Early church fathers believed we can lose salvation?

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Mitspa said:
What? Well probably because they believe as you seem to? That you need some man to tell you what words really mean and which ones you can believe. But for those who have the Spirit of truth and can believe evident words...the bible is a very simple book to read and understand with some sincerity and faith. The bible itself says in absolute terms that "you need no man teach you" ...do you believe the bible or some man?
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I believe the Bible as it was given, not as any man has determined for himself. We were given the Revelation of God to man, ONCE, Jude 3, not piecemeal with even differing interpretations. He gave ONE, and it has remained unified as He is unified with the Father.

Could you tell me which man has the Spirit, or do all of them have the Spirit and the correct understanding of scripture?

Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Wesley, some more modern ones, Fox, Campbell, White, Smith, Eddy, Russell, Thomas, Hubbard and many others. There are hundreds if not thousands of denominations all with differing interpretations. Hardly speaks well for your method, and obviously not very easy to understand.

I'll bet you have the Spirit of faith, thus what you interpret is the Truth, infallibly?
 
mikeuk said:
If that were so , how do you account for the myriad of mutually exclusive views on any topic from salvation, real presence, baptism and so on. All of these people hold opposite views with equal passion and conviction. So authority is certainly needed!
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Given that the Catholic viewpoint on all those subjects is in error to one degree or another, why would you choose them as the authority? There is only one Authority, and He has placed the Holy Spirit within us to discern His truth. The problems develop, and false doctrines like lost salvation, active signs and wonders, etc., from listening to men instead of God. And yes, I include the pope in that list of men not to listen to.
 
Viligant_Warrior said:
Given that the Catholic viewpoint on all those subjects is in error to one degree or another, why would you choose them as the authority? There is only one Authority, and He has placed the Holy Spirit within us to discern His truth. The problems develop, and false doctrines like lost salvation, active signs and wonders, etc., from listening to men instead of God. And yes, I include the pope in that list of men not to listen to.
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Yeah just as your Evangelical Calvinist/Cessastion beliefs are the way, the truth and the life :rolleyes:

Evangelical Calvinists push their brand of religion harder than anyone....Hold fast to their own interpretation of scripture that must come from the KJAV1611 and only English or it is wrong. Hold fast to the doctrine of works based salvation. Promote legalistic outward self righteousness, that promotes heart change on the inside. Preach and teach sin consciousness. Call faith righteousness a false doctrine. All of which forms false humility and is devoid of any form of Agape love...

Evangelical Calvinists are a modern day Pharisee movement if there ever was one....
 
The_highwayman said:
... your Evangelical Calvinist/Cessastion beliefs ...
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Mine? You haven't read many of my posts, huh?
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Evangelical? Yes. Believe in total depravity of man? Yes. Believe in unconditional election? Yes. Believe in eternal security? Yes.

Believe in the rest of what passes for Calvinism today? No freakin' way.

So don't try to pigeonhole me, please. I don't fit.
lol.gif
 
Viligant_Warrior said:
Mine? You haven't read many of my posts, huh?
lol.gif


Evangelical? Yes. Believe in total depravity of man? Yes. Believe in unconditional election? Yes. Believe in eternal security? Yes.

Believe in the rest of what passes for Calvinism today? No freakin' way.

So don't try to pigeonhole me, please. I don't fit.
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You pigeonholed yourself and all on your own friend
 
The_highwayman said:
You pigeonholed yourself and all on your own friend
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Well, it's nice to know I have my own personal judge to follow me around and "decide" what I believe and what I teach. Thanks.

And if you're going to call me "friend" at least smile when you do so. desismileys_3334.gif
 
Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you,

and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.



Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


( Exodus 32:33 ---- And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. )



Jude 1:21

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.



( Side note: Jude was one of the original 12 Apostles, and by his epistle we can see OSAS is was not taught to him. )
 
Cassian said:
I believe the Bible as it was given, not as any man has determined for himself. We were given the Revelation of God to man, ONCE, Jude 3, not piecemeal with even differing interpretations. He gave ONE, and it has remained unified as He is unified with the Father.

Could you tell me which man has the Spirit, or do all of them have the Spirit and the correct understanding of scripture?

Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Wesley, some more modern ones, Fox, Campbell, White, Smith, Eddy, Russell, Thomas, Hubbard and many others. There are hundreds if not thousands of denominations all with differing interpretations. Hardly speaks well for your method, and obviously not very easy to understand.

I'll bet you have the Spirit of faith, thus what you interpret is the Truth, infallibly?
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Well then read it for yourself ...you don't need a pope or prophet to tell you what the bible says in evident words...If your a real Christians and have the Holy Spirit? he will teach you.....That's what the bible itself teaches. trust the bible...not men!
 
Mitspa said:
Well then read it for yourself ...you don't need a pope or prophet to tell you what the bible says in evident words...If your a real Christians and have the Holy Spirit? he will teach you.....That's what the bible itself teaches. trust the bible...not men!
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I do, but then I also was taught what it meant so that I could correctly divide it and apply it. I don't have a Pope, I have Christ and the Holy Spirit who gave it once to the Apostles to pass on to the early Church and subsequent generations in its fullness. He did not give us a text called the Bible. The Church determined the Canon under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit. It has been that way from the beginning within the Body of Christ.


It never says trust the Bible. You are misinterpreting the text as well. It is a nice proof text that some men, like you, need to support an errant principle of sola scriptura, by taking it out of context.

But then, since you hold to that view, which is correct, yours or the other guys? I'll bet it is your personal interpretation that trumps all other men who are using the Holy Spirit as well. Or maybe worse, you believe man can develop his own way to salvation? Thus all the other interpretations are as valid as any other. There are no such thing as false teachings since all are of the Holy Spirit. Nice, quaint, just like modern man likes. His own way.
 
Cassian said:
I do, but then I also was taught what it meant so that I could correctly divide it and apply it. I don't have a Pope, I have Christ and the Holy Spirit who gave it once to the Apostles to pass on to the early Church and subsequent generations in its fullness. He did not give us a text called the Bible. The Church determined the Canon under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit. It has been that way from the beginning within the Body of Christ.


It never says trust the Bible. You are misinterpreting the text as well. It is a nice proof text that some men, like you, need to support an errant principle of sola scriptura, by taking it out of context.

But then, since you hold to that view, which is correct, yours or the other guys? I'll bet it is your personal interpretation that trumps all other men who are using the Holy Spirit as well. Or maybe worse, you believe man can develop his own way to salvation? Thus all the other interpretations are as valid as any other. There are no such thing as false teachings since all are of the Holy Spirit. Nice, quaint, just like modern man likes. His own way.
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I cant really see the point your trying to make? You seem to rail against men who teach errors against the bible...then you reject what the bible clearly says and declare you will put your trust in men? Again I say you don't need a pope or a prophet...you have Gods word and when you stand before Him you will answer for your obedience to His Word...not a man, not a pope...not some so-called prophet.
 
Mitspa said:
I cant really see the point your trying to make? You seem to rail against men who teach errors against the bible...then you reject what the bible clearly says and declare you will put your trust in men? Again I say you don't need a pope or a prophet...you have Gods word and when you stand before Him you will answer for your obedience to His Word...not a man, not a pope...not some so-called prophet.
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He's Orthodox. They don't have a Pope or prophet to lead them. Seriously get your facts straight or next you'll be attacking Lutherans for Catholicism.
 
Mitspa,

I cant really see the point your trying to make? You seem to rail against men who teach errors against the bible...then you reject what the bible clearly says and declare you will put your trust in men? Again I say you don't need a pope or a prophet...you have Gods word and when you stand before Him you will answer for your obedience to His Word...not a man, not a pope...not some so-called prophet.
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We are not speaking about obedience. We are speaking about the revelation God gave to man. He did not give us a Bible. He gave us His revelation via the Apostles. They are the only men that gave us the revelation God gave to them.
You are the man that depends on man, namely you to figure out what the Bible means. One wonders what Paul and the others did during the first 100 years when all of what became the Canon did not exist. As per bible, that did not exist until the end of the 4th century. Your understanding of how you got the Bible and what it actually represents and means is non existent.

Where did I ever say I put my trust in men. The only men were the Apostles. For the rest it all is the result of Christ as Head of His Church and the Holy Spirit guarding both the Body and His revelation as He gave it. Man has never had any authority over God's revelation. That is your whole foundation of understanding. Man has the authority to interpret a text and can develop whatever ideas he thinks he can from just a text.

scripture was derived from a much larger body of revelation which, of course, including the meaning. Did you really think God just gave us a book and told us to read it and make of it what we will, each man for himself?
 
All those who believe you can lose your salvation, believes you can do something to gain (and sometimes even lose it and regain) your salvation, ergo: they believe in salvation by works of man, not by the person and work of Jesus Christ alone. Simple.
 
Romans 13:11-14, "11 Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts."

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Psalm 11:4. " YHWH is in His holy temple; YHWH'S throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men."

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

Ephesians 6:11-17, "Put on the whole armor of YHWH, that you may be able to stand against the wiles; (crafty ways, schemes), of the devil. For we wrestle not only against flesh and blood, but also against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual forces of the evil one in the heavens. Therefore, take up the whole armor of YHWH, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day; and having overcome all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your waist belted with the truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, And having shod your feet with the preparation of the message of peace; Above all, taking the shield of the faith, with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of YHWH."
 
One cannot lose their salvation,but one can walk away from salvation.He who puts his hand to the plow...
 
kaylagrl said:
One cannot lose their salvation,but one can walk away from salvation.He who puts his hand to the plow...
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verily, verily, this is so refreshing -- God's Word. what God's Word says.


not the enemy - too many "early church fathers" are dead in their sin, never redeemed, yet still doing evil from the grave !!!

do not trust men. do not trust early church fathers, or even the apostle paul, or an angel of light , without testing,

and the early church fathers DO NOT PASS THE TEST. (of scripture). yet the antichrist uses the ecf to

defend its anti-christ doctrines.

SO IT DOESn't matter what the ecf said or taught or wrote --- the enemy uses them extensively to fake its

authority against true believers who trust in the WORD OF GOD. go back to the WORD OF GOD, not men who sinned and didn't repent.

not men (today) who don't repent of heresy. indeed, God has given them over to stupor, they will not recover,

except for if there are any who repent and turn to Him in His Mercy in Christ Jesus.
 
When coming across anything Biblical seek GOD First. If one does not confusion will come first. Confusion is from GOD's enemy satan. GOD gives us sound wisdom where satan tries to distort GOD's Truth. Consider what is Salvation? What is one Saved from? Why does one even need to be saved? If it is possible then how? GOD will answer any and all questions HE will not have us ignorant.

Now from my studies I have learned that Salvation comes in different terms such as: being Saved from a horrible accident, Repenting everyday from daily sins to work out our Salvation with fear and trembling and Salvation from eternal death.
We can look at king David who prayed to GOD that HE take not HIS SPIRIT from him, we can look at king Saul who had GOD's Spirit taken from him and we can look at JESUS who said FATHER I have lost none except the son of perdition.

GOD has offered eternal life to us all. Thing is GOD does not force us but HE does Plead with us for HIS LOVE for us is Great! If one truly has a heart for GOD there is no fear of losing anything.

Blessings!!!!!!!
 
That's kind of foolish, that's your soul not ours, if you could care less. Read the Bible - catholicism is pretty much anti Biblical, makes up a bunch of stuff on happenstance. You might want to check if you really have salvation, because if you can be talked out of it, that's just not good.
 
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