Hell is real... and not unnecessary either

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Elijah19

Guest
#1
Revelation 21:8 KJV --- But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I keep hearing a lot of Christians say that they don't believe that a loving God could let/make someone suffer an eternity in hell just because they don't submit to Him and believe. The problem with that is, hell is an unmistakable reality of the Bible (as evidenced above). There are more than a plethora of verses on it, and not believing in hell will be dangerous, since that would very nearly make sin and unbelief completely justified. After all, if everyone goes to heaven, why try to follow God and find salvation if it's already inevitable that you will be saved and find Him anyway?

I can understand why the concept of hell is uncomfortable (believe me) but I'd ask anyone who questions hell's existence or finds the idea of it irreconcilable with God's character to consider something here... I'll say it, and first you're gonna hate me for it, but it's just the truth... Hell is necessary. Why?

Because otherwise Jesus and Hitler will be playing foursquare in heaven together with Muhammad and Mr. Rogers, that's why! I dunno about you, but that sounds like it could get sour real fast. Seriously,... some people just need to go to hell, and Biblically speaking that's not an unchristian thing to say either.

But all jokes aside, you have to consider what C.S Lewis said here, "All who go to hell chose it." It isn't about God being an angry smiting judge from the sky, it's about humanity making a choice, same as at the beginning... Follow God or follow self. Those who follow themselves condemn themselves, and their judgement is all on them. As for God, his love is so perfect that he even gave his Son to die for us. Hells existence does not in any way contradict God's loving character. Rather, we should be amazed that He even loves us enough to give us a chance to escape it at all! Praise God that He did.
 
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JustinFromTwinCities

Guest
#2
Hell exists, but in my opinion, the Bible makes it pretty clear that hell will be destroyed along with ungodly men after judgement
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
70
48
#3
Revelation 21:8 KJV --- But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I keep hearing a lot of Christians say that they don't believe that a loving God could let/make someone suffer an eternity in hell just because they don't submit to Him and believe. The problem with that is, hell is an unmistakable reality of the Bible (as evidenced above). There are more than a plethora of verses on it, and not believing in hell will be dangerous, since that would very nearly make sin and unbelief completely justified. After all, if everyone goes to heaven, why try to follow God and find salvation if it's already inevitable that you will be saved and find Him anyway?

I can understand why the concept of hell is uncomfortable (believe me) but I'd ask anyone who questions hell's existence or finds the idea of it irreconcilable with God's character to consider something here... I'll say it, and first you're gonna hate me for it, but it's just the truth... Hell is necessary. Why?

Because otherwise Jesus and Hitler will be playing foursquare in heaven together with Muhammad and Mr. Rogers, that's why! I dunno about you, but that sounds like it could get sour real fast. Seriously,... some people just need to go to hell, and Biblically speaking that's not an unchristian thing to say either.

But all jokes aside, you have to consider what C.S Lewis said here, "All who go to hell chose it." It isn't about God being an angry smiting judge from the sky, it's about humanity making a choice, same as at the beginning... Follow God or follow self. Those who follow themselves condemn themselves, and their judgement is all on them. As for God, his love is so perfect that he even gave his Son to die for us. Hells existence does not in any way contradict God's loving character. Rather, we should be amazed that He even loves us enough to give us a chance to escape it at all! Praise God that He did.
God desires that none perish, However Those who end up in Hell, have chosen to live apart from God. Please read this article called The Meaning of Life. We are all here in the flesh, on the Earth, to be TESTed. Those who fail that test, choose to fail, as you said in the last paragraph above, selfish.
The Kingdom of Heaven is looking for those who LOVE ONE ANOTHER, The Kingdom of Heaven will reject those who are selfish, love self, those who live in pleasures (selfishness) The Word of God teaches us plainly what True Christians are to do once they are SAVED, Those who choose not to do those things, choose where they will end up in the end. It is written you master is to whom you obey. So when people end up in Hell, they will understand full well, why they are there, because Scriptures are True and can't be broken. if you live in sins, that is to say, you continue to do those sins that so easily besets you, and never cease from them, you CHOOSE who you serve.
When you are being tempted to commit a sin, which you know full well is sinful, God/Holy Ghost/conscience/conviction is whispering not to do it, it is sinful, the devil/demons/flesh/selfishness is whispering to commit the sin. WHO you choose to obey is YOUR MASTER.
It is not God's fault if people end up in Hell, The Scriptures over and over again teaches us against sin. Not God's fault, not the Scriptures fault, not my fault, But the one who does not listen and abide in the Word of God, freely chooses to be disobedient children, chooses to be selfish time and time again. And those who think they can't cease from sin, are what the Bible calls cursed children. OH how everyone would learn to HATE sin and come to the Truth (Jesus Christ) who has the Strength and power to help anyone overcome their sins.

^i^ Responding to OP
 

jduck1986

Junior Member
Mar 13, 2014
22
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#4
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish​ but have eternal life.
 
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Jruiz

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
565
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#5
Just because someone doesn't believe in eternal torment doesn't mean we think unbelievers go to heaven...the wicked are destroyed,perish,annihilated...and for any human to say burning in fire for all eternity is justifiable is worse than Hitler...human beings with our human knowledge can't even grasp that idea as punishment...And I may be wrong...but I honestly don't even want to think about. Just like the pilot who got burned to death.
 
Feb 5, 2015
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#6
Hell is a real place, Just as Heaven is a real place. God set the rules and not man. You either accept the work of the cross or you do not. If not then you cast your lot in hell fire forever.
 

Reborn

Senior Member
Nov 16, 2014
4,087
217
63
#7
......Rather, we should be amazed that He even loves us enough to give us a chance to escape it at all! Praise God that He did.
You could have just stated this. :)
None of us deserve it,.....but He is amazing.

He just eventually gives every soul what they truly want.

A place where He is.
or simply.......
A place where He is not.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#8
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish​ but have eternal life.
For me the important part of this verse is "whosoever believeth in Him"
 
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Elijah19

Guest
#9
Why, if you don't think Hell is justifiable, does the verse I mentioned before seem to agree with it. The fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, that the Bible teaches Hell's existence point blank. It's not something to be happy about, certainly. But if God has declared it as a justice against the wicked (please read the verse I posted before), then it is perfectly justifiable. And I submit to you that it would be justifiable on all of us unless we accepted Jesus. Otherwise, the Gospel would be virtually pointless. Honestly, what are we being "saved" from if not from the lake of fire like the Bible says. None of this is just my opinion. It's God's. Read your Bible.

"for any human to say burning in fire for all eternity is justifiable is worse than Hitler" (quoting you) huh? God says fire for eternity is justifiable for some people, Jruiz!
 
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GaryA

Guest
#10
When you are being tempted to commit a sin, which you know full well is sinful, God/Holy Ghost/conscience/conviction is whispering not to do it, it is sinful, the devil/demons/flesh/selfishness are screaming / yelling to commit the sin.
"There --- fixed it for 'ya..." ;)

:)
 

jduck1986

Junior Member
Mar 13, 2014
22
1
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#11
For me the important part of this verse is "whosoever believeth in Him"
I was making a point that the wicked are destroyed. If I was making a point against calvinism then I would have stressed that part.
 
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GaryA

Guest
#12
( ALL: )


To understand this issue better, look at this verse of scripture:


Revelation 14:

[SUP]11[/SUP]
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


If you understand that God is Holy and Righteous -- and completely justified to do whatever He wishes with His creation -- and that, He desires and deserves to be glorified by His creation ( by definition - anything else would be a sin against Him by His creation )...

God has "set things up" so that He WILL be glorified by EVERY soul for all eternity -- whether by voluntary action of a willing participant - or, by "the smoke of their torment" as they "burn" in the lake of fire without end.

Do you understand how "burning in the lake of fire forever" glorifies God?

:)
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#13
In regards to the OP: The verse you quote actually refutes you. It says "Second Death" in that passage and not Eternal Conscious Torture. Again, like many I have talked to, you will not be able to explain how the moral goodness of God torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes is fair and just. You will never be able to explain how that is righteous and good to burn people alive for all eternity. Not gonna happen. Actually 48% of the verses that of 264 verses that deal with the punishment of the wicked are in favor of Conditional Immortality. That is just a fact. There are only a very small percentage of verses that make it sound like it is Eternal Torment but they are a misunderstanding on the reader not doing their homework in Scripture. Verses are twisted beyond their context to support ECT and passages that clearly teach Conditional Immortality that use the words like perish, destroyed, death, turned to ash, etc. go ignored.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#14
( ALL: )


To understand this issue better, look at this verse of scripture:


Revelation 14:

[SUP]11[/SUP]
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


If you understand that God is Holy and Righteous -- and completely justified to do whatever He wishes with His creation -- and that, He desires and deserves to be glorified by His creation ( by definition - anything else would be a sin against Him by His creation )...

God has "set things up" so that He WILL be glorified by EVERY soul for all eternity -- whether by voluntary action of a willing participant - or, by "the smoke of their torment" as they "burn" in the lake of fire without end.

Do you understand how "burning in the lake of fire forever" glorifies God?

:)
I cannot tell if you are joking or not. But to answer your question. It would be a strong.... No. God torturing somebody waaaaay beyond what the crime calls would not glorify God. The Lord is just, fair, righteous, and good. God's morality can be explained. It's not a mystery. As for Revelation 14:11 - There are other related passages thru out the Bible that speak of how fire and brimstone rises from a destroyed city forever and ever. Surely the inhabitants of that city are not still alive. The smoke of their torment is a metaphorical phrase. Please look at Revelation 14:11's related passages in the Bible please.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
10,350
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#15
God desires that none perish,
I agree. God desires that none perish. Perish means to be destroyed. Perishable goods is when they rot away and decay. When my paperwork was thrown in the fire it had perished. But if I thrown my paperwork in the fire and it magically was not burning somehow, then I cannot say that my paperwork has perished, now could I? Think about it.
 
J

JOHN1513

Guest
#16
Hell exists, but in my opinion, the Bible makes it pretty clear that hell will be destroyed along with ungodly men after judgement

Verse pleases

Your friend
Jeremiah Howell
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#17
In regards to the OP: The verse you quote actually refutes you. It says "Second Death" in that passage and not Eternal Conscious Torture. Again, like many I have talked to, you will not be able to explain how the moral goodness of God torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes is fair and just. You will never be able to explain how that is righteous and good to burn people alive for all eternity. Not gonna happen. Actually 48% of the verses that of 264 verses that deal with the punishment of the wicked are in favor of Conditional Immortality. That is just a fact. There are only a very small percentage of verses that make it sound like it is Eternal Torment but they are a misunderstanding on the reader not doing their homework in Scripture. Verses are twisted beyond their context to support ECT and passages that clearly teach Conditional Immortality that use the words like perish, destroyed, death, turned to ash, etc. go ignored.
I mean, think about it. Does the word "death" conjure up images of life to you?
 
Jan 20, 2015
456
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#18
A question to the OP

Considering you could believe in alternative hell fire doctrines, and none of that which would detract from being biblically accurate. Why would you choose the most horrific one.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#19
( ALL: )


To understand this issue better, look at this verse of scripture:


Revelation 14:

[SUP]11[/SUP]
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


If you understand that God is Holy and Righteous -- and completely justified to do whatever He wishes with His creation -- and that, He desires and deserves to be glorified by His creation ( by definition - anything else would be a sin against Him by His creation )...

God has "set things up" so that He WILL be glorified by EVERY soul for all eternity -- whether by voluntary action of a willing participant - or, by "the smoke of their torment" as they "burn" in the lake of fire without end.

Do you understand how "burning in the lake of fire forever" glorifies God?

:)
the fire is eternal but the "torment" for the wicked humans will not happen;

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:7 reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ezekiyl 18:20-28, "The soul that sins, it will die. The son will not bear the iniquity of the father, nor will the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is Lawful and right, then he will surely live; he will not die. And his transgressions that he has committed will not be mentioned against him; in his righteousness that he has done, he will live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says Father Yahweh: No, but rather that he would turn back from his wicked ways, and live. But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does--should he live? All his righteousness that he has done will not be mentioned in his behalf. In his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them he will die. Yet you say; The way of Yahweh is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israyl: Is not My way equal? Are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity and dies, it is because of the iniquity he has done, that he will die. Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is Lawful and right, he will save himself, and live. Because he considered, and turned away from all his transgressions that he has committed, he will surely live; he will not die."

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27, "Do you not know that those who run in a race all compete, but only one receives the prize? So run your race that you may lay hold of the prize, and make it yours. And everyone who competes conducts himself temperately in all things. Now they compete to obtain a perishable crown; but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore, I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man who beats the air. No, I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

"2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

wicked = 113. athesmos
Strong's Concordance
athesmos: lawless
Original Word: ἄθεσμος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: athesmos
Phonetic Spelling: (ath'-es-mos)
Short Definition:lawless
Definition: lawless, unrestrained, licentious.

ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the lawless

ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the unrestrained

ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the licentious

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Hebrews 9:11-12, "But the Messiah came near as a High Priest over the righteous things to come, with the great and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation;Nor through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Acts 3:19 Parallel Verses
"Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out; that times of refreshing may come from the presence of YHWH."

New International Version
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

John (Yahchanan) 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166. poimén)."
 
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breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
767
113
39
Australia
#20
Hell exists, but in my opinion, the Bible makes it pretty clear that hell will be destroyed along with ungodly men after judgement

Verse pleases

Your friend
Jeremiah Howell
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:12-15)