Tired of the Big LIE

[dcontroversal]

Yes we all know God id this, but then what did God do to those who were saved out of Egypt and then turned their backs on God to unbelief and worshiping the false god idol calf ? Did He keep them saved, or did He destroy them ?

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Physical death does not equal eternal death nor does loosing ones inheritance....under the law people were put to physical death without mercy...does not mean they lost their salvation or went to hell!

 

[kennethcadwell]

I would agree they walked across on dry ground and did not get wet. The ones that got wet drowned and died just like in Noah's day. they were saved by wood (symbol of the cross) and the ones that got wet died. I will add that Moses held up his staff a symbol of the cross.

Yes it all plays a part in the symbolism of a saved born again believer, but I think the part that some overlook is that the water did the cleansing of the evil still. The righteous were saved by the water destroying the unrighteous. If God would not have separated the waters and then had them come back on the unrighteous Egyptians then the righteous would have been killed by the unrighteous.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Physical death does not equal eternal death nor does loosing ones inheritance....under the law people were put to physical death without mercy...does not mean they lost their salvation or went to hell!

So you think all those unbelievers who worshiped the calf that God destroyed for doing so still got salvation ?
Jude is clearly giving a warning about our salvation in this passage, as he says in 1:3 he is speaking of salvation and gives the following examples. The ones saved out of Egypt that went back to unbelief were destroyed, not saved unto salvation.

 

[kennethcadwell]

well yes He did except Joshua and Caleb.

What are you saying that Joshua and Caleb were the only ones who did keep their saved state, and what is your proof on that if that is what you believe ?

Remember Aaron made the calf for them, but he was not destroyed with others because he did not worship it.
Those who went back to unbelief and worshiped the golden calf instead of God was destroyed by Him.

 

[ChristInUs]

What are you saying that Joshua and Caleb were the only ones who did keep their saved state, and what is your proof on that if that is what you believe ?

Remember Aaron made the calf for them, but he was not destroyed with others because he did not worship it.
Those who went back to unbelief and worshiped the golden calf instead of God was destroyed by Him.

wait a minute Balaam prophesied that I see no perverseness in Israel nor any sin and the shout of a king is among them. This is after the calfs and the murmuring and complaining. The prophet said I cannot curse what God has blessed.

 

[3Scoreand10]

What are you saying that Joshua and Caleb were the only ones who did keep their saved state, and what is your proof on that if that is what you believe ?

Remember Aaron made the calf for them, but he was not destroyed with others because he did not worship it.
Those who went back to unbelief and worshiped the golden calf instead of God was destroyed by Him.

So Aaron did not sin when he made the calf ?

 

[kennethcadwell]

You have said many times that baptism is necessary for salvation and have many bible verses to try and prove your belief.
Where is your bible proof that the thief did not have to be baptised because of his circumstances?
Am I to believe it because you said it?
Where is you proof that baptism was not necessary for the thief?

Now we are into the what if games, as that goes nowhere because for starters the same can be said back.
That you can not prove he wasn't baptized. But if you take and use 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 to apply to all that came before in the symbolism of baptism before the new covenant was in place then it would apply to the thief. Plus there are other scriptures from the OT to the NT that water has always been a part of the sanctification process of a believer.
Here is just a few;

Exodus 19:10-11


And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.




Hebrews 9:18-20


Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.




Exodus 29:4


And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

 

[ChristInUs]

So Aaron did not sin when he made the calf ?

The doctrinal answer that most baptist will give you is this. He was not saved to begin with. But when it comes to the thief they say that he must have been baptized by John. Which contradicts water baptism, How can you be baptized and become a thief?

 

[3Scoreand10]

Now we are into the what if games, as that goes nowhere because for starters the same can be said back.
That you can not prove he wasn't baptized. But if you take and use 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 to apply to all that came before in the symbolism of baptism before the new covenant was in place then it would apply to the thief. Plus there are other scriptures from the OT to the NT that water has always been a part of the sanctification process of a believer.
Here is just a few;

Exodus 19:10-11


And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.




Hebrews 9:18-20


Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.




Exodus 29:4


And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

This it what if.
You are the one that said the thief did not have to be baptise because he was saved at the end of his life.
You also said those on their death bed did not have to be baptised.
I just asked you to quote a verse from the bible to prove it like you do with all your other statements.
WHERE IS THE PROOF IN THE BIBLE?

 

[kennethcadwell]

wait a minute Balaam prophesied that I see no perverseness in Israel nor any sin and the shout of a king is among them. This is after the calfs and the murmuring and complaining. The prophet said I cannot curse what God has blessed.

Book, chapter, and verse please?
And what does this have to do with the Exodus and those destroyed by God after going back to unbelief and idol worship?

So Aaron did not sin when he made the calf ?

Yes Aaron did sin by making the calf for them, but because he did not worship it he was not destroyed along with them.
Only those who worshiped the calf were destroyed, the others that stayed firm and true to God were not.....

 

[kennethcadwell]

This it what if.
You are the one that said the thief did not have to be baptise because he was saved at the end of his life.
You also said those on their death bed did not have to be baptised.
I just asked you to quote a verse from the bible to prove it like you do with all your other statements.
WHERE IS THE PROOF IN THE BIBLE?

Romans 9:15

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

[3Scoreand10]

The doctrinal answer that most baptist will give you is this. He was not saved to begin with. But when it comes to the thief they say that he must have been baptized by John. Which contradicts water baptism, How can you be baptized and become a thief?

No. Ken said those who worship the calf lost their salvation but Aaron did not even though he made it.
I Guess making the calf was a MISTAKE not a sin.

 

[Jeff_56]

The doctrinal answer that most baptist will give you is this. He was not saved to begin with. But when it comes to the thief they say that he must have been baptized by John. Which contradicts water baptism, How can you be baptized and become a thief?

over a billion people have been baptized on earth today, and are worse than a thief ? what's to prevent

someone from being baptized and afterwards sinning grievously ? (even not serving the one true

god at all, but idols and doctrines of demons )

 

[ChristInUs]

Book, chapter, and verse please?
And what does this have to do with the Exodus and those destroyed by God after going back to unbelief and idol worship?






Yes Aaron did sin by making the calf for them, but because he did not worship it he was not destroyed along with them.
Only those who worshiped the calf were destroyed, the others that stayed firm and true to God were not.....

Okay, I thought i was talking to someone who knew the bible my bad let get it for you.

Numbers 23: 21

21 He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No. Ken said those who worship the calf lost their salvation but Aaron did not even though he made it.
I Guess making the calf was a MISTAKE not a sin.

No the difference was the worshiping of it, and God only destroyed those who worshiped it.
Just because Aaron made it did not make him guilty of worshiping it as the others, yes he did sin by making it knowing the purpose for it. Which would be something he would need to repent of. The bible however does not say all were destroyed by God, only those who worshiped the calf.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Okay, I thought i was talking to someone who knew the bible my bad let get it for you.

Numbers 23: 21

21 He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

Ok, but like I said what does this have to do with the Exodus, as I went and read and this chapter is about Balak and Balaam. It has nothing to do with the worshiping of the golden calf, and rather those who were destroyed by God for worshiping it still kept salvation after being saved out of Egypt.

 

[Jeff_56]

unless you can show in scripture where the ark or the staff was any type of symbol of the execution stake ('cross' as you say) upon which the messiah son of god in the flesh was crucified,
i think that those ideas
are probably of pagan origin (heresy).

note that the 8 people were saved in the ark, not executed in it,

and perhaps a million, but none-the-less however many, were saved upon crossing the red sea, not executed by it.

on the execution stake, whether cross or living tree as scripture says, the messiah died; not was rescued.

I would agree they walked across on dry ground and did not get wet. The ones that got wet drowned and died just like in Noah's day. they were saved by wood (symbol of the cross) and the ones that got wet died. I will add that Moses held up his staff a symbol of the cross.

 

[popeye]

For the record....I am tired of the fact that people who teach you can loose your salvation continually spread concerning people who believe in the security of the believer....

We believe that once a person trusts into the saving faith of Christ they are saved, sealed and justified forever.

It is the spirit that is born of God, does not sin, is eternally secure in the perfect faith of JESUS

WE do not teach that this is license to sin beyond degree or live anyway we want<--this is the LIE that is spread by those who teach you can loose your salvation.

The bible teaches clearly that EVERYONE sins and that is why JOHN writes....IF WE CONFESS our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins<--NO WHERE does he say that you are reborn because you lost it.

The bible teaches that if we say that we have NO SIN (PRESENT TENSE) the truth is NOT IN US AND WE ARE DECIEVED.

I AM TIRED of PEOPLE MISREPRESENTING the TRUTH and APPLYING THINGS AND SAYINGS to US that we do not teach and or PROMOTE.....

There is no debate here.

Salvation is covenant
salvation is acceptance/restoration into the family of heaven. We now are God's property,but at the same time God's family.
salvation is not a mere concept. Salvation is a person,Jesus.

Salvation can indeed be "lost". This is demonstrated in the prodigal story. We see the FAMILY MEMBER had a choice to stay or leave.

Your question should be,"once someone is saved,born again,and tasted of the goodness and peace of God,and the fellowship with the Son and the HS,why would they foolishly defect to the devil?

The good news you should preach is, the prodigal can come back.
OSAS is a rabbit trail

 

[kennethcadwell]

Exodus 32:33

And the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot out him out of My book."

 

[ChristInUs]

Ok, but like I said what does this have to do with the Exodus, as I went and read and this chapter is about Balak and Balaam. It has nothing to do with the worshiping of the golden calf, and rather those who were destroyed by God for worshiping it still kept salvation after being saved out of Egypt.

You can't see that even though they worshipped the golden calf that God said through the prophet I find no sin nor perverseness in Israel?