A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?
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I've also read that it is noteworthy that Jesus spoke of the ekklesia, rather than the synagogue. But the ekklesia was the assembly of Israel, like at Mt. Sinai, as well. The word was used in the LXX translation of the people of Israel assembled.
But I don't really agree with the premise of your argument. I think are way to quick to say "X existed in 1st century culture, and therefore we don't have to believe or follow the apostles." Take the Diana priestesses at Ephesus. If Ephesus had Diana priestesses, why should that mean that Paul's teaching on women don't apply? Paul appealed to the creation in Genesis and didn't even mention pagan cults in that passage. I neglected to mention this in response to Angela's post earlier.
But I don't really agree with the premise of your argument. I think are way to quick to say "X existed in 1st century culture, and therefore we don't have to believe or follow the apostles." Take the Diana priestesses at Ephesus. If Ephesus had Diana priestesses, why should that mean that Paul's teaching on women don't apply? Paul appealed to the creation in Genesis and didn't even mention pagan cults in that passage. I neglected to mention this in response to Angela's post earlier.
Why does that bother you? Did you put a lot of effort into it? I'm trying to stick to the topic, not discuss Greek for Greek's sake.
So let's say you are write and Paul was telling women not to teach or domineer over men, and then a few verses later, he says that the bishop is to be a man. So the bishop is to be a man. There we have it.
Of course the elders of the church are called 'bishops' in Acts 20:28. The Titus passage about the requirements for bishop use elders and bishop interchangeably.
And the Reformed movement renamed elders as 'pastors' for us. It also renamed the Geneva city government officials as 'elders' which is where we get the non-pastoral board elder.
So let's say you are write and Paul was telling women not to teach or domineer over men, and then a few verses later, he says that the bishop is to be a man. So the bishop is to be a man. There we have it.
Of course the elders of the church are called 'bishops' in Acts 20:28. The Titus passage about the requirements for bishop use elders and bishop interchangeably.
And the Reformed movement renamed elders as 'pastors' for us. It also renamed the Geneva city government officials as 'elders' which is where we get the non-pastoral board elder.
To say that the "law" Paul spoke of in 1Cor.14:34 is not the law of God, but merely the local law of Corinth (as is if that could have any bearing on the general statements Paul made about church governance) is headless. Nowhere in church history have I noticed such a way to interpret that text. I guess it's the modern day relative ethics teachers who wish to have their own ideas pressed into the text to come up with such. Again these scriptures however does not imply any prohibition for women to speak, it is all about the order of the church and how it is to be governed.
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Dunno if what you typed in bold was a typo or not, but certainly true you show to have problems with discussing any issues where you have people disagreeing with you. And you talk about seriosity. When where you serious in this thread? Just ranting about in hysteria. All I see from you is throwing pies. Like a child: i am right because I say so and you are wrong. That's all to gather from your posts.
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Do you think posts who want to stir up an opinion against a user who happens not to agree with ones views are appropriate? Are we not to have a reason to speak out against users who are merely trolling in the thread and bullying those who don't agree with them? If anyone is serious he keeps on to the topic. That's what it comes down to. If those in favor of female clergy has run out of arguments and just want to go on with the pie throwing, then isn't the thread off?
Tribesman,
I think you can tell from my other posts that I don't think that. However I am sure that people will sometimes misunderstand another's intention and take something in a way in which it was not intended. Kaylagrl is a friend and what she has written here is based on an honest misunderstanding. I told her so myself. If you follow her on other threads you will see that she would not purposefully malign anyone.
I think you can tell from my other posts that I don't think that. However I am sure that people will sometimes misunderstand another's intention and take something in a way in which it was not intended. Kaylagrl is a friend and what she has written here is based on an honest misunderstanding. I told her so myself. If you follow her on other threads you will see that she would not purposefully malign anyone.
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So time to look at the overseer/deacon/bishop passage in 1 Timothy 3 in depth in the Greek. I've been avoiding it because I am in a lot of pain. Really, it takes concentration to look through all the lexicons/Greek tools etc.!! I had a good idea what needed to be said but I like to back up my thoughts with actual Scripture, esp. in the Greek.
"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, " 1 Tim. 3:1-2 ESV
"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]δεῖ οὖν τὸν ἐπίσκοπον ἀνεπίλημπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον, φιλόξενον, διδακτικόν," 1 Tim. 3:1-2 Greek
Paul notes in verse one that aspiring to be an overseer is a noble task. The word "HE" does not appear in the Greek in verse 1, but rather the verb ὀρέγεται (oregetai) which is in the present, indicative middle, 3rd person singular, meaning to stretch oneself out, to aspire, to desire; and the verb ἐπιθυμεῖ (epithumei) present indicative active, 3rd person singular, meaning "to set one's heart on, to desire."
Thus both male and female are included in this opening verse, not "he" as most translations add, simply because English needs a pronoun, which is understood in the Greek. Therefore, verse 1 could just as easily say, "The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, SHE desires a noble task."
Verse 1 of 1 Tim. 3 uses ἐπισκοπῆς (ephiskopase) a feminine verb meaning:
"Office of a bishop; engagement in oversight, supervision; leader of Christian community"
Verse 2, on the other hand uses ἐπίσκοπον (ephiskonon) a masculine verb meaning:
"overseer, bishop, pastor; one who watches over something or someone; guardian, supervisor, inspector.
For the early church fathers, the word denoted function, rather than the status of anyone who who exercised supervision or control.
Then Paul begins with the men who hold the office in the next verses. There are a lot of conditions that need to be met, especially in Ephesus, including being the husband of one wife. (Aner is used here! Meaning man or husband!)
Verses 8 to 10 really get into further qualifications for deacons.
"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless." 1 Tim. 3:8-10
Then using parallel instructions to the women deacons in verse 11, Paul turns to the women overseers! ESV, KJV and HCSB and other complimentarian versions translate the word γυναῖκας (guvaikas) as wives, whereas more egalitarian versions like NIV and the Message both translate this word as "women" or "deaconesses" in the USB interlinear.
However, in order to use the word "wives" the complimentarian versions, including KJV must add the word "their" which does not appear in any version of the Greek. To translate it properly using "wives" It would have to say "Wives, must likewise..."
This is somewhat like adding the word "authority" to 1 Tim. 2:12, when the word does not appear in the Greek.
By adding "their" to the mix, it implies that this is how the deacons' wives are to behave, rather than certain women who qualify for the office of deacon. Leaving it as "Wives" implies all wives in the church, and this section, I am sure everyone will agree, concerns deacons!
"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV
"γυναῖκας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσιν." 1 Tim. 3:11 Greek
"The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 RSV
"In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV
I love the way the Message puts it below, but I already hear people screaming that I even dared to use the NIV, even though it is a valid use of the word γυναῖκας! (Let alone the heretical paraphrase, The Message - sarcasm mine and intended!)
"No exceptions are to be made for women—same qualifications: serious, dependable, not sharp-tongued, not overfond of wine. Servants in the church are to be committed to their spouses, attentive to their own children, and diligent in looking after their own affairs. " 1 Tim. 3:11-12 The Message
Regardless of translation, I concede that these verses are significantly ambiguous enough that it may or may not support women as overseers, and/or deacons.
Good hermeneutics does require that any doctrine has to be made from more than one verse, especially one which does not fall on either side of the debate. Since there are NO verses which say a woman cannot be a deacon, I want to look at a positive verse which definitively says she can be a deacon.
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well." Romans 16:1-2 ESV
The RSV and ESV notes footnotes that the word "servant" could alternately be "deaconess" except for the fact that Paul uses the male term, because there actually was no word for deaconess in New Testament times, including contemporaneous sources!
Further, the designation "deaconess" did not develop until the late 3rd century or early 4th. So the word is either deacon, as it is in cases with the men; or servant, and then all the verses referring to men need to be translated as "servant."
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cen′chre-ae," Romans 16:1 RSV
"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς," Romans 16:1 Greek.
Above, διάκονον or diakonon, is in the accusative case, masculine singular. Further, Paul uses the word diakonon referencing a specific place. The commendation of Paul shows he intended to designate Phoebe as serving in some important official capacity in the Cenchrean church. She was a deacon, an office to which a congregation could appoint both men and women.
So Phoebe is clearly called a deacon, thus leading the only conclusion one can draw from the 1 Tim. 3 example, that Paul is citing qualifications for men and then women.
And for those calling me a liberal, like it is some horrible insult, I am Canadian. Which means that I am very conservative by Canadian standards, but likely a good label if I were American, which I am NOT!
Try and do a little cross-cultural research, besides some objective studying of the Greek!
Sources:
Danker and Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
Rogers Jr and Rogers III, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament
Grenz and Kjesbo, Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry
United Bible Societies, The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament
"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, " 1 Tim. 3:1-2 ESV
"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]δεῖ οὖν τὸν ἐπίσκοπον ἀνεπίλημπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον, φιλόξενον, διδακτικόν," 1 Tim. 3:1-2 Greek
Paul notes in verse one that aspiring to be an overseer is a noble task. The word "HE" does not appear in the Greek in verse 1, but rather the verb ὀρέγεται (oregetai) which is in the present, indicative middle, 3rd person singular, meaning to stretch oneself out, to aspire, to desire; and the verb ἐπιθυμεῖ (epithumei) present indicative active, 3rd person singular, meaning "to set one's heart on, to desire."
Thus both male and female are included in this opening verse, not "he" as most translations add, simply because English needs a pronoun, which is understood in the Greek. Therefore, verse 1 could just as easily say, "The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, SHE desires a noble task."
Verse 1 of 1 Tim. 3 uses ἐπισκοπῆς (ephiskopase) a feminine verb meaning:
"Office of a bishop; engagement in oversight, supervision; leader of Christian community"
Verse 2, on the other hand uses ἐπίσκοπον (ephiskonon) a masculine verb meaning:
"overseer, bishop, pastor; one who watches over something or someone; guardian, supervisor, inspector.
For the early church fathers, the word denoted function, rather than the status of anyone who who exercised supervision or control.
Then Paul begins with the men who hold the office in the next verses. There are a lot of conditions that need to be met, especially in Ephesus, including being the husband of one wife. (Aner is used here! Meaning man or husband!)
Verses 8 to 10 really get into further qualifications for deacons.
"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless." 1 Tim. 3:8-10
Then using parallel instructions to the women deacons in verse 11, Paul turns to the women overseers! ESV, KJV and HCSB and other complimentarian versions translate the word γυναῖκας (guvaikas) as wives, whereas more egalitarian versions like NIV and the Message both translate this word as "women" or "deaconesses" in the USB interlinear.
However, in order to use the word "wives" the complimentarian versions, including KJV must add the word "their" which does not appear in any version of the Greek. To translate it properly using "wives" It would have to say "Wives, must likewise..."
This is somewhat like adding the word "authority" to 1 Tim. 2:12, when the word does not appear in the Greek.
By adding "their" to the mix, it implies that this is how the deacons' wives are to behave, rather than certain women who qualify for the office of deacon. Leaving it as "Wives" implies all wives in the church, and this section, I am sure everyone will agree, concerns deacons!
"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV
"γυναῖκας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσιν." 1 Tim. 3:11 Greek
"The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 RSV
"In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV
I love the way the Message puts it below, but I already hear people screaming that I even dared to use the NIV, even though it is a valid use of the word γυναῖκας! (Let alone the heretical paraphrase, The Message - sarcasm mine and intended!)
"No exceptions are to be made for women—same qualifications: serious, dependable, not sharp-tongued, not overfond of wine. Servants in the church are to be committed to their spouses, attentive to their own children, and diligent in looking after their own affairs. " 1 Tim. 3:11-12 The Message
Regardless of translation, I concede that these verses are significantly ambiguous enough that it may or may not support women as overseers, and/or deacons.
Good hermeneutics does require that any doctrine has to be made from more than one verse, especially one which does not fall on either side of the debate. Since there are NO verses which say a woman cannot be a deacon, I want to look at a positive verse which definitively says she can be a deacon.
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well." Romans 16:1-2 ESV
The RSV and ESV notes footnotes that the word "servant" could alternately be "deaconess" except for the fact that Paul uses the male term, because there actually was no word for deaconess in New Testament times, including contemporaneous sources!
Further, the designation "deaconess" did not develop until the late 3rd century or early 4th. So the word is either deacon, as it is in cases with the men; or servant, and then all the verses referring to men need to be translated as "servant."
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cen′chre-ae," Romans 16:1 RSV
"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς," Romans 16:1 Greek.
Above, διάκονον or diakonon, is in the accusative case, masculine singular. Further, Paul uses the word diakonon referencing a specific place. The commendation of Paul shows he intended to designate Phoebe as serving in some important official capacity in the Cenchrean church. She was a deacon, an office to which a congregation could appoint both men and women.
So Phoebe is clearly called a deacon, thus leading the only conclusion one can draw from the 1 Tim. 3 example, that Paul is citing qualifications for men and then women.
And for those calling me a liberal, like it is some horrible insult, I am Canadian. Which means that I am very conservative by Canadian standards, but likely a good label if I were American, which I am NOT!
Try and do a little cross-cultural research, besides some objective studying of the Greek!
Sources:
Danker and Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
Rogers Jr and Rogers III, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament
Grenz and Kjesbo, Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry
United Bible Societies, The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament
So are we in agreement then that the bishop must be a man, since as you just pointed out, Paul said he must be a man?
As far as 'deacons' go, I don't see why that is an issue. There is a debate over whether Phoebe was a 'servant' of the church or if she was a 'deacon.' But 'deacon' means servant, and it wasn't a fancy title back then. Deacons in Baptist churches run the church. But that is different from what we see in the New Testament. The Seven appear to be the first deacons. They fed widows. They didn't oversee the local church. The Bible is very clear that women can minister in various ways. I don't see why someone should have a problem with women deacons/servants in the church ministering to the needs of others.
I think is a case of the translator rendering one Greek word as two English words, using words that you don't agree with, rather than 'adding' a word.
Theologically liberal is different from political liberal, at least in some ways.
I am not going to go the way of further deteriorate the thread by discussing an individual user. I just want to say this: I think there has been no mistakes here. What mistakes? A decent user will, if not sure what a opponent user is saying, first ask to make sure that it understands the other user, before going about. This has not been the case here. She knows what I mean and I know what she means. The attitude she shows in post #850 makes any good discussion with her an impossibility. Facts about the nature of the pie throwing posts here by various users are then easy to track if anyone so wishes.
As you seem to have read all my posts here you know where I am coming from. To summarize it for those who jumped in late and have no time to read all the many posts here, I will say that for me it is never an issue about what women can or can not do, or that I suggest women are to be dead silent, it is about the order of governance of the church. In that order Paul is not contrasting or conflicting the principle of the OT where exclusively men were ordained for certain tasks regarding the priestly ministry. With ordination in this regard is meant that official setting apart by way of laying on of hands of those in charge of such.
As you seem to have read all my posts here you know where I am coming from. To summarize it for those who jumped in late and have no time to read all the many posts here, I will say that for me it is never an issue about what women can or can not do, or that I suggest women are to be dead silent, it is about the order of governance of the church. In that order Paul is not contrasting or conflicting the principle of the OT where exclusively men were ordained for certain tasks regarding the priestly ministry. With ordination in this regard is meant that official setting apart by way of laying on of hands of those in charge of such.
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I just had a really long work week, something like 95 hours, so I didn't catch your original post. I read your post in a quote from another poster and read the whole thing. I didn't comment on the Greek part because I didn't have a comment I wanted to make. It's nothing personal about you or your hours reading the Greek. 
But honest, the 'usurp authority' part is a bit of a red herring, IMO, since a few verses later, we are told that the bishop is to be a man.
And scripture calls the elders of the church 'bishop'. Elders have been renamed 'pastor' in many Protestant churches.
I can't say I necessarily have a problem with women 'pastoring' per se. As overseers of the church, I don't think that's Biblical. But if an older woman is discipling a group of younger women in some unofficial capacity, might she not be 'pastoring' and teaching them in some sense? I think we read a lot of cultural stuff into the word 'pastors' in Ephesians 4:11. The word doesn't show up elsewhere in the New Testament except in reference to Christ and literal animal keepers. A closely related verb form is used in contexts referring to the ministry of elders and apostles. Jesus told Peter to pastor His sheep. Peter told the elders to pastor the flock of God. Paul told the elders of Ephesus to pastor the church of God over whom the Holy Ghost had made them bishops (also translated overseers). Peter told the elders to oversee the flock (c.f. bishop/overseer.) Paul asked of himself who pastors a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock.
Elder/bishops and apostles 'pastor.' I can't say other folks who aren't 'ordained' don't pastor.
But honest, the 'usurp authority' part is a bit of a red herring, IMO, since a few verses later, we are told that the bishop is to be a man. And scripture calls the elders of the church 'bishop'. Elders have been renamed 'pastor' in many Protestant churches.
I can't say I necessarily have a problem with women 'pastoring' per se. As overseers of the church, I don't think that's Biblical. But if an older woman is discipling a group of younger women in some unofficial capacity, might she not be 'pastoring' and teaching them in some sense? I think we read a lot of cultural stuff into the word 'pastors' in Ephesians 4:11. The word doesn't show up elsewhere in the New Testament except in reference to Christ and literal animal keepers. A closely related verb form is used in contexts referring to the ministry of elders and apostles. Jesus told Peter to pastor His sheep. Peter told the elders to pastor the flock of God. Paul told the elders of Ephesus to pastor the church of God over whom the Holy Ghost had made them bishops (also translated overseers). Peter told the elders to oversee the flock (c.f. bishop/overseer.) Paul asked of himself who pastors a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock.
Elder/bishops and apostles 'pastor.' I can't say other folks who aren't 'ordained' don't pastor.
Wow! You not only cherry pick the Bible, but my posts! Amazing!
In the place where Paul talks about men deacons, being the husband of one woman is a qualification, probably because... well, er... just because the men needed to hear that! Obviously the women didn't have a problem in this area.
In the place where Paul addresses women deacons, he cites other things, which perhaps are more unique to women, like slandering.
Sorry if I did not make this clear??? I thought I did, but after 2 hours, the brain does get weary.