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M
Wecome to CC, I posted these scriptures and will probably do a study on Matthew 24 next
Lets look at the entirety of Luke 21 and see the entire picture Christ gives us.
1And He looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2And He saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3And He said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Establishes that Christ is in the temple at this time. The meaning of the rich men and the poor widow has to do with the corruption that has befallen the Temple 'Mark 11:17And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves' Who is the chief of thieves? That would be satan. Not only is he corrupting with the rich men and their money he will try to steal the poor woman's living soul.
5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
So we know why and now we are going to find out when the temple shall be destroyed.
8.And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
'for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ' Who shall be coming in the endtimes? Satan and the fallen angels shall come, the same ones He spoke of in Mt 24:24 the same ones He said that will have supernatural abilities. Then He says 'the time draweth near' but it is not time yet. No rapture yet.
Here we find Pauls writing aligns perfectly with Christ's. It documents that satan is sitting in the temple of God and is being worshipped as if he was God. It goes on to state that and we SHALL NOT be gathered together unto Christ until the man of sin(satan) the phoney christ be revealed.
2 THES ch2 1-6
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Paul tells us right here that you now know what is going to happen, why would anyone believe differently?
9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Fear not friend. God will provide, for these things must happen but still no end yet. Still no mention of a rapture.
10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
You still have nothing to fear.
12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Wait a second, now follow closely, the Lord goes back here and tells you what will happen before the events of the last three verses. You shall be delivered up for his names sake because you refuse to worship the false christ. Still no rapture yet to be mentioned.
13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
If God can't use you what good are you? He wants to use you to testify! In verse 12 it's says we shall be delivered up before synagogues, into prisons, and before kings and rulers. Now who is the great beast at the head of all this? It is satan in the endtimes, that's when you shall be given and deliver this testimony by the Holy Spirit.
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Don't even plan what you are gonna say, the Holy Spirit shall fill you and give you the words to say in that day. Still no rapture yet.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Even your own family might be deceived because they believe that this is Christ when its really satan. 'and some of you shall they cause to be put to death' death is another name of satan[hebrews 2:14] It doesn't say you are dead but you are brought before satan and have been given a death sentence.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
The whole world is under the spell of satan, but you refuse to bow to the fake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
You see? You belong to God. You shall live forever, no death.
19In your patience possess ye your souls.
Endure to the end friend!
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
The stage has been set! but still no rapture. You better be getting on your way out of there now.
HE IS TELLING US WHEN WE WILL MAKE OUR ESCAPE!
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Just like Lot. The Lord did not fly him away He gave him a way out.
HE IS TELLING US WHERE AND HOW TO MAKE OUR ESCAPE!
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Vengeance is the Lords. It has begun.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Do you really think God is going to punish people for being parents? God forbid. He's warning those that have already partaken in the spiritual wedding with the false christ. Those that are not spiritually virgins. His bride shall be a virgin, not with child!
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
The labor pains of the earth begin and Gods bride shall rejoice and those that took pleasure in unrighteousness woe unto you. Your fake marriage is over.
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
He's coming with a great multitude of angels; a cloud
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Blessed be the Messiah, our Redeemer forever and ever Amen
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Ok, Ok don't get excited now we have a parable so now we are going back and looking at more events before our Lords coming. This is not after the events of verse 28. The parable of the fig tree can be lengthy so a complete study is better suited for another time.
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Study the word so you know whats going to happen and search the scriptures.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
But not you friend, for you let yourself receive the love of the truth.
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
He told us how to escape, not by flying away like a bunch of ducks in the winter but rather you shall STAND! The Lord told us what to look for and when to flee and said fear not. He shall protect us. STAND! and receive the love of Christ! Forever and ever Amen
Lets look at the rest of 2 Thes ch2 and see what else Paul tells us.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The snare is already being prepared with the false rapture doctrine. Did you think God would not know of this?
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9{Even him}, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The texts omit 'Even him'. Paul warns us again Christ is coming after satan to destroy him and the temple. Then he goes on to document as Christ repeatedly did, that satan shall have supernatural abilities to fool people during his false reign.
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What is the strong delusion God will send? He is going to cast satan down and let him deceive the whole world and those that have not accepted what He wrote to us. You have all this evidence and you insist on believing the false rapture doctrine and for this you shall be unprepared and partake in the false wedding.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Praise God! for this is His plan.
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For those with ears that hear.
15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Did He say fly? No! He said STAND fast! Hold the traditions of men? No! Hold the traditions of His word and epistle that the word taught you!
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
Blessed is the name of the Lord Forever and ever Amen
17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Peace unto you in Jesus Christ
37And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
38And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.
Repost for MaryLee
I wanted to add a little more commentary about the testimony that we will be giving and inserted scripture from Paul. We document that Christ and Paul never gave a different account about our gathering together unto Him. We establish that not only is there not a rapture, but God is set against the the false rapture teaching. Also I fixed some typos
Lets look at the entirety of Luke 21 and see the entire picture Christ gives us.
1And He looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2And He saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3And He said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Establishes that Christ is in the temple at this time. The meaning of the rich men and the poor widow has to do with the corruption that has befallen the Temple 'Mark 11:17And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves' Who is the chief of thieves? That would be satan. Not only is he corrupting with the rich men and their money he will try to steal the poor woman's living soul.
5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
So we know why and now we are going to find out when the temple shall be destroyed.
8.And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
'for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ' Who shall be coming in the endtimes? Satan and the fallen angels shall come, the same ones He spoke of in Mt 24:24 the same ones He said that will have supernatural abilities. Then He says 'the time draweth near' but it is not time yet. No rapture yet.
Here we find Pauls writing aligns perfectly with Christ's. It documents that satan is sitting in the temple of God and is being worshipped as if he was God. It goes on to state that and we SHALL NOT be gathered together unto Christ until the man of sin(satan) the phoney christ be revealed.
2 THES ch2 1-6
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Paul tells us right here that you now know what is going to happen, why would anyone believe differently?
9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Fear not friend. God will provide, for these things must happen but still no end yet. Still no mention of a rapture.
10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
You still have nothing to fear.
12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Wait a second, now follow closely, the Lord goes back here and tells you what will happen before the events of the last three verses. You shall be delivered up for his names sake because you refuse to worship the false christ. Still no rapture yet to be mentioned.
13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
If God can't use you what good are you? He wants to use you to testify! In verse 12 it's says we shall be delivered up before synagogues, into prisons, and before kings and rulers. Now who is the great beast at the head of all this? It is satan in the endtimes, that's when you shall be given and deliver this testimony by the Holy Spirit.
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Don't even plan what you are gonna say, the Holy Spirit shall fill you and give you the words to say in that day. Still no rapture yet.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Even your own family might be deceived because they believe that this is Christ when its really satan. 'and some of you shall they cause to be put to death' death is another name of satan[hebrews 2:14] It doesn't say you are dead but you are brought before satan and have been given a death sentence.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
The whole world is under the spell of satan, but you refuse to bow to the fake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
You see? You belong to God. You shall live forever, no death.
19In your patience possess ye your souls.
Endure to the end friend!
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
The stage has been set! but still no rapture. You better be getting on your way out of there now.
HE IS TELLING US WHEN WE WILL MAKE OUR ESCAPE!
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Just like Lot. The Lord did not fly him away He gave him a way out.
HE IS TELLING US WHERE AND HOW TO MAKE OUR ESCAPE!
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Vengeance is the Lords. It has begun.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Do you really think God is going to punish people for being parents? God forbid. He's warning those that have already partaken in the spiritual wedding with the false christ. Those that are not spiritually virgins. His bride shall be a virgin, not with child!
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
The labor pains of the earth begin and Gods bride shall rejoice and those that took pleasure in unrighteousness woe unto you. Your fake marriage is over.
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
He's coming with a great multitude of angels; a cloud
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Blessed be the Messiah, our Redeemer forever and ever Amen
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Ok, Ok don't get excited now we have a parable so now we are going back and looking at more events before our Lords coming. This is not after the events of verse 28. The parable of the fig tree can be lengthy so a complete study is better suited for another time.
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Study the word so you know whats going to happen and search the scriptures.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
But not you friend, for you let yourself receive the love of the truth.
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
He told us how to escape, not by flying away like a bunch of ducks in the winter but rather you shall STAND! The Lord told us what to look for and when to flee and said fear not. He shall protect us. STAND! and receive the love of Christ! Forever and ever Amen
Lets look at the rest of 2 Thes ch2 and see what else Paul tells us.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The snare is already being prepared with the false rapture doctrine. Did you think God would not know of this?
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9{Even him}, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
The texts omit 'Even him'. Paul warns us again Christ is coming after satan to destroy him and the temple. Then he goes on to document as Christ repeatedly did, that satan shall have supernatural abilities to fool people during his false reign.
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What is the strong delusion God will send? He is going to cast satan down and let him deceive the whole world and those that have not accepted what He wrote to us. You have all this evidence and you insist on believing the false rapture doctrine and for this you shall be unprepared and partake in the false wedding.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Praise God! for this is His plan.
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For those with ears that hear.
15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Did He say fly? No! He said STAND fast! Hold the traditions of men? No! Hold the traditions of His word and epistle that the word taught you!
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
Blessed is the name of the Lord Forever and ever Amen
17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Peace unto you in Jesus Christ
37And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
38And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.
S
Jesus the Christ said in Matthew 24:
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So there is no "pre-tribulation rapture". We have to endure till the end so that we may be gathered together by the Lord`s angels.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So there is no "pre-tribulation rapture". We have to endure till the end so that we may be gathered together by the Lord`s angels.
Well, it will occur just like Jesus said, Jesus said to flee to the mountains. He never said they were going to be pre-tribulated. But they were kept safe through it by obeying Jesus's commands. It's meant for them, who did go through their great tribulation (destruction of jerusalem) and for us who may go through any future great tribulation.
M
I would like to encourage posters to quote the verse(s) in the Bible which agrees with their position.
I am a former pre-tribber because I was believing what my teachers or preachers were teaching me.
But,I studied for myself and read books of differing views and became a historical post-trib.
Have any of you read a post-trib book (besides the Bible)?
After you change your view, you become curious how did the doctrine come about?
So I read several of Dave MacPherson's books and others who talk about the origin of the pre-trib view.
Are we aware that nobody ever taught pre-trib before 1830?
I am a former pre-tribber because I was believing what my teachers or preachers were teaching me.
But,I studied for myself and read books of differing views and became a historical post-trib.
Have any of you read a post-trib book (besides the Bible)?
After you change your view, you become curious how did the doctrine come about?
So I read several of Dave MacPherson's books and others who talk about the origin of the pre-trib view.
Are we aware that nobody ever taught pre-trib before 1830?
It's ok to admit you have no better evidence than pseudo-ephraim. I would hope you are intellectually honest and searching for facts and truth. By the way it was the Spirit and studying the Word for myself that lead me from being a pre-trib believer into the truth. That I found it has little historical support later on, was icing on the cake.
So you keep saying you have 2 "at least" but come on you cannot match the amount of support that the post-trib belief has, there just isn't that much historical record existing, I know that for a fact. You may as well admit it instead of pretending it is a well-founded or historical doctrine. Pre-tribbers I find take two stances, either they pretend that the historical record agrees with their view, (despite evidence to the contrary or their inability to produce any), or they admit that the historical support for their view is lax and prefer to argue progressive revelation - that God has revealed new (and truthful) things to people in the past couple of hundred of years.
G
You mean like this?
Daniel 12
1"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time. And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one who shall be found written in the book.
2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
5Then I, Daniel, looked; and behold, there stood two others, the one on this side of the bank of the river and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was upon the waters of the river, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
7And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when he shall have accomplished scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8And I heard, but I understood not. Then said I, "O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
9And he said, "Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10Many shall be purified and made white and tried, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
Daniel 12
1"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time. And at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one who shall be found written in the book.
2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
5Then I, Daniel, looked; and behold, there stood two others, the one on this side of the bank of the river and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was upon the waters of the river, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?"
7And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when he shall have accomplished scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8And I heard, but I understood not. Then said I, "O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
9And he said, "Go thy way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10Many shall be purified and made white and tried, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
There was one or two in the 1700's I believe before the 1830 but thats about it. No pre-tribber I know, including myself (when I was one) , has been able to produce solid evidence for earlier than that. That's why all you are able to do, greatkraw, is tell others how wrong they are, without any proof or evidence.
M
If anyone would be curious enough to see some background on those who have claimed that Morgan Edwards in the 1700s and Pseudo-Ephraem (Jeffrey etc. wrongfully referred to Ephraim the Syrian!) taught pretrib, they can Google "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by D.M., "Wily Jeffrey," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)," "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers," "X-Raying Margaret," "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts," "Dolcino? Duh!," "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism," and (the most shocking one of all) "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty."