Can a Christian be sinless, perfect?

[michael56]

Friend Faith does not wait till it sees to believe, for it will never see until it believes.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Faith comes by the word of God:

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I do not need to attain to believe, I do not say to God Ill believe it when I see it. No rather I plant my faith firmly on His promises and push forward to the High calling we have in Christ. Knowing that He is able to do all that He has promised.

God Has promised to direct our very thoughts:

Pro 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

and again:

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

He has promised to give me a new heart and His Spirit:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

He has promised to make a way out of every temptation that comes to me:

1Co_10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

He has promised that though I am weak His strength will manifest.

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.




He has promised to direct my paths to not look at the impossibility but to look to Him:

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

He has promised to keep me from falling/sin:

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

You say it is impossible to cease form sin, I say how can we fail if our faith is planted in the promises of His word?

I say its impossible to walk on water, yet Peter did it as he followed the example of Jesus. And as long as his eyes were on Jesus he was able to do the impossible in Gods power not His own.

Peter fell when he looked at the problem, could it be that you are doing as Peter did? focusing on the impossibility instead of the promises of our God. Its time to get out of the boat friend, all things are possible with Jesus in our gaze.

According to your belief you will be sinless on this earth, unless you are not fully committed to God. Is that a wrong deduction?

 

[gotime]

According to your belief you will be sinless on this earth, unless you are not fully committed to God. Is that a wrong deduction?

depends on how you read those promises. If they are true where do they lead?

If God changes my very thoughts, writes his law on my heart, gives me a new heart, puts his strength in place of my weakness, directs my paths, keeps me from temptation, strengthens me by His Spirit, keeps me from falling. then what is the result?

 

[newbirth]

Only 'cause I luv ya'. . .you little twit.

Read the text:
"what may be known about God is plain to them, because God made it plain to them,"
in creation (vv. 19-20).

This is the pagan knowledge of God to which v. 21 is referring, the knowledge made plain
in creation (v. 20), which leaves them "without excuse" for not glorifying God, not giving thanks
to him, and instead worshipping idols.

then faith did not come by hearing...

No, Paul is establishing the unrighteousness of all mankind in Ro 1-3,
beginning with the Gentiles in Ro 1:18-32,
then going to the unrighteousness of the Jews in Ro 2:1-3:8,
and concluding with the unrighteousness of all mankind in Ro 3:9-20,
to establish the spiritual condition of all mankind as sinners and in need of salvation.

He then introduces that salvation in Ro 3:21, which has been provided by God through Jesus Christ
and his redemptive work on the cross. However, God's provision must be received by faith--the
principle by which God has always dealt with mankind, as the example of Abraham (Ro 4) shows.

And then he moves on to the Christian doctrine of Christian righteousness in chps 5-8,
the vindication of God's righteousness in the rejection of unbelieving Israel in chps 9-11,
and practice of righteousness by the believer in chps 12-15.

scripture concludes all under sin there is no more Jews or gentiles ...it is either you are in Christ or not...you are contending that Paul is writing or referring to ignorant pagan gentile...this is who it is addressed to...

[SUP]7 [/SUP]To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

the last part of vs 18 is the key to this dilemma...... who hold the truth in unrighteousness;......you are contending that the ignorant unsaved and unregenerate can hold the truth..in unrighteousness...and that God had showed them the truth...if God had showed the ignorant unsaved pagan ....then they heard the message and rejected it....if this is not so then you also are rejected even before you had received Christ...because you were also without excuse...

 

[wolfwint]

Maby an answer you will find in 1. John 3, 2 . Not yet, but we will be when wir are in eternety. Our human body cant be sinnless.

 

[Jeff_56]

now now, that is not for you to say. You do not truly know if this person obeys or not.

that's true.

other's though, who aren't deceived, even unbelievers, they can know as they see the true ekklesia living in their neighborhood and as yahshua said "they know we are his disciples by the love we have for one another", and in practical terms, they see the complete difference in the lives of true believers vs the hypocrites, and the complete about-face change in a new believer's life vs his past life when they (the outside observers) were familiar with it.

as they saw in cornelius's household(in a very different sense, yet similar). and many others (though few in number percentage-wise compared to the exhausting number of pagan households). (most famous world wide true believers perhaps being the Ten Boom family in nazi germany before and after and during the war.

 

[Elin]

Only 'cause I luv ya'. . .you little twit.

Read the text:
"what may be known about God is plain to them, because God made it plain to them,"
in creation (vv. 19-20).

This is not referring to the gospel, but to the existence of God and what they owed him.

This is the pagan knowledge of God to which v. 21 is referring, the knowledge made plain
in creation (v. 20), which leaves them "without excuse" for not giving God what they owed him--
glory, thanks and worship, and instead worshipping idols.

then faith did not come by hearing...

"Hearing" means hearing the gospel, not observing creation.

The Gentiles had not heard the gospel, but they had observed creation and ignored its testimony
to the existence of God and his right to glory, thanksgiving and worship from them, which they
did not give him.

No, Paul is establishing the unrighteousness of all mankind in Ro 1-3,
beginning with the Gentiles in Ro 1:18-32,
then going to the unrighteousness of the Jews in Ro 2:1-3:8,
and concluding with the unrighteousness of all mankind in Ro 3:9-20,
to establish the spiritual condition of all mankind as sinners and in need of salvation.

He then introduces that salvation in Ro 3:21, which has been provided by God through Jesus Christ
and his redemptive work on the cross. However, God's provision must be received by faith--the
principle by which God has always dealt with mankind, as the example of Abraham (Ro 4) shows.

And then he moves on to the Christian doctrine of Christian righteousness in chps 5-8,
the vindication of God's righteousness in the rejection of unbelieving Israel in chps 9-11,
and practice of righteousness by the believer in chps 12-15.

scripture concludes all under sin there is no more Jews or gentiles ...it is either you are in Christ or not...
you are contending that Paul is writing or referring to ignorant pagan gentile...

Paul is not writing to Gentiles, but he is clearly saying that he is speaking of Gentiles in Ro 1:18-32.

this is who it is addressed to...

[SUP]7 [/SUP]To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Right. . .Paul is not writing to Gentiles, but he is definitely and clearly referring to Gentiles.

the last part of vs 18 is the key to this dilemma...... who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

To "hold the truth in unrighteousness" is to "suppress the truth in wickedness."

They suppressed the truth about the existence of God, and the glory, thanksgiving and worship they owed him, and did not give him.

......you are contending that the ignorant unsaved and unregenerate can hold the truth..in unrighteousness...and
that God had showed them the truth...

Yes, the truth of his existence, and the glory, thanksgiving and worship they owed him (1:19-20),
and did not give him. . .not the truth of the gospel.

if God had showed the ignorant unsaved pagan ....then they heard the message and rejected it....if this is not so then you also are rejected even before you had received Christ...because you were also without excuse...

You're mixing apples and oranges.

Yes, I was condemned before I received Christ because of sin, as are all men before they receive Christ.

But Paul is speaking here of the Gentiles being condemned because they rejected the knowledge of
God's existence and what they owed him, which is made plain to them in creation,
not because they rejected the message of the gospel which they had not heard.

 

[newbirth]

"Hearing" means hearing the gospel, not observing creation.

The Gentiles had not heard the gospel, but they had observed creation and ignored its testimony
to the existence of God and his right to glory, thanksgiving and worship from them, which they
did not give him.

so God brought the gospel to men and destroys them without the gospel being preached to them??? so what is the point of putting it in the scripture???

Paul is not writing to Gentiles, but he is clearly saying that he is speaking of Gentiles in Ro 1:18-32.

Paul is writing to the Church in Rome...and among them would be those were gentiles but now saved....God is not going around destroying gentiles who have not heard the word....itis those who have heard the word and rejecte him

Right. . .Paul is not writing to Gentiles, but he is definitely and clearly referring to Gentiles.

that would be gentiles in the Church if they had rejected God

To "hold the truth in unrighteousness" is to "suppress the truth in wickedness."

They suppressed the truth about the existence of God, and the glory, thanksgiving and worship they owed him, and did not give him.

before you heard of Christ where you suppressing the truth in wickedness????

Yes, the truth of his existence, and the glory, thanksgiving and worship they owed him (1:19-20),
and did not give him. . .not the truth of the gospel.

what does the ungodly owe god???Proverbs 15:8
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 15:26
The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

vs 28 says they did not like to retain God in their minds....how does an unbeliever retain God in his mind...and before we came to Christ we did not like to retain God in our minds...why was this judgement not passed on us...why did we not become reprobate....???

You're mixing apples and oranges.

Yes, I was condemned before I received Christ because of sin, as are all men before they receive Christ.

but you also rejected God's message I am sure as I did countless times before receiving Christ as Lord...what makes us so different from other gentiles....that he gives them up but not us...

But Paul is speaking here of the Gentiles being condemned because they rejected the knowledge of
God's existence and what they owed him, which is made plain to them in creation,
not because they rejected the message of the gospel which they had not heard.

then we all would be in that category and would have a reprobate mind and could not have been saved...seeing we were all in darkness before the light of Jesus Christ shined on us...

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[ChristInUs]

OSAS is a lie

 

[Elin]

so God brought the gospel to men and destroys them without the gospel being preached to them??? so what is the point of putting it in the scripture???
Paul is writing to the Church in Rome...and among them would be those were gentiles but now saved....God is not going around destroying gentiles who have not heard the word....itis those who have heard the word and rejecte him

that would be gentiles in the Church if they had rejected God

before you heard of Christ where you suppressing the truth in wickedness????

what does the ungodly owe god???Proverbs 15:8
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 15:26
The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

vs 28 says they did not like to retain God in their minds....how does an unbeliever retain God in his mind...and before we came to Christ we did not like to retain God in our minds...why was this judgement not passed on us...why did we not become reprobate....???

but you also rejected God's message I am sure as I did countless times before receiving Christ as Lord...what makes us so different from other gentiles....that he gives them up but not us...

then we all would be in that category and would have a reprobate mind and could not have been saved...seeing we were all in darkness before the light of Jesus Christ shined on us...

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The meaning of Romans 1 and of my posts speak for themselves.

 

[newbirth]

The meaning of Romans 1 and of my posts speak for themselves.

your meaning of Romans1 and your posts speak for you....

 

[DiscipleDave]

Can a Christian stop sinning altogether?

Depends on your view of Jesus.

Is He the creator?
Did He destroy the works of the Devil?

There is your answer.

The problem here is people are letting the fact that we grow make sin ok. Yes we grow but growing indicates a change.

For what plant grows yet remains the same, Or what child grows and remains a child?

So it with those who are born of the Spirit, the grow from faith to faith till all sin is banished by the Lord Jesus Christ.

You can't get closer to Jesus without getting further from sin.

Well said.

^i^ Responding to post# 133

 

[DiscipleDave]

If a Christian could reach the point of ceasing from all sin they would no longer need a saviour, I still do

This is not True, i could not do it every single day without Him. Satan will never give up tempting me to commit sin. i hate sin, i hate everything about it. my Savior and Lord had to die because of sin, why on Earth would i, loving Him, want to continue to live in the very thing that He had to die for? Also why on Earth would i obey His enemy and knowingly and willingly commit sin? Tell me, Someone who claims to love you, obeys your mortal enemy, how is that LOVE. i LOVE Jesus, i will not obey His enemy, Jesus does not like that, and i do all things to please Him.
But without Him, i could not do it at all, when i am tempted, i seek Him, i call out to Him, i pray to Him to help me, satan is tempting me to commit sin. you do error saying

If a Christian could reach the point of ceasing from all sin they would no longer need a saviour,

i could not continue to do it without Him. He is my Strength and Power against all the wiles of the devil.
The key for me, is this. When Peter walked on the water, he was doing that which is impossible to do, How did He do it? His eyes, and mind was on Jesus Christ. It is only when he looked away from Jesus that he sank like a stone. i have ceased from all sinning because i do not take my eyes or my thoughts off of Jesus Christ, when i work i am listening to the Bible 8 hours a day, when i drive i am praying and praising Him, when i am home i am reading, studying the Bible or other Christian related books, or on the many message boards that i belong too, or on yahoo Answers, or working on my podcast, or working on my book that i am going to publish, or working on the website you see below in signature. The moment i take my eyes off of Christ, is the very moment satan and his minions are ready to pounce on me and tempt me to get me to fall. They, satan and his minions, have lost me, they can't have me, and they are continually looking for a crack in the Armour of God that i have on, any way they can get in to me, they Fail continually, because i keep my eyes and my thoughts ALWAYS on Him, and only Him. i could not do it without Him.

^i^ Responding to post #135

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said : With man it is impossible, but If Jesus is your Strength and Power, it is very possible. i am proof of it. i do not knowingly and willingly commit any sin against my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. With every temptation that comes upon me, Jesus allows a path out for me, He also makes sure i can handle it. This is the narrow and difficult path that only a very few will take.
A good tree does not produce any bad fruits, Many claim to be a good tree, yet they produce one or two bad fruits, Any tree that produces any bad fruits is a bad tree.
Again, with man it is impossible, but with God it is very possible, i know, i live it.

Read all my articles by clicking the website below. It is possible, the question is, what are you willing to give up for Jesus?
Many say they are willing to give up their lives for Him, yet they do not give up the sin that so easily besets them.
Jesus gave His life for me, i in a like manner have given my life to Him, i do all things to please Him, i am His slave and servant, i do not knowingly and willingly commit any sin. What does the Bible call those who can't cease from sin? Cursed Children. Do you know why they are cursed? Because if a person believes it is not possible, they will never try will they? It is only when you believe (faith) that it is possible, and try, that is when Jesus will give you His Strength, His Power, to overcome all temptations that may come upon you. But as long as you think it is not possible, its not for you.

who do you say the Apostle John is addressing when he makes the plain statement that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us?

Any person who say they have no sin, is a liar and the Truth is not in that person. i myself HAVE sinned plenty, probably more then everyone reading this combined, i have sinned much. i am not saying i have no sin, or that i have never sinned, what i do say however is that i no longer continue to knowingly and willingly commit sin. But anyone who says they HAVE NO SIN, is a liar and the Truth is not in them.

^i^ Responding to post #137

 

[DiscipleDave]

ANY PERSON WHO BELIEVES THEY HAVE CEASED FROM ALL SIN DOES NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THE LAW OF GOD TRULY DEMANDS.

i have ceased from knowingly and willingly committing sin, what law of God do i not understand?

^i^ Responding to post# 139

 

[DiscipleDave]

John means you do not sin in your born again spirit but you do in the flesh.

This is what YOU think it means, don't say it is what John means. John is clear, and speaks plainly, it is man who tries to say what he really means, when they do not agree with what John plainly says. It is your opinion that what John said is you do not sin in your born again spirit but you do in the flesh, and that opinion is found nowhere in all of Scriptures.

^i^ Responding to post #143

 

[DiscipleDave]

Only on the internet-never in the flesh have I come across Christians who either believe they have attained to, or can be perfect in the flesh.

What hope is there for us?

And yet there are many verses that plainly teach us HOW to not obey the flesh and its desires, strange there are verses that teach us how not to obey the flesh, when you say it is not possible. lol. if the Bible teaches us to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and it teaches to put away the desires of the flesh and it teaches us not to obey the flesh, and it teaches us to mortify the deeds of the flesh, i assure you with no doubts whatsoever it is possible. Difficult? yes, impossible? not at all. Narrow and difficult path that must be FOUND, Yep that's it too. Many will not do it, but a few will.

^i^ Responding to post #145

 

[DiscipleDave]

I go with what peter said as quoted.

I believe that Jesus is stronger than our sinful nature and in Christ it is put to death.

This is not a question about what you and I can or can't do, Jesus answered that one:

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

This is a question of what Can God do now that we have been reconciled to Him by the blood of Jesus.

I believe that He who created the heavens and the Earth, who made man from the dust of the earth and his own breath and made man in his image. I believe He can re-create me back into His image by His word spoken through the Law and the Prophets and the Apostles and His Son Jesus.

I believe that the voice who said let there be light and there was, who said peace be still and the wind and waves obeyed, who said come forth and the dead raised to life.

I believe that God can heal me of my sin fully. I believe that He who called sickness and spirits to depart from those who had no strength to help themselves Has the same power to call me from a life of sin to a life of holiness.

I believe that when God speaks then power is supplied through His words accessed by Faith/Trust in Him.

I believe that sin originated from the Devil and Jesus destroyed the works of the Devil.

I believe that God can take out my heart of stone from whence evil comes and give me a heart of flesh as promised.

I believe that God can make me a new creature and that my evil nature is put to death through the blood and life of Christ.

I believe anything is possible with God.

And I don't let experience dictate what is or is not possible but rather I trust In Jesus and His word.

Well said, Verily you are not far from the Kingdom of God. You have not learned this from men and what they teach, this Truth comes from my Master Jesus Christ.

^i^

 

[newbirth]

If a Christian could reach the point of ceasing from all sin they would no longer need a saviour, I still do

why would you say that???? Christ came to save us from sin and death...and it is he who keeps us free from sins...
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

the scripture says sin not.....you are saying you cannot stop sinning...if that is the case then you are not saved...and in bondage to sin....if you have a saviour who does not save you from sin...then your saviour is not Christ...He saves us from sins

 

[DiscipleDave]

Do you perfectly live your life according to Jesus commands in Matthew chs 5, 6 & 7?

I don't think you do

i do, But not only Matthew chs 5,6 & 7 But i live my life according to all things that Jesus and His Apostle taught us to do. NOT just three chapters of Matthew.
Are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to do what Jesus told Christians to do in Matt 5-7? Or is it True, you THINK it is impossible because YOU can't do it?
You can do it, with Jesus to help you and give you Strength to do it, the question is how bad do you want to do it? If you dedicated your life to DO that which Matt chap 5-7 teach, i assure you, that you would do it, its a matter of how bad you want to do it.
It is easy to say it is impossible, because as long as you think that, then you don't have to try to do them. Jesus gave us His life for YOU, what are you willing to give up for Him? Should it not be your life as well? Anyone who chooses to live by the Word of God and what it says, will be hated by this world, they will be despised in this world, they will be mocked and possibly even killed by the people in this world, Anyone who chooses to live by what the Word of God says and teaches will indeed give up their life. i, myself, i have no life, it is not mine, my life belongs to Him, my thoughts are continually on Him, i do all things to please Him, i have no friends, i have been celibate now for 7.5 years, i am married to Him. i have chosen to give up all pleasure in this life, for Him, i have given up sex, for Him, i have given up watching TV for Him, i have given up cussing for Him, i have given up smoking for Him, i have given up porn for Him, i have given up my life for Him because He gave His life for me, i am His to do with as He sees fit, i do all things to please my Savior and Lord Jesus Christ.
Strange as it may seem, i have never been happier in my entire life.
Again, what are you willing to give up for Him, i gave up sinning against Him.

^i^ Responding to post#160

 

[Jeff_56]

"abiding" in and with and in union with yahshua messiah savior king is necessary and written many times in the NT.

his word abides in us who are immersed in him. immersed every day, all day long, our hearts and souls and minds and voices and spirits immersed in yahshua's life all day long, all night long, all the time.

some, many, or most believers, whether truly believers and followers of yahshua or not, do not abide

in him daily, and that is a great loss for them. and grievous as our yahweh is a jealous yahweh(for which see torah) because

even "his" people spend so much time wastefully and even wickedly serving self, idols and demons/sin/flesh. "his" whether in name only, or in truth if some are just for a while being carnal, sinful, wicked,
and
may be forgiven if yahweh chooses to forgive them.

i.e. even and or especially always after being saved, yahshua hamashiach messiah savior is needed to

be able to keep walking with him. sheep without the shepherd get eaten by the wolves, or trapped in a ravine, or if rolled over on their back may not be able to get up again on their own and will die if not helped
by the shepherd.