A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

[MarcR]

So you are making the preaching an issue of outside the assembly?

Who would you usually preach to if not some sort of group gathered together?

In today's world, what with technology such as Skype, women preach, teach, and pastor to people sitting at home on their computers. Is this an assembly?

Confusing, very confusing.

God is not the author of confusion.

Those posting on this thread who would have us discriminate against women are the authors of confusion.

I will ask these questions again, but nobody is answering them:

Is a female pastor engaging in sinful behavior that must be repented and turned away from? What about preaching and teaching? Is that sinful behavior?

Are men who support that female pastor, belong to her church or whatever, engaging in sinful behavior that must be repented and turned away from?

I would ask that some of those who would have us discriminate against women attempt to answer these questions, rather than go off on long rambling posts that don't do anything but make me yawn.

Confusion often results from taking remarks out of context. I said that in sharing the news that Christ was risen she did nothing wrong. How was sharing that information anything like preaching.

When believers purposefully gather for the purpose of worship and mutual edification they are in the type of assembly spoken of in this post. When they gather for any other purpose it is quite proper for a woman to share her thoughts and make inquiries. Preaching results from being called by God and a church to act as God's spokesman.

 

[JackH]

When believers purposefully gather for the purpose of worship and mutual edification they are in the type of assembly spoken of in this post. When they gather for any other purpose it is quite proper for a woman to share her thoughts and make inquiries. Preaching results from being called by God and a church to act as God's spokesman.

So you are saying that women are not called by God to act as God's Spokeswomen?

Do you say that a female pastor is engaging in sinful behavior that must be repented and turned away from?

Do you say that a female who teaches/preaches from a church pulpit is engaging in sinful behavior that must be repented and turned away from?

 

[VioletReigns]

As it is written and spoken to those who are ignorant to CHRIST's words of 'spirit' and 'life' written in the New Covenant for authority called submission and obedience in practices, as an prophetical earlier reminder and stir up of memory, to 'turn back' now to their MASTER's every spiritual words that;

"On that day many will say to me, LORD, LORD did we not 'prophesy' in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I declare to them, I never knew you, depart from me, you workers of 'lawlessness'."

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgement with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up at the judgement with this generation and condemn it, for she came from ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here."

What is most interesting in this passage is that Jesus will NOT say, "Depart from Me, you never knew Me." On the contrary, He will say, "I never knew YOU."

Jesus will never say "Depart" to those He knows and He does know me. He knows my heart because I do not hide from Him. I run to Him with confidence in Him and bring everything to His throne of grace. I have no confidence in myself at all because He has taught me that I do not even know my own motives until He reveals them to me by His Holy Spirit within me. I could never boast of having great wisdom or the ability to do anything of myself. I know that anything that is accomplished through me for the cause of Christ is by the glory and grace of the Lord Himself. I am His, that is all I can boast about, and PRAISE YOU, GOD for that!! Hallelujah! \/

Anyhow, I won't continue this debate with those who obviously feel they are right in their own eyes and have built up a case for themselves. They are contentious and spiteful, mean-spirited and show no grace. The Lord's will be done concerning them. God can correct them because only He knows the motives of their heart.

But to those brothers and sisters who are as I am, seeking God on the matter in humility and readiness of heart, don't concern yourself with religious and angry men's opinions, seek the Holy Spirit and trust the Lord to show you the truth.

Timothy received his name, which means “one who honors God,” from his mother (Eunice) and grandmother (Lois), devout Jews who became believers in the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Tim. 1:5) and taught Timothy the Scriptures from his childhood (2 Tim. 3:15). His father was a Greek (Acts 16:1). So it was his mother & grandmother who taught Timothy the Word of God, not his father.

 

[phil112]

................................
Timothy received his name, which means “one who honors God,” from his mother (Eunice) and grandmother (Lois), devout Jews who became believers in the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Tim. 1:5) and taught Timothy the Scriptures from his childhood (2 Tim. 3:15). His father was a Greek (Acts 16:1). So it was his mother & grandmother who taught Timothy the Word of God, not his father.

Huh! How about that! And all this time I was thinking that Paul, who looked upon Timothy as a son, taught him the gospel. Hey, thanks for straightening me out on that.

2 Timothy 1:5 "When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.'

Y'know, that's what my bible says in the passage you mentioned, doesn't say anything about Timothy being taught by either of them. Would you mind posting your bible's version? Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[phil112]

Then isn't the woman teaching the man?

When the dean sits in on one of his professors classes, he is merely observing. But then, you're senile at your advanced age and must have forgotten how to rationalize. My bad.

 

[tribesman]

...I wanted to see if you (or anyone) thought that the scriptures that talk about slavery should be followed today, in the same way that most Christians (I think) followed them in Paul's day... and if we don't then that implies a change in how the bible is read...

You are shooting at something that you are not yet clear or open about with your stressing that we need to implement a change in Bible reading, understanding the Bible with the situation of our present timeline as the rule. Anyway, in the sense that these scriptures apply to a situation today equivalent of that of Paul's day, then basically the answer to your question is yes. Slavery is not a homogenous phenomena. One can argue (and some do) that slavery still exists even in the west in the form of wages-slavery. Point in case being that christians have another kingdom and serve another master than of this world. They are not primarily to commit themselves for social activity, or even going to rebellion but to loyally do what is beneficial for the Kingdom of God. That is our first responsibility. Paul's instructions still apply in that regard. When christians do this as they should, it will have beneficial consequences for the whole of society.

 

[tribesman]

Huh! How about that! And all this time I was thinking that Paul, who looked upon Timothy as a son, taught him the gospel. Hey, thanks for straightening me out on that.

2 Timothy 1:5 "When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.'

Y'know, that's what my bible says in the passage you mentioned, doesn't say anything about Timothy being taught by either of them. Would you mind posting your bible's version? Thanks, I appreciate it.

This is what we meet all the time in topics such as this. People reading things into the scripture which just aren't there. Or if that doesn't work, they'll say that this and that was just local or applied only to that time era, not valid anymore for us. By way of modern philosophy and anachronisms we are to read the Bible. You do realize that much of this stems from a selective Bible reading with accompanied exegesis, treating the biblical times and environments as basically more or less non-existing, or at least irrelevant to understanding same, looking for examples that fits their pre-conceived ideas about how things are to be and presumptuously pressing same into the text. They are very impudent about doing so. Some are even coming from a worse angle, they will claim that "the spirit" has revealed unto them certain things, and then it does not matter how much scriptural and historical facts you point out that disprove their claims, they still know better because "the spirit" have told them this or that. We are dealing with pride and rebellion here. At more or less extreme ends.

 

[phil112]

This is what we meet all the time in topics such as this. People reading things into the scripture which just aren't there...........................

Just simply adding words to the book that isn't there to justify one's pet doctrine. Happens everyday all day. Interesting that those who do that can't understand the words that are actually there, y'know, like adding words is not a good thing to do. 'Course, that's just my bible. From what I see in here there are lots of people that have different bibles from mine.

 

[VioletReigns]

My husband was a huge, rugged man, played guitar in a rock band, was a member of a motorcycle club, had ten earrings, tattoos, wore black leather and would probably scare the heck out of you if you saw him in a dark alley. My husband was an atheist and I could not get that man to go to church with me for nothing!

Nevertheless, the Lord kept prompting me to preach to my husband. It seemed fruitless and I often doubted that I was hearing God right. My husband had an argument for every word of God I gave to him. I reasoned that he was a wonderful man, my best friend in fact, and maybe if I just prayed for him and kept loving him would bring him to repent. NOPE! God kept speaking to my heart to tell my husband about the Redemption of Jesus Christ.

My church did not believe in women pastoring, and frankly, I agreed with them. They told me to pray and anoint my husband’s pillow, to keep quiet, do this and that, blah blah blah.. I did all those things. But the Lord kept speaking to my heart to share the Gospel with my husband.

I called my sister and asked her to pray with me about it because I had no peace “preaching” to my husband. Finally, one day while I was sitting across the room from my husband, I bowed my head and said to the Lord, “I give up… I can’t do this anymore.” The Holy Spirit right then fell on me and my mouth spoke Jesus Christ crucified, plain and simple. It was as if Jesus was speaking to my husband Himself. I was in total submission, like a spectator.

My son and daughter and I were witnesses when my husband jumped up from his desk with SUDDEN JOY, shouting, “I see! I see, Lord!” He could not stop reading the Bible after that, and he would yell out as he read, “I understand, Lord! I understand!” He was the happiest man I ever saw!! Like a child, he saw everything in a new light and was rejoicing all the time even in public places. It was amazing!

There were religious people in our church who were sinister and mean-spirited, saying dumb things to my husband. Instead of rejoicing with this big burly man in his child-like newness of joy, they spoke harshly to him with things like, “You better study that Word!” and “Make sure you refrain from your old sins!” They could not rejoice with him! It almost made him stop going to church. Thank God, we left there and found a small group of believers who walked in the liberty and joy of Jesus.

Not long after my husband’s spiritual eyes were open, he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Five months later, he went home with God. I thank the Lord I listened to the Father and shared Jesus Christ with my husband. He was my best friend on this earth and I will see him again when I go home with God.

 

[fredjames]

Now why would I suspect that another 5,000 word diatribe rife with legalism is going to erupt from your keyboard?

Some people can not stand.

Some people can only stand.

Please do not fear, i am for you sent by CHRIST and not against you.

Did JESUS say, as to teach HIS believers that?

How are we going to teach, when we do not know the commandment that JESUS our MASTER gave us, in order for us to 'keep/continue/abide' in teaching ourselves, as a disciple, and practice them in our lives first, so as to be trained and equipped and the 'log' in our own eyes is removed and then now able to see, in order to remove the speck in a another'. We are also now able to teach others the same and that is what is counted as 'believing in JESUS and have eternal life and all believers will worship the FATHER in 'unity', thus rooted in one sound doctrine Spiritual knowledge of the Kingdom of GOD written in the Holy Bible.

The Pharisees are smart and afraid of JESUS in knowledge because when JESUS asked them a question, they went aside and discuss within themselves first and carefully gave a neutral answer saying, 'they do not know'.

So dear JackH, you too gave a neutral answer. Lets say it is better to 'kneel', to show humble and humility for those who are able. So there is already a division in believe, for the interpretation diversify.

What did JESUS actually teach about this matter to a disciple?

Then how are we going to 'preach', 'teach' and 'baptize' lost people rightfully into the Kingdom of GOD?

 

[fredjames]

What is most interesting in this passage is that Jesus will NOT say, "Depart from Me, you never knew Me." On the contrary, He will say, "I never knew YOU."

Jesus will never say "Depart" to those He knows and He does know me. He knows my heart because I do not hide from Him. I run to Him with confidence in Him and bring everything to His throne of grace. I have no confidence in myself at all because He has taught me that I do not even know my own motives until He reveals them to me by His Holy Spirit within me. I could never boast of having great wisdom or the ability to do anything of myself. I know that anything that is accomplished through me for the cause of Christ is by the glory and grace of the Lord Himself. I am His, that is all I can boast about, and PRAISE YOU, GOD for that!! Hallelujah! \/

Anyhow, I won't continue this debate with those who obviously feel they are right in their own eyes and have built up a case for themselves. They are contentious and spiteful, mean-spirited and show no grace. The Lord's will be done concerning them. God can correct them because only He knows the motives of their heart.

But to those brothers and sisters who are as I am, seeking God on the matter in humility and readiness of heart, don't concern yourself with religious and angry men's opinions, seek the Holy Spirit and trust the Lord to show you the truth.

Timothy received his name, which means “one who honors God,” from his mother (Eunice) and grandmother (Lois), devout Jews who became believers in the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Tim. 1:5) and taught Timothy the Scriptures from his childhood (2 Tim. 3:15). His father was a Greek (Acts 16:1). So it was his mother & grandmother who taught Timothy the Word of God, not his father.

Faithful one of CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT, i have a question for you as for me learn better from you, since you are given tha authority to 'teach'.

'In church what is your 'posture' during prayers?

And please give the Scripture to know that JESUS taught this for us 'disciples' to follow.

Thank you blessed one.

 

[VioletReigns]

Faithful one of CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT, i have a question for you as for me learn better from you, since you are given tha authority to 'teach'.

'In church what is your 'posture' during prayers?

And please give the Scripture to know that JESUS taught this for us 'disciples' to follow.

Thank you blessed one.

Then JESUS said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” Going a little farther, He fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.” [Matthew 26:38-39]

JESUS withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Your will be done.” An angel from heaven appeared to Him and strengthened Him. And being in anguish, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground. [Luke 22:41-44]

About eight days after JESUS said this, He took Peter, John and James with Him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As He was praying, the appearance of His face changed, and His clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with JESUS. They spoke about His departure, which He was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter and His companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. [Luke 9:28-32]

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed. [John 17:1]

I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer [1 Timothy 2:8]

 

[VioletReigns]

fredjames, though I can't discern whether or not you are trying to coax me into some form of trick question, God does know your motive. I do know that you by your own words in your previous comments that you do not accept a woman's teaching so why would you ask me now to "teach" you what posture one should assume for prayer in church?

Let me ask you, what position do you take? Did Yahweh put on your heart to teach me? If so, I'm listening.

I will tell you this, when the Holy Spirit tells me to kneel, I am on my knees! When the Holy Spirit tells me to lay prostrate, I'm on my face! When the Holy Spirit tells me to look up, I look up! When He says lift up your hands, my hands are up! When Yahweh tells me to bow my head and be still, that I do! If the pastor tells that entire congregation to do a thing and the Holy Spirit tells me to do something otherwise, I will obey God's Voice! I fear God, not in the sense that I will incite His wrath, but because I know He says something for a holy purpose!

I don't know the mind of God but I trust His ways. I don't call myself anything, not a teacher, not a pastor, not a deaconess, but God knows who I am in Him. I'm not cut from any honorable cloth, I have no degree in theology, I've never been to a seminary or had religious schooling. I've been discipled by many pastors, who all happened to be men of God, over the course of 30+ years.... but what has been the most influential of all was that I keep running out of resources and strength, I keep coming up short and am bankrupt of reason, I keep falling on my face in surrender and abandon my mind and even my hope of life to the Lord Jesus... and He keeps getting more glorious and mighty to me. If you really want to know a thing, I suggest you ask the Lord Himself. He is faithful to answer you. I know that for sure.

 

[MarcR]

So you are saying that women are not called by God to act as God's Spokeswomen?

Do you say that a female pastor is engaging in sinful behavior that must be repented and turned away from?

Do you say that a female who teaches/preaches from a church pulpit is engaging in sinful behavior that must be repented and turned away from?

I am saying that as I read the scripture it appears to me that God wants the role of pastor to be a male role.

If another person does not share my understanding they are accountable to God not to me.

 

[didymos]

... Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

No, God's Word is valid, regardless. (Numbers 23:19)
It does however stresses the need for prayer. (Luke 10:4)

 

[JackH]

So dear JackH, you too gave a neutral answer. Lets say it is better to 'kneel', to show humble and humility for those who are able. So there is already a division in believe, for the interpretation diversify.

What did JESUS actually teach about this matter to a disciple?

I gave a neutral answer because the right answer is neutral.

A female quadriplegic in a wheelchair can pray in her wheelchair.

She can also preach, teach, prophesy, and pastor from her wheelchair.

I'm more interested in what Jesus said to a female disciple.

What to you suppose that is?

You can find the best answer in your bible, but I doubt you will.

 

[JackH]

I am saying that as I read the scripture it appears to me that God wants the role of pastor to be a male role.

If another person does not share my understanding they are accountable to God not to me.

Obviously some who have posted on this thread believe a woman who pastors is engaging in sinful behavior.

Right?

Some also believe a woman who is preaching/teaching to men is engaging in sinful behavior.

Right?

Sinful behavior must be repented and turned away from.

Right?

 

[VioletReigns]

I am saying that as I read the scripture it appears to me that God wants the role of pastor to be a male role.

If another person does not share my understanding they are accountable to God not to me.

Brother Marc, thank you for exhibiting a Christ-like spirit of meekness and graciousness, as opposed to some of the men here who are twisted in knots of anger, pride and bitterness. I have no interest in hearing anything further from these resentful men. But to you I am willing to acknowledge that I honestly am not 100% clear on the roles of women in the church.

I know that I Timothy 2:11 & 12 is referring to husbands and wives. It states that the wife should not Lord over the husband. But no other place in the scripture teaches that all women should be under authority of all men in the church. If this passage in I Timothy is to be interpreted the traditional way, this makes a different and unusual pattern of submission. The NT consistently teaches that a wife should be under the authority of her husband and that fits the larger context of this scripture much better.

In I Timothy chapter 3 it talks about church leadership. There is where I am getting confused. It talks of bishops and deacons having "one wife" - so obviously it's speaking to men. But then in Romans 16 Paul mentions Phoebe who is a servant, which is interpreted "deacon" (deaconess?) and minister.

So now I'm left wondering about all the roles/titles in the modern day church:
bishop
pastor
reverend
minister
deacon
prophet/prophetess
priest
teacher

Brother Marc, are you (or anybody else on this site who is humbly submitted to the Lord) able to define each of these roles in a way that I can see clearly?

 

[JackH]

Brother Marc, thank you for exhibiting a Christ-like spirit of meekness and graciousness, as opposed to some of the men here who are twisted in knots of anger, pride and bitterness. I have no interest in hearing anything further from these resentful men. But to you I am willing to acknowledge that I honestly am not 100% clear on the roles of women in the church.

I know that I Timothy 2:11 & 12 is referring to husbands and wives. It states that the wife should not Lord over the husband. But no other place in the scripture teaches that all women should be under authority of all men in the church. If this passage in I Timothy is to be interpreted the traditional way, this makes a different and unusual pattern of submission. The NT consistently teaches that a wife should be under the authority of her husband and that fits the larger context of this scripture much better.

In I Timothy chapter 3 it talks about church leadership. There is where I am getting confused. It talks of bishops and deacons having "one wife" - so obviously it's speaking to men. But then in Romans 16 Paul mentions Phoebe who is a servant, which is interpreted "deacon" (deaconess?) and minister.

So now I'm left wondering about all the roles/titles in the modern day church:
bishop
pastor
reverend
minister
deacon
prophet/prophetess
priest
teacher

Brother Marc, are you (or anybody else on this site who is humbly submitted to the Lord) able to define each of these roles in a way that I can see clearly?

I'm holding my breath waiting for an answer to this.

LOL.

 

[Dan_473]

You are shooting at something that you are not yet clear or open about with your stressing that we need to implement a change in Bible reading, understanding the Bible with the situation of our present timeline as the rule. Anyway, in the sense that these scriptures apply to a situation today equivalent of that of Paul's day, then basically the answer to your question is yes. Slavery is not a homogenous phenomena. One can argue (and some do) that slavery still exists even in the west in the form of wages-slavery. Point in case being that christians have another kingdom and serve another master than of this world. They are not primarily to commit themselves for social activity, or even going to rebellion but to loyally do what is beneficial for the Kingdom of God. That is our first responsibility. Paul's instructions still apply in that regard. When christians do this as they should, it will have beneficial consequences for the whole of society.

I'm not saying we need to implement a change in bible reading... I'm saying the change has already happened (and I think that's a good thing)... so, if you were captured by slavers, would you try to escape?