Further, you keep slavishly reposting the same scripture numbers as if this had some sort of bearing upon the conversation.
It doesn't....and you refuse to demonstrate why they supposedly do.
Are you hoping that if you rub those numbers together hard enough that a genie will pop out...?
All addressed in the record's summary in posts #343 (here), #346 (here), and #352 here which speaks for itself.
And I'm still waiting for you to give the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father,
(or are you, again, gaming the context there to distract from your inability to demonstrate that kurios is God the Father in 2Co 3:17,18?).
Do we have our evidence regarding an accountable Christian?
And I'm still waiting for you to give the seven NT verses where kurios specifically means God the Father,
(or are you, again, gaming the context there to distract from your inability to demonstrate that kurios is God the Father in 2Co 3:17,18?).
Do we have our evidence regarding an accountable Christian?
Last edited:
.
P.S.: Forgot this:
That is not the meaning of 2Co 3;17, 18, which shows that
The veil which kept the Jews from seeing the fading glory on Moses' face is still with them, keeping them from seeing the inadequacy of the old covenant, and which veil is removed only in Christ, that only those in the new covenant in Christ have the power to see how the new covenant has surpassed and replaced the old covenant--because of its greater glory."
The Lord is the Spirit," (2Co 3:18) refers back to 3:6, "the Spirit gives life."
"But whenever anyone turns to the Lord (Jesus Christ), the veil is taken away." (3:16)
"because only in Christ is it (the veil) taken away (3:15).
It is only by turning to the Lord (Jesus Christ) that the condemnation and the sentence
of death pronounced by the law of the old covenant are annulled and replaced by the
free life-giving grace of the new covenant.
"The Lord" (kurios) in 2Co 3:17,18 is the Lord Jesus Christ (3:15, 16) of whom kurios
is used hundreds of times in the NT.
"The Lord is the Spirit" (2Co 3:18), like
". . .having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word. . .the Spirit of Jesus would
not allow them to" (Ac 16:6-7), where in both they appear to be the same,
states the co-equal relationship of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Keeping in mind that the Holy Spirit proceeds from (ek-poreuetai , "to go forth,
to go from or out of") both the Father (Jn 15:26) and the Son (Gal 4:6), and
is the one Spirit of both.
P.S.: Forgot this:
That is not the meaning of 2Co 3;17, 18, which shows that
The veil which kept the Jews from seeing the fading glory on Moses' face is still with them, keeping them from seeing the inadequacy of the old covenant, and which veil is removed only in Christ, that only those in the new covenant in Christ have the power to see how the new covenant has surpassed and replaced the old covenant--because of its greater glory."
The Lord is the Spirit," (2Co 3:18) refers back to 3:6, "the Spirit gives life."
"But whenever anyone turns to the Lord (Jesus Christ), the veil is taken away." (3:16)
"because only in Christ is it (the veil) taken away (3:15).
It is only by turning to the Lord (Jesus Christ) that the condemnation and the sentence
of death pronounced by the law of the old covenant are annulled and replaced by the
free life-giving grace of the new covenant.
"The Lord" (kurios) in 2Co 3:17,18 is the Lord Jesus Christ (3:15, 16) of whom kurios
is used hundreds of times in the NT.
"The Lord is the Spirit" (2Co 3:18), like
". . .having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word. . .the Spirit of Jesus would
not allow them to" (Ac 16:6-7), where in both they appear to be the same,
states the co-equal relationship of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Keeping in mind that the Holy Spirit proceeds from (ek-poreuetai , "to go forth,
to go from or out of") both the Father (Jn 15:26) and the Son (Gal 4:6), and
is the one Spirit of both.
Last edited:
but you have put yourself in a peculiar position....you say they are one...one cannot be co equal...and one has to be the same....you can call one by ten different names it is still one and can only be one...one cannot be two or three....so you are being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine..