The Apostles taught Infant Baptism!

[kennethcadwell]

Therefore in Zacheus' case, salvation came to him before he was baptised in water. And as I previously stated. Jesus forgave many people their sins without the requirement they firstly be baptised in water.

Well first I would like to say how I see you only replied to my first quote, and did not copy over all the scriptures that I gave following. As they all show salvation/eternal life is not a physical possession of ours right now, as it is only a mental possession of assurance of receiving based on keeping our faith in Christ.
So to me your question is null and void because the physical possession of something can not be had until it is given, and the scriptures I showed which are only few of many show physical possession of it is reserved, kept, and waiting for us in heaven and will be given when the Lord returns and the resurrection occurs.

 

[SeaBass]

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Cornelius and his household lived under the new covenant.


A man is powerfully convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit. He sinks to his knees, tears streaming down his cheeks and begs God to forgive him his sins. He asks Christ into his life as Lord and Saviour. What will God say?

''I will forgive you, but not yet, only when you have been baptised''

Doesn't sound right to me

...and Cornelius and his household were commanded to be water baptized, Acts 10:47,48. That command alone made water baptism necessary for them but they were baptized in like manner (Acts 15:11) as the Jews in Acts 2 in the name of the Lord for remission of sins > salvation.

The issue of this thread is infant baptism and since infants have no sins to be remitted they are not candidates for water baptism.

 

[michael56]

Well first I would like to say how I see you only replied to my first quote, and did not copy over all the scriptures that I gave following. As they all show salvation/eternal life is not a physical possession of ours right now, as it is only a mental possession of assurance of receiving based on keeping our faith in Christ.
So to me your question is null and void because the physical possession of something can not be had until it is given, and the scriptures I showed which are only few of many show physical possession of it is reserved, kept, and waiting for us in heaven and will be given when the Lord returns and the resurrection occurs.

Lets change it to saved then:

[SUP] [/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8&9

 

[michael56]

...and Cornelius and his household were commanded to be water baptized, Acts 10:47,48. That command alone made water baptism necessary for them but they were baptized in like manner (Acts 15:11) as the Jews in Acts 2 in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.

But they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues BEFORE they were baptised in water, and the proof of being saved is the Holy Spirit dwells in you (Rom 8:9)

 

[posthuman]

Like the legs which are useless to the lame,
So is a proverb in the mouth of fools.
(Proverbs 26:7)

Like clouds and wind without rain
is one who boasts of gifts never given.
(Proverbs 25:14)

do these saying relate to physical baptism?
how?

i think, good to consider.

 

[kennethcadwell]

. . . kind of like preaching H[SUB]2[/SUB]O immersion saves, when it is actually the work of God that saves, and immersion in Him and by Him that sanctifies, hmm?

We are not saying water baptism by itself saves, and even though I don't agree with SeaBass on some areas I remember him saying the same. That it by itself does not save, because a true faith in Christ will have all of these in their life that was taught and commanded by the Lord. And a false mere faith will not, which is a disobedient faith that well lead to death and not eternal life.
People like me do not put emphasis on the baptism itself, we put emphasis on continuing on defending every bit of what was taught and commanded by the Lord. Because I have seen few on here saying one of the following; you don't have to get baptized, you don't need to repent, nothing in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are for us, and even you can be disobedient to His teaching and still receive salvation just because you believe in Him.
None of which is true, as the bible clearly shows a true faith is an obedient active faith !!!

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins was not part of the OT law that Zacchaeus lived under,

Hmmmmmmmmmm

Cornelius and his household lived under the new covenant.


A man is powerfully convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit. He sinks to his knees, tears streaming down his cheeks and begs God to forgive him his sins. He asks Christ into his life as Lord and Saviour. What will God say?

''I will forgive you, but not yet, only when you have been baptised''

Doesn't sound right to me

See?

This is precisely the type of "hair splitting" that I referred to earlier (but not specifically in relation to you).

I mean, Cornelius was water baptized right after he believed, so why don't we all just see the two (believing and being baptized) as two things which ought to occur on the same day or at the same time? Obviously (although not to some), the believing part has to come first, but water baptism ought to immediately follow, even as it did all throughout the book of Acts.

What does it mean to "believe" anyway?

Well, we're all familiar with the following:

Romans chapter 10

[6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above):
[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
[8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This "righteousness which is of faith" was actually in existence way back in Old Testament times and Paul actually cited from Deuteronomy as his "proof text" for what he was about to say in relation to the same. Yes, Paul cited the following:

Deuteronomy chapter 30

[11] For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
[12] It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[13] Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[14] But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Yes, this is exactly what Paul cited in Romans 10:6-8 and it has to do with a BELIEF that Jesus has "descended into the deep" AND "ascended up to heaven". If anyone BELIEVES the same, then why wouldn't they be water baptized in that water baptism signifies being buried with Christ (or descending into the deep with Him) and also being raised up and seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus when one comes out of the water (or ascending up to heaven with Him)?

Seriously, this "hair splitting", and I'm not specifically referring to you, but to others instead, simply needs to stop. If you BELIEVE that Christ died, was buried, arose from the dead and ascended back to heaven, then water baptism ought to follow immediately in that it is "the answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him" (I Peter 3:21-22).

 

[michael56]

See?

This is precisely the type of "hair splitting" that I referred to earlier (but not specifically in relation to you).

I mean, Cornelius was water baptized right after he believed, so why don't we all just see the two (believing and being baptized) as two things which ought to occur on the same day or at the same time? Obviously (although not to some), the believing part has to come first, but water baptism ought to immediately follow, even as it did all throughout the book of Acts.

What does it mean to "believe" anyway?

Well, we're all familiar with the following:

Romans chapter 10

[6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above):
[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
[8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This "righteousness which is of faith" was actually in existence way back in Old Testament times and Paul actually cited from Deuteronomy as his "proof text" for what he was about to say in relation to the same. Yes, Paul cited the following:

Deuteronomy chapter 30

[11] For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
[12] It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[13] Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[14] But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Yes, this is exactly what Paul cited in Romans 10:6-8 and it has to do with a BELIEF that Jesus has "descended into the deep" AND "ascended up to heaven". If anyone BELIEVES the same, then why wouldn't they be water baptized in that water baptism signifies being buried with Christ (or descending into the deep with Him) and also being raised up and seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus when one comes out of the water (ascending up to heaven with Him).

Seriously, this "hair splitting", and I'm not specifically referring to you, but to others instead, simply needs to stop. If you BELIEVE that Christ died, was buried, arose from the dead and ascended back to heaven, then water baptism ought to follow immediately in that it is "the answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him" (I Peter 3:21-22).

Not hair splitting at all. All should repent and be baptised, but you do not need to be firstly baptised in water to be saved.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Not hair splitting at all. All should repent and be baptised, but you do not need to be firstly baptised in water to be saved.

Again, the "hair splitting" wasn't in relation to you, but to others instead. Anyhow, I fully agree, even as I've often stated, that we need to believe FIRST, but water baptism ought to immediately follow. That's all that I'm saying.

 

[michael56]

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit Eph 1:13

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption Eph 4:30
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. [SUP]45 [/SUP]The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speaking in tongues[SUP][b][/SUP] and praising God.Then Peter said, [SUP]47 [/SUP]“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” Acts 10:44-47

 

[JesusistheChrist]

right then -- at what age do you think man becomes in need of a Savior?

wouldn't you be doing humanity justice by killing everyone the day before that age, so they could be saved?

Out of genuine curiosity, what do you think happens to infants who die? Where do they go and why?

 

[SeaBass]

See?

This is precisely the type of "hair splitting" that I referred to earlier (but not specifically in relation to you).

I mean, Cornelius was water baptized right after he believed, so why don't we all just see the two (believing and being baptized) as two things which ought to occur on the same day or at the same time? Obviously (although not to some), the believing part has to come first, but water baptism ought to immediately follow, even as it did all throughout the book of Acts.

What does it mean to "believe" anyway?

Well, we're all familiar with the following:

Romans chapter 10

[6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above):
[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
[8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This "righteousness which is of faith" was actually in existence way back in Old Testament times and Paul actually cited from Deuteronomy as his "proof text" for what he was about to say in relation to the same. Yes, Paul cited the following:

Deuteronomy chapter 30

[11] For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
[12] It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[13] Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
[14] But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Yes, this is exactly what Paul cited in Romans 10:6-8 and it has to do with a BELIEF that Jesus has "descended into the deep" AND "ascended up to heaven". If anyone BELIEVES the same, then why wouldn't they be water baptized in that water baptism signifies being buried with Christ (or descending into the deep with Him) and also being raised up and seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus when one comes out of the water (or ascending up to heaven with Him)?

Seriously, this "hair splitting", and I'm not specifically referring to you, but to others instead, simply needs to stop. If you BELIEVE that Christ died, was buried, arose from the dead and ascended back to heaven, then water baptism ought to follow immediately in that it is "the answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him" (I Peter 3:21-22).

Yes, baptism is part of believing. One's belief is dead until he is baptized,

Acts 2:41,44
verse 41 "then they that gladly received his word were baptized"
verse 44 "And all that believed were together..."

Who are the ones that "believed" in verse 44? The ones that accepted Peter's words and baptized? Or the ones that rejected Peter's words and not baptized? Obviously the ones that "believed" in 44 are the ones baptized so "believed" in v44 INCLUDES being baptized. The construction of verse 41 implies as long as one is not baptized he continues to reject the gospel message.

Since infants are not capable of believing therefore cannot baptism.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Lets change it to saved then:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8&9

Once again the works being spoken of here by Paul though is those that people would use to say they earned their salvation through works, which nobody can do.

It is not speaking of righteous works done in love for the Lord that work hand and hand with our faith unto salvation that shows a true faith.
And Romans 8:9 is not the only scripture that shows the Holy Spirit shows proof of a true faith, as 1 John chapters 2-4 break down what will be in a true believers life as well.


Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[michael56]

Once again the works being spoken of here by Paul though is those that people would use to say they earned their salvation through works, which nobody can do.

It is not speaking of righteous works done in love for the Lord that work hand and hand with our faith unto salvation that shows a true faith.
And Romans 8:9 is not the only scripture that shows the Holy Spirit shows proof of a true faith, as 1 John chapters 2-4 break down what will be in a true believers life as well.


Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit Eph 1:13

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption Eph 4:30
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. [SUP]45 [/SUP]The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speaking in tongues[SUP][b][/SUP] and praising God.Then Peter said, [SUP]47 [/SUP]“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” Acts 10:44-47

 

[Jeff_56]

people will believe what they believe about where unborn babies and infants go.

hasatan's henchmen in the rcc will do anything and everything to keep them from ever finding the truth.

only a few ever were saved - and they were kicked out by the pope.

yahweh is perfect, just, righteous, merciful and knows exactly what to do. let him do what he does,

and agree that he is right. agree that he knows and always does what is just and perfect.

men always corrupt what yahweh creates and what yahweh says. men follow demons usually.

little
children
are in yahweh's hands, to do with as he pleases. his judgment is perfect, flawless, without error.

believe him, seek him, do as he says. by faith and grace in yahshua. follow no man. no idols.

 

[posthuman]

Out of genuine curiosity, what do you think happens to infants who die? Where do they go and why?

would you be willing to answer this first -- do they meet a different fate if they have been baptized than if they have not?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

OK, to the OP ...

You title a thread "The Apostles taught infant baptism" and then quote ...

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248] ...

... Irenaeus ...

... Hippolytus ...

... Origen ...

... John Chrysostom ...

... Augustine ...

... none of whom were apostles, and obviously imposed their own concepts on the actual apostolic teaching on which they commented, getting those teaching wrong.

So your thread is mistitled, and also wrong. And it took 176 posts prior to this one to discuss obvious error?? Really?

 

[kennethcadwell]

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit Eph 1:13

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption Eph 4:30
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. [SUP]45 [/SUP]The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speaking in tongues[SUP][b][/SUP] and praising God.Then Peter said, [SUP]47 [/SUP]“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” Acts 10:44-47

Yes I know those scriptures, and they do not defend infant baptism nor do they do away with water immersion in baptism.
Grieve the Holy Spirit means you turn your back on God, and commit the unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You deny His power, authority, and guidance in your life to keep you in the faith walking properly in righteousness unto eternal life.

Read Jude as his whole epistle is about eternal life salvation, and then look at Exodus 32:33 and how it applies.

 

[michael56]

Yes I know those scriptures, and they do not defend infant baptism nor do they do away with water immersion in baptism.
Grieve the Holy Spirit means you turn your back on God, and commit the unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You deny His power, authority, and guidance in your life to keep you in the faith walking properly in righteousness unto eternal life.

Read Jude as his whole epistle is about eternal life salvation, and then look at Exodus 32:33 and how it applies.

Those scriptures prove unequivocally you do not need to be baptised in water to be saved

BTW

I believe all saved Christians- (through repentance and faith in Christ) should be baptised in water

 

[JesusistheChrist]

would you be willing to answer this first -- do they meet a different fate if they have been baptized than if they have not?

If you've been reading my posts on this thread, then you should already know my answer to this question, but I'll give it again:

No, they meet no different fate if they have been baptized than if they have not been baptized.

Infants who cannot discern between good and evil are considered to be innocent before the Lord and I believe that this is taught in scripture...and I just posted one such portion of scripture earlier today on this very thread.

Now, would you please tell me your views in relation to the same?

Thanks.