What will become of "fake Christians?"

[JFSurvivor]

Romans 1:21-32

1 Corinthians 5

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

1 Timothy 1:3-11

James 2:14-24

Matthew 7:15-23

So these verses are all about "fake Christians". You know those Christians that are like, "I love Jesus" then they go off and do whatever they want. Or the Christians that think they are doing everything right when clearly they are not like for example they don't read their Bible...ever.

Are these people completely lost? Is there any hope for them? Also how should we witness to them? And lastly how to we "take the plank out of our own eye" before doing so? I feel like that would be a necessary step so that we don't end up like the Pharisees.

Anyways, other Bible verses on this topic are also appreciated as well as comments or thoughts on any or all of the above verses!

Thanks so much!

 

[sveinen]

"lifting of heavens from down below."

 

[Willie-T]

Romans 1:21-32

1 Corinthians 5

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

1 Timothy 1:3-11

James 2:14-24

Matthew 7:15-23

So these verses are all about "fake Christians". You know those Christians that are like, "I love Jesus" then they go off and do whatever they want. Or the Christians that think they are doing everything right when clearly they are not like for example they don't read their Bible...ever.

Are these people completely lost? Is there any hope for them? Also how should we witness to them? And lastly how to we "take the plank out of our own eye" before doing so? I feel like that would be a necessary step so that we don't end up like the Pharisees.

Anyways, other Bible verses on this topic are also appreciated as well as comments or thoughts on any or all of the above verses!

Thanks so much!

Why are you calling them..... "them?"

 

[sveinen]

alright, me and willie at you might not be much fun, girl
please excuse us.
anyhow. i think you know it's LOVE ALIVE. not "flipping pages."
THE CROSS

 

[Jeff_56]

maybe then call them "they" ? as in "they" will all iikewise perish unless "they" repent...... so true....

yetw
ith
ya
shua praying that they do repent.......

 

[andypro]

I'm a big 'Preach the Law' guy, Ray Comfort style.

Go through some of the Ten Commandments and ask them if they sin. Most will say, 'yea, everyone sins a little'.

For one who proclaims to be a Christian, the next question should be, "How do you deal with your sin?"

Does it bother them? Do they go to God and repent and confess? Do they feel sorrow for their sin? If these things are true of them, then they're probably relatively ok, or at least on their way.

However, if you challenge them and none of these things are true, then it's very possible that they do not have the Holy Spirit (since that's His job). And if they don't have the Spirit of God within, then they are not Christians.

Leave them with 2 Cor 13:5

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test.

 

[Starcrash]

Also how should we witness to them?

I think this is a great question. I'm personally an atheist, and no Christian ever wonders, "what do I have to do to save him"? The answer is evidence, not scripture (as if I don't know what you believe), but at least scripture makes some limited sense. What do you say to someone who already thinks he or she is a Christian? "Get saved"? Not gonna work.

There are a couple of problems here, though. The first is more obvious, that they are probably using the bible to justify their own version of salvation. You point to certain verses, and they point to their own. What are we to make of someone who believes that following the commandments and giving all of their possessions to the poor will bring salvation? After all, this was Jesus' own answer to how to obtain eternal life. Whatever citation you provide, it's not likely to be as authoritative as quoting Jesus. You can't tell such a person that "the bible says how to become saved", because they're already using that standard.

Second, and less obvious, is this: how do you know that such a person is a "fake Christian"? You claim that they say "I love Jesus" and then go off and do whatever they want, but there's no logical reason that a "real" Christian can't do that; salvation is (from your point-of-view) based on belief, not acts. One doesn't "ever" have to read one's bible to be saved. (Note: this includes a bit of hindsight bias on your part. Before the advent of the printing press, I guarantee that the vast majority of Christians were both too illiterate and found it too difficult to obtain a bible to read one). So how can you really know that the person you're trying to convert is "fake"? In fact, how can you know that you're "real"? I'm willing to bet that most (if not all) "fake" Christians are unaware of being "fake".

 

[Starcrash]

I'm a big 'Preach the Law' guy, Ray Comfort style.

Go through some of the Ten Commandments and ask them if they sin. Most will say, 'yea, everyone sins a little'.

For one who proclaims to be a Christian, the next question should be, "How do you deal with your sin?"

Does it bother them? Do they go to God and repent and confess? Do they feel sorrow for their sin? If these things are true of them, then they're probably relatively ok, or at least on their way.

However, if you challenge them and none of these things are true, then it's very possible that they do not have the Holy Spirit (since that's His job). And if they don't have the Spirit of God within, then they are not Christians.

Leave them with 2 Cor 13:5

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test.

Why would this identify "fake" Christians? One does not need to repent or confess sins to be saved -- salvation is from belief, not acts. Nor does it necessarily make one saved if they do repent. Muslims believe in repentance, as well as believing in the Ten Commandments (Muslims also follow the OT). But you don't think that they're saved, do you?

 

[Reborn]

I think this is a great question. I'm personally an atheist, and no Christian ever wonders, "what do I have to do to save him"? The answer is evidence, not scripture (as if I don't know what you believe), but at least scripture makes some limited sense. What do you say to someone who already thinks he or she is a Christian? "Get saved"? Not gonna work.

You enjoy the teachings of Christ though, right?
That's why you are here?
I agree, they are wonderful.

BTW, the person/OP never really chimes in.
I don't blame her,.... most start threads and 'sift' through the responses until they find an answer they like, or was 'hoping" to fit what they first thought, OR want to eventually/personally believe.

We are all guilty of doing this.

 

[andypro]

One does not need to repent or confess sins to be saved

It appears that you were referring to specific subset of people within the Christian community - 'fake' Christians.

My answer (shortened) was for those specific people. Adding anything about Muslims is irrelevant to your original post, as the verses you cited don't pertain to them - nor do I believe that's where you were going initially.

To those who believe incorrectly that they are genuine Christians, they theoretically should be much more open to what the Bible says. They think they have it right, and you would need to show them that they don't. As far as the repentance is concerned, the key there is the sorrow, along with the action.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Why are you calling them..... "them?"

I'm pretty sure JFsurvivor sees herself, rightly, as not fake. For that matter, I know I'm not fake, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't ever fall into the "fake" trap, and reasonably certain a great many people, most, in fact, on this board, would not venture near the demarcation line of "fake."

But you make a good point, Willie, in that those who constantly warn others they aren't in the faith, or they've "lost their salvation" would never, ever see themselves in the same light. Interesting huh?

 

[andypro]

I'm personally an atheist, and no Christian ever wonders, "what do I have to do to save him"? The answer is evidence, not scripture (as if I don't know what you believe)

That's funny. If you think that the answer is evidence, then you don't know what I believe (and what Christianity teaches)

 

[Starcrash]

You enjoy the teachings of Christ though, right?
That's why you are here?
I agree, they are wonderful.

BTW, the person/OP never really chimes in.
I don't blame her,.... most start threads and 'sift' through the responses until they find an answer they like, or was 'hoping" to fit what they first thought, OR want to eventually/personally believe.

We are all guilty of doing this.

I like your tone here. It makes for an entertaining read.

I'm here because most of you are extremely easy to argue against. You'd be better if you got more practice and educated yourselves in reason, but many churches treat "reason" like it's the enemy of Christianity and so they don't learn about it. Almost any topic about Christianity is something I've given deep thought, and I keep meeting people who have barely given the bible any more thought that what they've heard from a Sunday morning sermon.

This isn't to imply that you're among them. You may be, but I can see enough here to infer that you're probably not.

 

[JFSurvivor]

I think this is a great question. I'm personally an atheist, and no Christian ever wonders, "what do I have to do to save him"? The answer is evidence, not scripture (as if I don't know what you believe), but at least scripture makes some limited sense. What do you say to someone who already thinks he or she is a Christian? "Get saved"? Not gonna work.

There are a couple of problems here, though. The first is more obvious, that they are probably using the bible to justify their own version of salvation. You point to certain verses, and they point to their own. What are we to make of someone who believes that following the commandments and giving all of their possessions to the poor will bring salvation? After all, this was Jesus' own answer to how to obtain eternal life. Whatever citation you provide, it's not likely to be as authoritative as quoting Jesus. You can't tell such a person that "the bible says how to become saved", because they're already using that standard.

Second, and less obvious, is this: how do you know that such a person is a "fake Christian"? You claim that they say "I love Jesus" and then go off and do whatever they want, but there's no logical reason that a "real" Christian can't do that; salvation is (from your point-of-view) based on belief, not acts. One doesn't "ever" have to read one's bible to be saved. (Note: this includes a bit of hindsight bias on your part. Before the advent of the printing press, I guarantee that the vast majority of Christians were both too illiterate and found it too difficult to obtain a bible to read one). So how can you really know that the person you're trying to convert is "fake"? In fact, how can you know that you're "real"? I'm willing to bet that most (if not all) "fake" Christians are unaware of being "fake".

You bring up some good points but remember, I am talking about literate people who know the basics of Christianity. The people who use Christianity and the church as more of a country club that to really change for the better.

How can I spot a fake? Well I'm sure you're right that they aren't aware that they are fake. That is why it is so hard to witness to them. That's why I posted this. lol As for telling who is and isn't a fake, that's something where you have to be careful. It's something that you just gotta pray on and ask God about.

As for your other question, am I a real Christian? Oh how I would love to say yes to that but unfortunately I can't, at least not right at this moment. God is currently doing some open heart surgery on me and healing some very hurt places in my life that left me very bitter. So am I a "real" Christian? My answer is: I am on my way.

....I think I'm gonna need to post my testimony just so that my posts make sense....

 

[Starcrash]

That's funny. If you think that the answer is evidence, then you don't know what I believe (and what Christianity teaches)

I'm fully aware of what Christianity teaches. I spent the first 20 years of my life in a Christian family as a Christian, before I even considered that I might be wrong all along. Once you open your mind to the possibility, it's so easy to see why Christianity is just like the other religions. They all seem so consistent with the world from the inside, but they all appeal to the same varieties of evidence.

I am rarely presented with evidence, though. I typically hear scripture. Sometimes I quote the Qur'an or the Vishnas hoping that the Christian will take the hint, that their bible is as useless for me as the holy books of Islam and Buddhism are to them, but they rarely do.

 

[mikeuk]

I think this is a great question. I'm personally an atheist, and no Christian ever wonders, "what do I have to do to save him"? The answer is evidence, not scripture (as if I don't know what you believe), but at least scripture makes some limited sense. What do you say to someone who already thinks he or she is a Christian? "Get saved"? Not gonna work.

There are a couple of problems here, though. The first is more obvious, that they are probably using the bible to justify their own version of salvation. You point to certain verses, and they point to their own. What are we to make of someone who believes that following the commandments and giving all of their possessions to the poor will bring salvation? After all, this was Jesus' own answer to how to obtain eternal life. Whatever citation you provide, it's not likely to be as authoritative as quoting Jesus. You can't tell such a person that "the bible says how to become saved", because they're already using that standard.

Second, and less obvious, is this: how do you know that such a person is a "fake Christian"? You claim that they say "I love Jesus" and then go off and do whatever they want, but there's no logical reason that a "real" Christian can't do that; salvation is (from your point-of-view) based on belief, not acts. One doesn't "ever" have to read one's bible to be saved. (Note: this includes a bit of hindsight bias on your part. Before the advent of the printing press, I guarantee that the vast majority of Christians were both too illiterate and found it too difficult to obtain a bible to read one). So how can you really know that the person you're trying to convert is "fake"? In fact, how can you know that you're "real"? I'm willing to bet that most (if not all) "fake" Christians are unaware of being "fake".

I am fascinated by your post and observations, not least because I ask "as an atheist why are you here?"

Your observations are spot on, before the printing press the bible was certainly only the preserve of scholars and readings as part of liturgy, so much of the faith was word of mouth and tradition, inevitable so before the new testament canon. Also that the "false christian" mantra is hurled on this forum daily by many at others, so the fact of it being hurled means nothing!

Sorry if this hijacks the thread, but as an atheist let me ask you a question.

If you accept that roman persecution was real, from roman documentation let alone the gospels and acts, so how do you justify that the very first christians as apostles and disciples were willing to go to very gory and painful deaths some of which are described. There are only a couple of possibilities , either they witnessed the ressurected christ and were satisfied he was what he said, or there was a conversation/ conspiracy between them after the crucifixion that said:

"hey guys, jesus is gone, but how about we keep this jesus messianic myth alive by saying we saw him resurrected, to keep the cult going"

Can you really imagine any single one of them keeping up with that story, when told - unless you recant it now , you will /crucified/ stoned / be eaten live by hungry lions/be burnt alive (let us not go into gory details!). Not a chance.
A game is a game for a while, but not a single person will take that to the extreme of dying for it, if they are the ones who claim to have witnessed, and know it is not true! You can level that accusation at second generation believers perhaps built on ever tall stories, you cannot level it at the first. It would not stack up.

On your wider point. I am an (ex) scientist. So what do you mean by "evidence", and who would need to validate it for you to be convinced. I am curious

 

[Sirk]

The prayers of a righteous person covers a multitude of sins.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I'm fully aware of what Christianity teaches. I spent the first 20 years of my life in a Christian family as a Christian, before I even considered that I might be wrong all along.

Please take no offense at what I say here, but a Christian, one who truly knows Jesus Christ, will never reach such a conclusion. You were not a believer simply because you grew up in a Christian home, went to church, even read the Bible. No more than standing in the garage makes you a car.

Once you open your mind to the possibility, it's so easy to see why Christianity is just like the other religions. They all seem so consistent with the world from the inside, but they all appeal to the same varieties of evidence.

No other faith teaches man must be reached by God. They all teach that man is capable of reaching godlike levels of behavior. The latter is a lie. No mere religion teaches that God will live within you, to lead, teach, and guide you. Those religions teach that we have godlike qualities within us already, we just don't know how to access them. This, also, is a lie.

I am rarely presented with evidence, though.

Nor will you be. There is no "evidence" like that of a murder, or the fact of gravity, that we can give you. Faith is the evidence you need. You have none. You won't have any, unless you seek it, and to seek it, you must seek God.

I typically hear scripture. Sometimes I quote the Qur'an or the Vishnas hoping that the Christian will take the hint, that their bible is as useless for me as the holy books of Islam and Buddhism are to them, but they rarely do.

Truth is spiritually discerned. Without the Spirit within you, you will have no discernment.

However, that doesn't preclude you from responding to the drawing and calling of the Holy Spirit, reading what you see here, listening to people around you, who know Him and will be used by the Holy Spirit to reveal God's truth to you. But you must have an open mind, and open spirit. From your words here, you are as closed as a time-lock safe at Chase Manhattan, and refuse to use the key to open yourself up.

Sorry for the awful truth. May God reveal Himself to you.

 

[Reborn]

I like your tone here. It makes for an entertaining read.

I'm here because most of you are extremely easy to argue against. You'd be better if you got more practice and educated yourselves in reason, but many churches treat "reason" like it's the enemy of Christianity and so they don't learn about it. Almost any topic about Christianity is something I've given deep thought, and I keep meeting people who have barely given the bible any more thought that what they've heard from a Sunday morning sermon.

This isn't to imply that you're among them. You may be, but I can see enough here to infer that you're probably not.

Slick.
That "kind" bashing of our faith.
Well, I'm sorry you feel as though "we are easy to debate".
I don't waste time debating atheists.
Not that it isn't worth it, it's just most atheists on CC, are set that "Christianity is wrong"
Why waste my time?

I just do not get why you all come to a Christian forum, and bash it?
Why waste YOUR time?
I do not go on Star Wars forums and say that Luke Skywalker is a joke.
They enjoy it...so I let them be.

I am at peace.
I feel no need to debate past 4 posts, nor do I have an obsessive need to have all or anyone agree with me.
Of course, that would be nice,...... but I am a realist....and I know that this will not always happen.

The Lord saves, I do not.
I'm not saying others are "wrong" or I am "right"..... it is what it is.

I mentioned most start conversations/threads, and never take time to engage with those who have set aside time to respond. (I was guilty of this, although now, I never starts threads because I caught myself doing that.)
DCon is awesome at replying to those who respond to his threads,... he may not agree, but he gives them the respect because they took time to answer.
This is cool.
Otherwise, most who start threads, tend to come off like I stated in my last note.

Good luck on whatever mission it is that you are on CC for.
Heads up though, if you keep questioning why we follow Christ, you will get squashed by others here.

I mean...IT IS a Christian site and all.

 

[Starcrash]

I am fascinated by your post and observations, not least because I ask "as an atheist why are you here?"

Your observations are spot on, before the printing press the bible was certainly only the preserve of scholars and readings as part of liturgy, so much of the faith was word of mouth and tradition, inevitable so before the new testament canon. Also that the "false christian" mantra is hurled on this forum daily by many at others, so the fact of it being hurled means nothing!

Sorry if this hijacks the thread, but as an atheist let me ask you a question.

If you accept that roman persecution was real, from roman documentation let alone the gospels and acts, so how do you justify that the very first christians as apostles and disciples were willing to go to very gory and painful deaths some of which are described. There are only a couple of possibilities , either they witnessed the ressurected christ and were satisfied he was what he said, or there was a conversation/ conspiracy between them after the crucifixion that said:

"hey guys, jesus is gone, but how about we keep this jesus messianic myth alive by saying we saw him resurrected, to keep the cult going"

Can you really imagine any single one of them keeping up with that story, when told - unless you recant it now , you will /crucified/ stoned / be eaten live by hungry lions/be burnt alive (let us not go into gory details!). Not a chance.
A game is a game for a while, but not a single person will take that to the extreme of dying for it, if they are the ones who claim to have witnessed, and know it is not true! You can level that accusation at second generation believers perhaps built on ever tall stories, you cannot level it at the first. It would not stack up.

On your wider point. I am an (ex) scientist. So what do you mean by "evidence", and who would need to validate it for you to be convinced. I am curious

To answer the first question, I stated it above in a response to Reborn: to argue. I like debate, and nothing makes me better at it like practice. I'm well-versed in the bible, and religion is something that I spend a lot of time thinking about. I used to visit atheist forums and found plenty of irrational atheists to argue against, but my bias makes such a practice painful. I'd rather argue with irrational theists, because their irrationality doesn't cause me any cognitive dissonance. Still, it would be nice to meet people who understand reason better. Occasionally I do, but rational people are as sparse on a Christian forum as they are on an atheist forum.

So: what do I think about Christians willing to go to gory deaths? Nothing, really. Even if you grant the bible truth, you'll see that the prophets of Baal would cut themselves for the sake of their belief (in their challenge against Elijah on Mount Carmel). Martyrs aren't specific to Christianity, nor are they particularly rare. The apostles clearly believed 'til their death, but no amount of belief makes something that's false become true.

Evidence would come in the form of "here's how Christianity better accounts for the things we observe than Atheism does". For example, if Christians really spoke to God, debates over what a piece of scripture really means would be quick and easy. Every Christian would simply pray, God would correct those who were wrong, and there would be an instant consensus. What we see instead are people arguing the same way that they would in a political debate, or a philosophical debate, or any argument which depends largely on personal interpretation. These debates aren't any different than those I saw in atheist forums, and I promise they're the same in Muslim forums. If this part of the Christian hypothesis were true, then Christian forums would differ from all the others that don't have a "divine moderator". An atheistic interpretation makes better sense, in which all forums act alike because they don't have such a variable as a real god.