Hell is real... and not unnecessary either

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Dec 12, 2013
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#41
(Christian mode on)

Do you think maybe why you're all debating over this doctrine is not because one side is wrong and the other is right, its because the bible has more than one point of view on this subject and both sides are reading it right. Now do you think maybe the reason why the bible has different points of views is because like paul said "we see through a glass darkly" and maybe the bible writers grappled with different doctrines and ideas as well and what they were grappling with just ended up in the bible.



(Christian mode off)
Sorry, but no cigar as there is one eternal truth to everything that can be known of God and God's ways......To say that there are two different truths concerning the state of the lost is to contradict the word of God and breed confusion.....at the end of the day the rejection of words, phrases and statements as found in the bible and as well as context will lead to faulty conclusions and a misapplication of truth....the word of God is spiritual in nature and origin and the natural man cannot spiritually discern the word of God much less know it.....!
 
Jan 20, 2015
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#42
Sorry, but no cigar as there is one eternal truth to everything that can be known of God and God's ways......To say that there are two different truths concerning the state of the lost is to contradict the word of God and breed confusion.....at the end of the day the rejection of words, phrases and statements as found in the bible and as well as context will lead to faulty conclusions and a misapplication of truth....the word of God is spiritual in nature and origin and the natural man cannot spiritually discern the word of God much less know it.....!
Its obvious the bible does say different things about the same subjects, otherwise you'd mostly all agree.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#43
Its obvious the bible does say different things about the same subjects, otherwise you'd mostly all agree.
ones heart, interpretation, translations, different families of manuscripts, different lying preachers, etc lead to different doctrines, yet I believe there is one absolute truth.
 
Jan 20, 2015
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#44
ones heart, interpretation, translations, different families of manuscripts, different lying preachers, etc lead to different doctrines, yet I believe there is one absolute truth.
So do I. (Text added to post)
 
J

JustinFromTwinCities

Guest
#45
I think you are doing great work Jason. Those statistics you posted here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...iew-hell-lake-fire-loving-15.html#post1905087
really drive it home.

It's not an easy thing to get people to consider, yet I think it is very important to talk about. I have no idea how many people have been driven away from God because of the doctrine of eternal torment and what it implies about His character, but I imagine it is a very unfortunate number.

Then again, part of me is thinking (just a random thought, I'm not claiming to know this) that maybe God intentionally worded the Bible in this way so that some people would misunderstand and preach the fear of eternal hellfire. After all, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and it is a great initial motivator for those who are sinful and fleshly minded. Then those who truly seek out the truth of the matter will find it.

Would you bet that the number of people who have turned to God because of eternal torment is greater or lesser than the amount of people who turned from God because of it? My bet would be that ECT towards God is the greater number. Yet I personally could never preach that concept again (or anything else I thought was false) knowing what I now know.

I hope people don't misunderstand. I do not think sin goes unpunished by any means. I would fear any amount of God's wrath. I am completely convinced that justice will be served in full and in no way should evil men think they are getting off easy. I just don't think it will take God an eternity to deliver justice, as creative and powerful as He is.

Luckily, for those who already love and walk with Christ, believing one way or the other will not endanger their salvation. We will all know who our Father is soon enough.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#47
I think you are doing great work Jason. Those statistics you posted here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...iew-hell-lake-fire-loving-15.html#post1905087
really drive it home.

It's not an easy thing to get people to consider, yet I think it is very important to talk about. I have no idea how many people have been driven away from God because of the doctrine of eternal torment and what it implies about His character, but I imagine it is a very unfortunate number.

Then again, part of me is thinking (just a random thought, I'm not claiming to know this) that maybe God intentionally worded the Bible in this way so that some people would misunderstand and preach the fear of eternal hellfire. After all, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and it is a great initial motivator for those who are sinful and fleshly minded. Then those who truly seek out the truth of the matter will find it.

Would you bet that the number of people who have turned to God because of eternal torment is greater or lesser than the amount of people who turned from God because of it? My bet would be that ECT towards God is the greater number. Yet I personally could never preach that concept again (or anything else I thought was false) knowing what I now know.

I hope people don't misunderstand. I do not think sin goes unpunished by any means. I would fear any amount of God's wrath. I am completely convinced that justice will be served in full and in no way should evil men think they are getting off easy. I just don't think it will take God an eternity to deliver justice, as creative and powerful as He is.

Luckily, for those who already love and walk with Christ, believing one way or the other will not endanger their salvation. We will all know who our Father is soon enough.
Thank you; And well said my brother.

Oh, and yes. It is the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil. For I repented at the visual image of an angel casting someone into the Lake of Fire. This was from the Chick Tract titled "This Was Your Life" and it was very effective for me personally to be in fear of the Lord to repent of my sins and accept Christ.
 
Jan 20, 2015
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#48
Is that why you argued in post 42.....I said the same thing Hiz......ONE TRUTH for everything found in scriptures........!
Yes if the scriptures tell us "everything" everything is alot you know.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#49
Yes if the scriptures tell us "everything" everything is alot you know.
If we study scriptures as we are suppose to it is not that difficult... but we give God the scraps and expect Him to give us treasures.
 
E

Elijah19

Guest
#50
Probably because the most horrific one is the only Biblical one. True it has been said, though, that even Hell will be destroyed. I just believe the Bible...
 
E

Elijah19

Guest
#51
Since God defines morality, He can technically do as he wishes with anyone. Also, our petty crimes stack up pretty large against His purity, Jason. So no, the idea of eternal punishment over a few finite crimes is perfectly reconcilable with God's loving character.

And honestly, the Bible only teaches that specific view of hell. Doesn't matter that it's uncomfortable. All we need to know is that it exists in the way described. Yes, the Bible does say hell is a place of eternal torment (until it is done away with). No, that does not contradict God's character to send people there because it took Christ's death to erase sin. Why not an equally intense punishment on those who refuse Christ as the polar opposite which complements the reward on those who accept Him? Makes perfect sense.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#52
Probably because the most horrific one is the only Biblical one. True it has been said, though, that even Hell will be destroyed. I just believe the Bible...
If we believe hell will be destroyed what will happen to the sinners and the devil going to hell?
 
Jan 20, 2015
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#53
If we study scriptures as we are suppose to it is not that difficult... but we give God the scraps and expect Him to give us treasures.
But learning everything about the truth isn't just spiritual. Such as the truth of science, art, music, technology, knowledge, ect.. all those things are apart of the greater truth as well, would you not agree?
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#54
But learning everything about the truth isn't just spiritual. Such as the truth of science, art, music, technology, knowledge, ect.. all those things are apart of the greater truth as well, would you not agree?
The "truth" is so corrupted that we have to go back to our roots and our root is the word of God. Everything outside this framework is basically the corruption of the world we life in... even if we study music, art, technology and science.
 
K

keeth

Guest
#55
per·ish (pµr“¹sh) v. per·ished, per·ish·ing, per·ish·es. --intr. 1. To die or be destroyed, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually. 3. Chiefly British. To spoil or deteriorate. --tr. To bring to destruction; destroy. --idiom. perish the thought. Used to express the wish that one not even think about something.

Here are some scriptures about the fact that the wicked will perish.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. 2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. 3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.


Ps 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.


Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.


Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. 12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.



John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


II Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?



Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Sodom and Gommorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, they are no more, they perished. Who does not understand the concept of putting down an incurably sick animal? All who choose to reject life in Christ, have chosen to remain incurably diseased with sin which itself produces death, and is highly contagious. They will be put down, after receiving the just reward for their sins, which they chose over the forgiveness and life offered them through Christ. Justice ans mercy meet in Christ. God, through His Son Jesus Christ, has done everything He possibly could to save us, short of forcing it upon us. Those who refuse the their salvation purchased at such an infinite cost, the life of the Son of God, will receive judgment for their own sins and then be no more. this all by their own choice.
 
Jan 20, 2015
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#56
The "truth" is so corrupted that we have to go back to our roots and our root is the word of God. Everything outside this framework is basically the corruption of the world we life in... even if we study music, art, technology and science.
Is it not writen "study the ant you sluggard" is that not a commandmet from God to also learn from what he has created in the natural world.
 
Last edited:
Jul 22, 2014
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#57
Since God defines morality, He can technically do as he wishes with anyone. Also, our petty crimes stack up pretty large against His purity, Jason. So no, the idea of eternal punishment over a few finite crimes is perfectly reconcilable with God's loving character.
Even if a person did the most horrific sins their entire life, they are still limited in number. Even against God's holiness and purity, there has to be an end to someone being farily punished in such a case. So no, you just saying ECT is reconcilable to God's loving character does not make it so. Especially when you know that no other type of justice exists like this here upon this Earth ever. God never tortured people the rest of their lives as punishment for breaking His laws. Please explain to me how a finite amount of crimes is justifyable for a punishment that is eternal? I know these crimes are sins are done against a holy and an eternal God. But people do not sin eternally. They sin in linear time.

And honestly, the Bible only teaches that specific view of hell.
No, the majority of protestant churches teach ECT. There is a difference. The Bible does not really teach ECT at all. Only a super small select few verses are taken out of context to make ECT sound like it works. Actually more verses favor Conditional Immortality. But are you interested in that? No. Of course not.

Doesn't matter that it's uncomfortable.
Again, this is a dangerous way of thinking when you ignore your moral compass. For people who ignore their moral compass have fallen prey to being a victim to religious nuts such as Jim Jones, etc. So please forgive me if I stand up for what I know to be morally good and right. I used to believe in ECT blindly like you, too. I used to defend it. So I know exactly where you are coming from. But there comes a point where Scripture and common basic morality will awaken you to the truth. Maybe that will happen for you. Maybe it won't. But I pray it does.

All we need to know is that it exists in the way described. Yes, the Bible does say hell is a place of eternal torment (until it is done away with).
What verses do you believe teach ECT? I guarantee you it is not that many.

No, that does not contradict God's character to send people there because it took Christ's death to erase sin. Why not an equally intense punishment on those who refuse Christ as the polar opposite which complements the reward on those who accept Him? Makes perfect sense.
No. Eternal suffering is not the polar opposite of Christ's limited one time suffering on the cross. That is not a balanced scale. Christ died in our place.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
#58
Jason:

ECT ?

Eternal C...? Torment

Eternal Continual Torment ?
Eternal Conditional Torment ?

:confused:
 
E

Elijah19

Guest
#59
Rev. 20:10 "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Mark 9:47
47
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,
48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

So we know that the above place is hell, and that it includes torture day and night forever. Sounds like ECT (eternal conscious torment) to me. What else would you call it?

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42
41
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If there is weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell, that automatically qualifies as Conscious Torment...
Again another verse about conscious torment...

Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,[a] so that they may have the right tothe tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

How are the residents of hell outside of the kingdom of heaven if they have been destroyed? From these verses we can infer that the Bible teaches these things based on context:

-Hell goes on "forever and ever," which is eternal (i.e. the first two verses)
-There is "weeping and gnashing of teeth," which constitutes conscious torment (i.e. the next two verses)
-Resident of Hell "live" outside the city of God according to "revelation" (i.e. they were not destroyed, but reside there in the above described state)
-The Bible is always right, so the above verses are right as well

Hence, we must either conclude that ECT is correct, or the Bible is wrong. The logic follows conclusively, and ECT in scripture abounds. I did not make any of that up. God decided it. He is the author of morality, so if I agree with Him on this, I am not making a cruel or misinformed statement. I merely agree with God's justice, however intense it may be. The clay does not question the potter. Nor does man have a right to question the judgement of God (i.e. ECT).