Working out our Salvation

[forsha]

I will have to draw a sketch here so it is clear to the readers what is actually being communicated between us. All that Christ did for our salvation was completed at the cross. However, scripture clearly shows that our justification is given us in time (not from eternity or at time of crucifixion) upon being regenerated and as a fruit believing in this finished work. Not before that. The way you want to have it is that what you call "eternal salvation" is something which is totally abstract and without any MEANS whatsoever. All scriptures regarding salvation in scripture you would say is only about timely salvation. In effect, with your view, one does need (or rather manifest the fruit of) believe in Christ, in the gospel, receive baptism or anything. It is good if one have any or all of these, but they do not mean anything as to our "eternal salvation". In fact one may even die in unbelief and yet be "eternally saved" with your view. Because to say that salvation comes by any MEANS for you would mean that it is conditional or dependent on or even a work of man. With this faulty logic you come to most weak conclusions like saying that if a person shows a "desire" to know God and to learn about "spiritual things" then that is evidence that this person can be elect or eternally saved. In an earlier post, under your old username forest, you suggested that Noah's mission was merely to have people saved from being drowned, however there was people who drowned in the flood who yet were "eternally saved". You also suggested that the non-believing jews, who Paul addressed in Rom.10 were eternally saved, because he called them "brethren". These are just some examples of the extreme and bizarre things your Primitive baptist tradition has led you to believe about salvation.

Please, tribsman, don't misquote me as saying "all salvation scriptures are applied to timely deliverances". We are eternally saved by God's grace and his grace alone, without the help of man, and there are several scriptures that verify that. God choose his elect before the foundation of the world, not based upon their good works and sent Christ to this earth for the purpose of redeeming his elect from eternal damnation, which John 6:39 clearly points out. In my understanding of the scriptures God gets all of the praise and glory for saving his elect, and man gets no praise at all. This understanding will make all of the scriptures harmonize.

 

[Elin]

Keeping in mind that NT Scripture is written in Greek, and the word the and of are not in the Greek text of Gal 2:16.

They have been added by the KJV translators, which deviates from the original Scriptures of Gal 2:16.

If you are going to not use the words "OF" and "THE", and believe that
it is your faith that justifies you, how do you
explain the carnal man being restricted from discerning spiritual things in 1 Cor 2:14?

Good question.

can you make Gal 2:16 harmonize with 1 Cor 2:14?
If it is "your faith" that justifies you, then eternal salvation is by works of man and not by the grace of God.
That's letting man get the praise and honor instead of God.

Well, not really. . .it's just the opposite.

Remember that faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:37; Ro 12:3), not a work of man.
Also gifts are
repentance (2Ti 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31) and
justification/righteousness (Ro 4:17).

So God gets all the glory--for faith, repentance and justification.

 

[forsha]

Good question.


Well, not really. . .it's just the opposite.

Remember that faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:37; Ro 12:3), not a work of man.
Also gifts are
repentance (2Ti 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31) and
justification/righteousness (Ro 4:17).

So God gets all the glory--for faith, repentance and justification.

I have made Gal 2:16 and 1 Cor 2:14 harmonize by interpreting Gal 2:16 correctly as Jesus's faith and not man's faith. What is your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14?

 

[tribesman]

Please, tribsman, don't misquote me as saying "all salvation scriptures are applied to timely deliverances". We are eternally saved by God's grace and his grace alone, without the help of man, and there are several scriptures that verify that. God choose his elect before the foundation of the world, not based upon their good works and sent Christ to this earth for the purpose of redeeming his elect from eternal damnation, which John 6:39 clearly points out. In my understanding of the scriptures God gets all of the praise and glory for saving his elect, and man gets no praise at all. This understanding will make all of the scriptures harmonize.

Can you tell us now then which scriptures are about eternal salvation and which ones are about timely salvation, as you see it?

Needless to say God gets all praise for the salvation of the elect and He does not share this praise with men. But salvation does not come totally without means.

 

[forsha]

Good question.


Well, not really. . .it's just the opposite.

Remember that faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:37; Ro 12:3), not a work of man.
Also gifts are
repentance (2Ti 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31) and
justification/righteousness (Ro 4:17).

So God gets all the glory--for faith, repentance and justification.

Yes, faith is a gift of God, because it is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:23. And how do we have the Spirit? Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ, which is the only way that the carnal man will be able to discern spiritual things. The carnal man can never be connected as being those in Gal 2:16 who believe.

 

[forsha]

Can you tell us now then which scriptures are about eternal salvation and which ones are about timely salvation, as you see it?

Needless to say God gets all praise for the salvation of the elect and He does not share this praise with men. But salvation does not come totally without means.

Rom 10:9 is a timely salvation (deliverance) that far too many use as eternal salvation. The men that Paul was giving these instructions to were already eternally saved according to verse 2 of the same chapter as Paul bear them record that they have a zeal (devotion) of God, but not according to knowledge. There is a timely salvation in coming to a knowledge of the truth. There are many, many more if you want more. Could you give me some of the "means"?

 

[Elin]

Well, not really. . .it's just the opposite.

Remember that faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:37; Ro 12:3), not a work of man.
Also gifts are
repentance (2Ti 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31)and
justification/righteousness (Ro 4:17).

So God gets all the glory--for faith, repentance and justification.

Yes, faith is a gift of God, because it is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:23.

So, for faith to be his gift to us, we would have the Spirit before we even come to faith.

And we would receive the Spirit in our rebirth from spiritual death, right?

So the gift of the Spirit himself in the rebirth
is the Spirit who gives us the gifts of faith, repentance and justification.

So all the glory goes to God, right? . . .and not to anything that we ourselves have done, including faith.

And how do we have the Spirit?

Only by the rebirth.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ, which is the only way that the carnal man will be able to discern spiritual things. The carnal man can never be connected as being those in Gal 2:16 who believe.

"Carnal" simply means "flesh."

The carnal Christian is living according the flesh (old nature) rather than the Spirit (Ro 8:13).
Paul addresses these Christians to live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Gal 5:16-17)

 

[Elin]

Remember that faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:37; Ro 12:3), not a work of man.
Also gifts are
repentance (2Ti 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31) and
justification/righteousness (Ro 4:17).

So God gets all the glory--for faith, repentance and justification.

I have made Gal 2:16 and 1 Cor 2:14 harmonize by
interpreting Gal 2:16 correctly as Jesus's faith and not man's faith.

You see that is my problem.

How do you know that is the correct interpretation when the Greek does not read:

"the faith of Jesus Christ," but instead reads:

"faith Jesus Christ"?

What is your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14?

"The man without the Spirit" would be the unregenerate man, the man who is not born again.

While the "carnal" man, would be the man living according to the flesh (old nature)
rather than the Spirit (Ro 8:13).
Paul addresses these to live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Gal 5:16-17)

 

[forsha]

So, for faith to be his gift to us, we would have the Spirit before we even come to faith.

And we would receive the Spirit in our rebirth from spiritual death, right?

So the gift of the Spirit himself in the rebirth
is the Spirit who gives us the gifts of faith, repentance and justification.

So all the glory goes to God, right? . . .and not to anything that we ourselves have done, including faith.


Only by the rebirth.


"Carnal" simply means "flesh."

The carnal Christian is living according the flesh (old nature) rather than the Spirit (Ro 8:13).
Paul addresses these Christians to live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Gal 5:16-17)

Before we are reborn of the Spirit we have but one personality which is of the flesh, but after we are reborn of the Spirit we then have two personalities, the flesh and the Spirit. We never lose the flesh nature in rebirth. Paul says that all reborn has a warring going on inside of us and that we often lose that war and lust after the things of the flesh. Rom 7:23. At the times that we slip back into our old nature of the flesh, we do not lose our eternal salvation, but we do lose our relationship with God until we repent and he forgives us. If Paul was not able to walk in the Spirit all of the time, I suspect that none of us can either.

 

[Elin]

So, for faith to be his gift to us, we would have the Spirit before we even come to faith.

And we would receive the Spirit in our rebirth from spiritual death, right?

So the gift of the Spirit himself in the rebirth
is the Spirit who gives us the gifts of faith, repentance and justification.

So all the glory goes to God, right? . . .and not to anything that we ourselves have done, including faith.

Only by the rebirth.

"Carnal" simply means "flesh."

The carnal Christian is living according the flesh (old nature) rather than the Spirit (Ro 8:13).
Paul addresses these Christians to live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Gal 5:16-17)

Before we are reborn of the Spirit we have but one personality which is of the flesh, but after we are reborn of the Spirit we then have two personalities, the flesh and the Spirit. We never lose the flesh nature in rebirth. Paul says that all reborn has a warring going on inside of us and that we often lose that war and lust after the things of the flesh. Rom 7:23. At the times that we slip back into our old nature of the flesh, we do not lose our eternal salvation, but we do lose our relationship with God until we repent and he forgives us. If Paul was not able to walk in the Spirit all of the time, I suspect that none of us can either.

Agreed! . . .

 

[tribesman]

Rom 10:9 is a timely salvation (deliverance) that far too many use as eternal salvation.

This is a quiet extreme view. What leads you to conclude that the context and the aim of Paul's address in Rom.10 is about nothing else than timely salvation?

The men that Paul was giving these instructions to were already eternally saved according to verse 2 of the same chapter as Paul bear them record that they have a zeal (devotion) of God, but not according to knowledge. There is a timely salvation in coming to a knowledge of the truth.

Paul spoke to the brethren of faith regarding those jews who still were not in the faith, thus they were still lost, not saved. Nothing in the text or its context implies that Paul meant that their lostness was merely regarding temporal, timely matters. To conclude that these lost men, at that point were "eternally saved" seems like nothing but a far-fetched and presumptuous way of reading your own (or someone else's) pre-conceived ideas into the text. Of course there is a possibility that these lost men were of the elect and later would come to faith. However, they were at that time he spoke this at least not regenerate, and therefore not also justified. All those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel, are lost. Not saved. Paul prayed for these non-believers that they might be saved. In context it deals with the issue of righteousness which is definitely connected to "eternal salvation". He rebuked their self-righteousness just for what it was indicating: lostness. If they died in such state they would not be "eternally saved".

There are many, many more if you want more. Could you give me some of the "means"?

Go ahead and list all the scriptures. The means are conversion, faith in Christ and baptism and also communion. These are means for the elect to both receive God's salvation and/or have assurance of same.

Let's just take a look at Rom.10 finally:

Rom.10

[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
[5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
[6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
[8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The zeal that these non-believers had was of no help for them since they lacked knowledge about the righteousness of God. Therefore their motives were dark and their zealous works were filthy rags, dead works bearing fruit unto death. All this rooted in the fact that they denied the Lord Jesus Christ as being the Messiah. Nothing of such behavior indicates anything else than lostness, and if died in such state eternal lostness.

 

[clittle]

Phil 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

The Philippians obeyed...God works in those that obey Him.

he also chastens those he loves
if you are without chastisement you are not a son
chastisement is for the disobedient son.

we are not ever in this life perfect or perfectly obedient, however by grace through faith we are sons

 

[forsha]

You see that is my problem.

How do you know that is the correct interpretation when the Greek does not read:

"the faith of Jesus Christ," but instead reads:

"faith Jesus Christ"?


"The man without the Spirit" would be the unregenerate man, the man who is not born again.

While the "carnal" man, would be the man living according to the flesh (old nature)
rather than the Spirit (Ro 8:13).
Paul addresses these to live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Gal 5:16-17)

Gal 5:16-17, Paul is addressing the members of the church at Galatia which have been born again, not the carnal man void of the Spirit.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Gal 5:16-17, Paul is addressing the members of the church at Galatia which have been born again, not the carnal man void of the Spirit.

How do you know they were born again?
And Paul clearly tells them in this passage they have to walk in the Spirit and not in flesh as they have been doing.
Then Paul takes and gives a list in Gal. 5:19-21 following and says those who walk in the flesh as such will not inherit the kingdom of God (salvation/eternal life). Then in 5:22-23 he says what the fruits of the Spirit are, and those who are in Christ have did away (crucified) those lusts of the flesh (24).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How do you know they were born again?
And Paul clearly tells them in this passage they have to walk in the Spirit and not in flesh as they have been doing.
Then Paul takes and gives a list in Gal. 5:19-21 following and says those who walk in the flesh as such will not inherit the kingdom of God (salvation/eternal life). Then in 5:22-23 he says what the fruits of the Spirit are, and those who are in Christ have did away (crucified) those lusts of the flesh (24).

no one walks in the spirit 24/7, thus you would lose your salvation how many times a day?

do you really want to make God out to be that kind of father? lets get real Ken.

 

[forsha]

This is a quiet extreme view. What leads you to conclude that the context and the aim of Paul's address in Rom.10 is about nothing else than timely salvation?

Paul spoke to the brethren of faith regarding those jews who still were not in the faith, thus they were still lost, not saved. Nothing in the text or its context implies that Paul meant that their lostness was merely regarding temporal, timely matters. To conclude that these lost men, at that point were "eternally saved" seems like nothing but a far-fetched and presumptuous way of reading your own (or someone else's) pre-conceived ideas into the text. Of course there is a possibility that these lost men were of the elect and later would come to faith. However, they were at that time he spoke this at least not regenerate, and therefore not also justified. All those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel, are lost. Not saved. Paul prayed for these non-believers that they might be saved. In context it deals with the issue of righteousness which is definitely connected to "eternal salvation". He rebuked their self-righteousness just for what it was indicating: lostness. If they died in such state they would not be "eternally saved".

Go ahead and list all the scriptures. The means are conversion, faith in Christ and baptism and also communion. These are means for the elect to both receive God's salvation and/or have assurance of same.

Let's just take a look at Rom.10 finally:The zeal that these non-believers had was of no help for them since they lacked knowledge about the righteousness of God. Therefore their motives were dark and their zealous works were filthy rags, dead works bearing fruit unto death. All this rooted in the fact that they denied the Lord Jesus Christ as being the Messiah. Nothing of such behavior indicates anything else than lostness, and if died in such state eternal lostness.

So in 1 Cor 2:14 in relationship to Rom 10:2, you are saying that the carnal man, void of the Spirit has a zeal of God even when he can not discern spiritual things. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, (delivered) timely, not eternal. The carnal man, unless he has been born again of the Spirit will not, and, indeed, can not discern spiritual things to believe. Luke 7:50, And he said to the woman, thy faith hath saved (delivered) thee. go in peace. The carnal person void of the Spirit can not discern spiritual things such as having faith until they are born of the Spirit. Luke 18:42, timely salvation. Acts 2:21, timely salvation, Act 2:47, timely salvation, 1 Cor 15:2, timely salvation. Rom 1:16, timely salvation-hearing the gospel delivers you but not eternally. Hearing the gospel is evidence that you have been born of the Spirit already. Yes, there are more, do you care to hear of them?

 

[forsha]

This is a quiet extreme view. What leads you to conclude that the context and the aim of Paul's address in Rom.10 is about nothing else than timely salvation?

Paul spoke to the brethren of faith regarding those jews who still were not in the faith, thus they were still lost, not saved. Nothing in the text or its context implies that Paul meant that their lostness was merely regarding temporal, timely matters. To conclude that these lost men, at that point were "eternally saved" seems like nothing but a far-fetched and presumptuous way of reading your own (or someone else's) pre-conceived ideas into the text. Of course there is a possibility that these lost men were of the elect and later would come to faith. However, they were at that time he spoke this at least not regenerate, and therefore not also justified. All those who are ignorant about the righteousness of God, which is revealed in the gospel, are lost. Not saved. Paul prayed for these non-believers that they might be saved. In context it deals with the issue of righteousness which is definitely connected to "eternal salvation". He rebuked their self-righteousness just for what it was indicating: lostness. If they died in such state they would not be "eternally saved".

Go ahead and list all the scriptures. The means are conversion, faith in Christ and baptism and also communion. These are means for the elect to both receive God's salvation and/or have assurance of same.

Let's just take a look at Rom.10 finally:The zeal that these non-believers had was of no help for them since they lacked knowledge about the righteousness of God. Therefore their motives were dark and their zealous works were filthy rags, dead works bearing fruit unto death. All this rooted in the fact that they denied the Lord Jesus Christ as being the Messiah. Nothing of such behavior indicates anything else than lostness, and if died in such state eternal lostness.

By your remarks here it seems that you are a believer of eternal salvation by good works. Is that so?

 

[forsha]

How do you know they were born again?
And Paul clearly tells them in this passage they have to walk in the Spirit and not in flesh as they have been doing.
Then Paul takes and gives a list in Gal. 5:19-21 following and says those who walk in the flesh as such will not inherit the kingdom of God (salvation/eternal life). Then in 5:22-23 he says what the fruits of the Spirit are, and those who are in Christ have did away (crucified) those lusts of the flesh (24).

If they were carnal men, void of the Spirit they would not be members of the Galatia church due to the fact that they cannot discern spiritual things. Remember in one of my posts that I told you of several names that the church that Jesus set up is called and one of them is "the kingdom of God". If you are trying to tell me that you walk in the Spirit all of the time, and never sin, I seriously doubt that because I think that Jesus is the only one that does not sin. How many times in the scriptures does it say "deny yourselves", sounds like you are not doing that.

 

[tribesman]

By your remarks here it seems that you are a believer of eternal salvation by good works. Is that so?

Absolutely not. You do NOT understand what I am trying to get across to you, being so steeped into your own tradition and its erroneous thinking about these issues. Instead of discussing the points I made you come with a subtle accusation. Sadly this was also how it turned out when discussing with you before when you used your former username forest. Same story now repeats. It is typical of all eternal justification advocates or hyper-calvinists to accuse those who point out the scriptural facts that salvation comes to us by the means God have ordained for same for holding to conditionalism or salvation by works. It is a false accusation proving the unsound spiritual condition these souls are in. An expression of the antinomianism they have gotten into their package.

 

[forsha]

Absolutely not. You do NOT understand what I am trying to get across to you, being so steeped into your own tradition and its erroneous thinking about these issues. Instead of discussing the points I made you come with a subtle accusation. Sadly this was also how it turned out when discussing with you before when you used your former username forest. Same story now repeats. It is typical of all eternal justification advocates or hyper-calvinists to accuse those who point out the scriptural facts that salvation comes to us by the means God have ordained for same for holding to conditionalism or salvation by works. It is a false accusation proving the unsound spiritual condition these souls are in. An expression of the antinomianism they have gotten into their package.

Tribesman, with all due respect, I did address your remarks as to why I believe these brethren in Rom 10 being born of the Spirit by calling your attention to 1 Cor 2:14 comparing the carnal man to the spiritual man by saying the carnal man, void of the Spirit would not have a zeal of God. Can you explain to me your explanation of this? While you are at it could you explain your views on John 6:39? Did Jesus eternally save every one that he died for, and will not lose none of them?