Working out our Salvation

[forsha]

You always use this same one verse. Whatever way you want to put it, the elect must yet first possess faith in order to possess justification, since they go hand in hand. Romans 5:1-11 says:

So where there is no faith, there is no justification. And if an elect person has not yet been regenerated, he is not yet justified, because he does not yet have faith. Faith and justification always go together. You never see one without the other.

The only faith that comes before our justification is Jesus's faith, not ours. We were justified on the cross. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and we did not have the Spirit until God put the Spirit within us and then we had access to that fruit of the Spirit. Give me some feed back on your explanation of justification after faith with scripture.

 

[Elin]

The only faith that comes before our justification is Jesus's faith, not ours. We were justified on the cross. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and we did not have the Spirit until God put the Spirit within us and then we had access to that fruit of the Spirit. Give me some feed back on your explanation of justification after faith with scripture.

Gal 2:16 in the Greek reads: "faith Jesus Christ".

Why do you add the article and translate it "the faith of Jesus Christ," rather than just "faith in Jesus Christ"?

Is there a corroborating NT verse which uses faith "of" Jesus Christ?

 

[AtonedFor]

Verse 13 continues, after a comma, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Ah, forget the commas, my boy, there are none in the Greek.

And don't take all of the words as gospel truth either (even the venerable KJV has some errors).
Because some Greek words can have up to 40 different meanings, depending on the context.
And dose King James boys weren't perfect in trying to follow the Spirit ... nah, far from it.
Dose boys were human boys!

Mucho better to have the Holy Spirit teach you the actual spiritual meaning in each verse and passage.

Also, it is God's good purpose to try to work in you, but you do have free will to resist,
if thou so desires and chooses to do so ... God didn't make no robots here, hear?

 

[forsha]

Gal 2:16 in the Greek reads: "faith Jesus Christ".

Why do you add the article and translate it "the faith of Jesus Christ," rather than just "faith in Jesus Christ"?

Is there a corroborating NT verse which uses faith "of" Jesus Christ?

I use the original King James version. In Gal 2:16 some versions have changed the little word "OF" to "IN" which takes faith away from Jesus and gives it to man. The wording in the original King James version reads as follows "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith (of) Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith (of) Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". When they change the OF to IN it makes man's faith justifying himself instead of Jesus's faith justifying man. There is a lot of God's children who believe that they earn eternal salvation by their good works instead of God eternally saving us by his grace without the help of man.

 

[mailmandan]

Ah, forget the commas, my boy, there are none in the Greek.

Comma or no comma, God went on to say, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." In Philippians 1:6, we read - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. It's not ALL about us.

And don't take all of the words as gospel truth either (even the venerable KJV has some errors).
Because some Greek words can have up to 40 different meanings, depending on the context.
And dose King James boys weren't perfect in trying to follow the Spirit ... nah, far from it.
Dose boys were human boys!

Who said anything about perfect King James boys? What is your point? According to you, do we work OUT our salvation or work FOR our salvation?

Mucho better to have the Holy Spirit teach you the actual spiritual meaning in each verse and passage.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Also, it is God's good purpose to try to work in you, but you do have free will to resist,
if thou so desires and chooses to do so ... God didn't make no robots here, hear?

I didn't see the word "try" in verse 13 - "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Should we change that to "for it is God who "tries" to work in you to will and to act according to his good purpose?

 

[tribesman]

The only faith that comes before our justification is Jesus's faith, not ours. We were justified on the cross. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and we did not have the Spirit until God put the Spirit within us and then we had access to that fruit of the Spirit. Give me some feed back on your explanation of justification after faith with scripture.

Well, there is no scripture that says that anyone is justified before they believe (in the true gospel of salvation conditioned solely on the antoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ). There is no time-lapse between regeneration and conversion. To say that justification occurred at the time of faith does NOT make the work of Christ depend upon the work of the sinner. Because there is a huge difference to have faith being a fruit of justification than to say it is the cause of justification. But for advocates of eternal justification there is no difference to them, hence they will accuse those who hold to the position of justification by faith at the time of regeneration of holding to a form of conditionalism/dependence at least, or even works based justification.

Your use of the word "of" in Gal.2 is a very weak argument for your position, seen in the entirety of scriptures dealing with the issue of justification. Justification is everywhere in scripture (also in Gal.2) said to be “by faith” (pistei [simple dative of means], ek pisteos, epi pistei, dia pisteos; Rom. 1:16; 3:22, 26, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; etc. These expressions indicates that faith is the instrumental, but not the meritorious, cause of justification. The meritorious cause of justification is the redemptive work of Christ. Faith is then a means, an instrumental cause. Justification is by grace through faith.

Paul emphasizes repeatedly that God justifies the believing sinner. “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ” (Rom. 3:22; cf. 4:11, 13; 10:6). “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness” (Rom. 4:3). He was not justified before God by his works, but righteousness was credited to him through the instrument of faith. “With the heart you believe and are justified” (Rom. 10:10). “Through him everyone who believes is justified” (Acts 13:39). “So we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ” (Gal. 2:16). Righteousness is imputed not by works but by faith (Rom. 4:5). In order to obtain righteousness one must forsake all self-righteousness and repent, turning in trust to Christ (Phil. 3:9-9).

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth believes that one can go in and out of salvation. That explains why he have it the way he have it with interpreting Paul's message to the galatians who got sidetracked.

No you are wrong with that as I don't believe salvation is physically in our possession right now, as the bible actually teaches it is a mental assurance that we will receive salvation by staying firm in the faith;


1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.




Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.




1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.




2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.




Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

 

[tribesman]

No you are wrong with that as I don't believe salvation is physically in our possession right now, as the bible actually teaches it is a mental assurance that we will receive salvation by staying firm in the faith;


1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.




Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.




1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.




2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.




Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

I can't see how I am wrong in that regard, seeing what you have posted here now and then. Anyway, the scriptures you gave are, with your view of same, not harmonizing but contradicting several other scriptures that WebersHome posted in the starting post of this thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/107795-world-christless-christians.html#post1892563

 

[Elin]

Gal 2:16 in the Greek reads: "faith Jesus Christ".

Why do you add the article "the" and translate it "the faith of Jesus Christ," rather than just "faith in Jesus Christ"?

Is there a corroborating NT verse which uses faith "of" Jesus Christ?

I use the original King James version.
In Gal 2:16 some versions have changed the little word "OF" to "IN"

But that's my problem--"of" is not in the Greek text.

which takes faith away from Jesus and gives it to man. The wording in the original King James version reads as follows "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith (of) Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith (of) Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified".

But my problem is that the word "the" is not in the Greek text.

When they change the OF to IN
it makes man's faith justifying himself instead of Jesus's faith justifying man. There is a lot of God's children who believe that they earn eternal salvation by their good works instead of God eternally saving us by his grace without the help of man.

But don't we have to have faith in Jesus Christ to be justified?

 

[forsha]

Well, there is no scripture that says that anyone is justified before they believe (in the true gospel of salvation conditioned solely on the antoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ). There is no time-lapse between regeneration and conversion. To say that justification occurred at the time of faith does NOT make the work of Christ depend upon the work of the sinner. Because there is a huge difference to have faith being a fruit of justification than to say it is the cause of justification. But for advocates of eternal justification there is no difference to them, hence they will accuse those who hold to the position of justification by faith at the time of regeneration of holding to a form of conditionalism/dependence at least, or even works based justification.

Your use of the word "of" in Gal.2 is a very weak argument for your position, seen in the entirety of scriptures dealing with the issue of justification. Justification is everywhere in scripture (also in Gal.2) said to be “by faith” (pistei [simple dative of means], ek pisteos, epi pistei, dia pisteos; Rom. 1:16; 3:22, 26, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; etc. These expressions indicates that faith is the instrumental, but not the meritorious, cause of justification. The meritorious cause of justification is the redemptive work of Christ. Faith is then a means, an instrumental cause. Justification is by grace through faith.

Paul emphasizes repeatedly that God justifies the believing sinner. “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ” (Rom. 3:22; cf. 4:11, 13; 10:6). “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness” (Rom. 4:3). He was not justified before God by his works, but righteousness was credited to him through the instrument of faith. “With the heart you believe and are justified” (Rom. 10:10). “Through him everyone who believes is justified” (Acts 13:39). “So we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ” (Gal. 2:16). Righteousness is imputed not by works but by faith (Rom. 4:5). In order to obtain righteousness one must forsake all self-righteousness and repent, turning in trust to Christ (Phil. 3:9-9).

In Gal 2:16 Christ's faith is what justifies us and that happened on the cross. Man, when he is regenerated believes that Christ has justified him. When man believes after he is regenerated does not negate the fact he was justified by Jesus's faithfulness in going to the cross. It's like those that believe man has to play a part in his eternal salvation, by their believing that does not negate the fact that Jesus secured their eternal salvation on the cross. Acts `13:39 And by him (Jesus) all that believe are (not will be) justified from all things. Rom 10:10 The scriptures surrounding the tenth verse are all talking about a timely salvation, so I don't see your referencing this scripture to justification. I am not sure that I understand your grouping righteousness with Justification. We are justified by Jesus's faithfulness to go to the cross, but we have no righteousness of our own, and only have the imputed righteousness of Jesus after we are regenerated. Did not Jesus's death make us just before God that he would not remember our sins no more and says that our sins are as far from as the east is from the west? Is not that justification accomplished on the cross?

 

[forsha]

But that's my problem--"of" is not in the Greek text.



But my problem is that the word "the" is not in the Greek text.



But don't we have to have faith in Jesus Christ to be justified?

That's why I stick with the King James version because it does not contradict scriptures. All of those that God gave to his Son to die for were eternally saved and justified on the cross. Just because we don't know what happened on the cross does not mean that it did in fact happen. We are justified in our minds when we are regenerated and believe by knowing that Jesus justified us on the cross.

 

[WebersHome]

-
A few years ago a Roman Catholic told me that he was working out his own
salvation with fear and trembling as per Php 2:12. I asked him how he was
doing. Was he close to finishing yet? He said that working out one's salvation
is a lifetime of working. So I asked him how much more lifetime he needed in
order to complete his quest. What if he were to die too soon? What then?

Roman Catholics live with a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads by
a slender thread that can be broken with just one unabsolved mortal sin.
That's all: just one. So that it's possible for a Roman Catholic's entire
lifetime of working out their salvation to be for naught because it only takes
one unabsolved mortal sin to send a Roman Catholic directly to hell with no
stopover in a purgatory. It's all the same as if they had been an atheist their
whole lives no matter how much work they had put into working out their own
salvation with fear and trembling.

Can you just imagine the cruel mockery that unabsolved Roman Catholics
have to endure in hell from unbelievers taunting them with remarks like:
"Hey Christian! Witness to us. Tell us about all about the sweet little baby
away in a manger." Awwwww-Haw-Haw-Haw-Haw-Haw!

======================================

 

[Elin]

But that's my problem--"of" is not in the Greek text.

My problem is that the word "the" is not in the Greek text.

Don't we have to have faith in Jesus Christ to be justified?

That's why I stick with the King James version because it does not contradict the scriptures.

Keeping in mind that NT Scripture is written in Greek, and the word the and of are not in the Greek text of Gal 2:16.

They have been added by the KJV translators, which deviates from the original Scriptures of Gal 2:16.

 

[ChristInUs]

Keeping in mind that NT Scripture is written in Greek, and the word the and of are not in the Greek text of Gal 2:16.

They have been added by the KJV translators, which deviates from the original Scriptures of Gal 2:16.

I was wondering can you produce or show original manuscripts? Or are you going by the textus receptus or the dead sea scrolls there are no original manuscripts. There are many ancient writings and they differ in wording. But, no one possesses an original manuscript from Moses or any of the prophets. This is why we have variations of the bible. Some transliterate from certain manuscripts while others use different manuscripts. Then at times the translation of word becomes a matter of opinion. Yet we do have the word of God as long as it portrays the theme of the cross.

 

[Elin]

I was wondering can you produce or show original manuscripts? Or are you going by the textus receptus or the dead sea scrolls there are no original manuscripts. There are many ancient writings and they differ in wording. But, no one possesses an original manuscript from Moses or any of the prophets. This is why we have variations of the bible. Some transliterate from certain manuscripts while others use different manuscripts. Then at times the translation of word becomes a matter of opinion. Yet we do have the word of God as long as it portrays the theme of the cross.

The KJV uses the TR, to which I am referring for the Greek.

The KJV deviates from the Greek text which it uses, which does not have the and of in Gal 2:16.

 

[Kaycie]

Everybody is responsible to obey God to the best of their ability and understanding. We need to get past milk and chew on the meat of the word. The struggle is in adjusting our habits to God's ways, and grow (effort). The fear and trembling is to fear disobeying God. If you have a careless attitude you will not hang on tight. If the possibility of harm sobers your mind you will hold fast- as if your life depends on it. You have to humble yourself like a child, otherwise your pride will be your downfall.

In an unserious way the movie men in black comes to mind- the scene where he is asked to put on his seatbelt, and instead of doing so, in the time he had to do so, he works on protecting his ego, and it's unexpectantly too late. Fear and trembling will cause you to examine your actions carefully. If you are on the ledge of a building, and are full of ego and pride, you may put performing for others as your first priority. But if you have fear and trembling you will cling to the wall and watch your steps carefully. We need to cling to God's word and watch what we say and do carefully. Why? Because it is possible to fall and die.

 

[AtonedFor]

I didn't see the word "try" in verse 13 - "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."
Should we change that to "for it is God who "tries" to work in you to will and to act according to his good purpose?

Yes, the word does say that God will succeed in bringing us to glory.

That's the amazing thing ...
since we all have free will to refuse, linger, procrastinate, die before being sanctified, etc.
Not only amazing grace, but just plain old amazing!

Especially since there are 100+ warnings that we must do such-and-so OR ELSE!

 

[BradC]

Everybody is responsible to obey God to the best of their ability and understanding. We need to get past milk and chew on the meat of the word. The struggle is in adjusting our habits to God's ways, and grow (effort). The fear and trembling is to fear disobeying God. If you have a careless attitude you will not hang on tight. If the possibility of harm sobers your mind you will hold fast- as if your life depends on it. You have to humble yourself like a child, otherwise your pride will be your downfall.

In an unserious way the movie men in black comes to mind- the scene where he is asked to put on his seatbelt, and instead of doing so, in the time he had to do so, he works on protecting his ego, and it's unexpectantly too late. Fear and trembling will cause you to examine your actions carefully. If you are on the ledge of a building, and are full of ego and pride, you may put performing for others as your first priority. But if you have fear and trembling you will cling to the wall and watch your steps carefully. We need to cling to God's word and watch what we say and do carefully. Why? Because it is possible to fall and die.

Psalm 37:23,24

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.

 

[tribesman]

In Gal 2:16 Christ's faith is what justifies us and that happened on the cross. Man, when he is regenerated believes that Christ has justified him. When man believes after he is regenerated does not negate the fact he was justified by Jesus's faithfulness in going to the cross. It's like those that believe man has to play a part in his eternal salvation, by their believing that does not negate the fact that Jesus secured their eternal salvation on the cross. Acts `13:39 And by him (Jesus) all that believe are (not will be) justified from all things. Rom 10:10 The scriptures surrounding the tenth verse are all talking about a timely salvation, so I don't see your referencing this scripture to justification. I am not sure that I understand your grouping righteousness with Justification. We are justified by Jesus's faithfulness to go to the cross, but we have no righteousness of our own, and only have the imputed righteousness of Jesus after we are regenerated. Did not Jesus's death make us just before God that he would not remember our sins no more and says that our sins are as far from as the east is from the west? Is not that justification accomplished on the cross?

I will have to draw a sketch here so it is clear to the readers what is actually being communicated between us. All that Christ did for our salvation was completed at the cross. However, scripture clearly shows that our justification is given us in time (not from eternity or at time of crucifixion) upon being regenerated and as a fruit believing in this finished work. Not before that. The way you want to have it is that what you call "eternal salvation" is something which is totally abstract and without any MEANS whatsoever. All scriptures regarding salvation in scripture you would say is only about timely salvation. In effect, with your view, one does need (or rather manifest the fruit of) believe in Christ, in the gospel, receive baptism or anything. It is good if one have any or all of these, but they do not mean anything as to our "eternal salvation". In fact one may even die in unbelief and yet be "eternally saved" with your view. Because to say that salvation comes by any MEANS for you would mean that it is conditional or dependent on or even a work of man. With this faulty logic you come to most weak conclusions like saying that if a person shows a "desire" to know God and to learn about "spiritual things" then that is evidence that this person can be elect or eternally saved. In an earlier post, under your old username forest, you suggested that Noah's mission was merely to have people saved from being drowned, however there was people who drowned in the flood who yet were "eternally saved". You also suggested that the non-believing jews, who Paul addressed in Rom.10 were eternally saved, because he called them "brethren". These are just some examples of the extreme and bizarre things your Primitive baptist tradition has led you to believe about salvation.

 

[forsha]

Keeping in mind that NT Scripture is written in Greek, and the word the and of are not in the Greek text of Gal 2:16.

They have been added by the KJV translators, which deviates from the original Scriptures of Gal 2:16.

If you are going to not use the words "OF" and "THE", and believe that it is your faith that justifies you, how do you explain the carnal man being restricted from discerning spiritual things in 1 Cor 2:14? can you make Gal 2:16 harmonize with 1 Cor 2:14? If it is "your faith" that justifies you, then eternal salvation is by works of man and not by the grace of God. That's letting man get the praise and honor instead of God.